tPoD Attack by "Dashiva"

[FossMaNo1]

Okay, so I just finished me reread of tPoD. Why did "Dashiva" decide to try and assasinate Rand suddenly? The DO wanted the Dragon alive. Is it possible that "Dashiva" lost it out of anger (and maybe no small amount of self-preservation) due to Rand himself losing it with Calandor against the Seanchan?

[Suttree]

Taim ordered that attack...it seems as for Dashiva he just took the opportunity to jump in with Gedwyn and Rochaid. Check out the faq on it.

 

http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/node/59.html

[Hael Me]

But why did Dashiva take the opportunity? Earlier in the book Rand revealed that he had plans to cleanse Saidin, and Dashiva looked "poleaxed" when he heard that. I think that information from Rand caused Dashiva to attack.

[Durinax]

I think it was an move inthat game of chess by making rand think those closest to him are against him

[brolie]

well the dark one wants him alive but the forsaken still want him dead.. and then there was the meeting with the forsaken when they all freak out when they realize that he might actually cleanse saidin and how that would be bad for the male forsaken bc then the DO wouldn't have his grasp on the male forsaken... pretty sure that meeting is right before the attack... but dashiva being aginor, he was prolly still trying to kill him as a forsaken, the same as the rest of the forsaken.. and taim also has all of his followers so he could have put out the word for the attack to try to claim rights to being the dragon reborn or something of the like... since taim is trying to take over and what not...

[Terez]

well the dark one wants him alive but the forsaken still want him dead.. and then there was the meeting with the forsaken when they all freak out when they realize that he might actually cleanse saidin and how that would be bad for the male forsaken bc then the DO wouldn't have his grasp on the male forsaken... pretty sure that meeting is right before the attack...

It's after the attack, in WH 13. It's in Demandred's POV and, he bitches about how Dashiva and the other idiots failed in Cairhien. Taim ordered that attack, and Demandred and Moridin both ordered the renegades to Far Madding after that meeting.

[brolie]

then i would say it was just aginor and taim wanting rand dead for whatever reasons

[Terez]

I think they knew before the Cairhien attack that Rand wanted to cleanse saidin via Torval, but no one took it seriously until Cyndane spilled the beans about the Choedan Kal. Apparently no one knew he had them before then. And that is the point at which Moridin joined in and said 'kill him if you must, but above all, bring me his stuff'.

 

I think part of the plan was to drive him into hiding - which is exactly what happened after Far Madding and the cleansing. I doubt Taim believed they could pull it off - Demandred seems upset about their failure but that seems OOC, doesn't it? Though I suppose this might have been the time during which Moridin was gently easing Taim out from underneath Demandred's control - but Torval and Gedwyn in particular had already had some failures in Altara, and the bit about the Tar Valon coin when Eagan Padros made his assassination attempt was just about as obvious as it gets (which is why Rand Therin wanted to kill them). Gedwyn was trying to get Weiramon to do something more direct (aside from just not protecting Rand quite well enough), but Weiramon didn't want to take the risk (probably because he'd already gotten his ass chewed).

 

Technically, Rand first mentioned his plan to Taim way back in LOC, so if Torval immediately reported Rand's plan when he heard of it in TPOD then it might have only gone so high up as Taim, which led to Eagan Padros, Weiramon, and Cairhien. Was Moridin in on it then? It's hard to say. If he wasn't involved, then it seems Osan'gar was taking orders from Taim, as Demandred doesn't seem to consider himself in any way responsible for the failure, and Osan'gar seems to agree. Or perhaps Demandred was ordering both Taim and Osan'gar; Moridin seemed to take his time in taking command. If Moridin was involved with Cairhien (presumably using the chain of command and giving orders only to Taim and/or Demandred and Osan'gar), then Osan'gar was playing dumb quite well (which Demandred suspected Graendal of doing, which was probably also true). Anyway, Moridin might have known about the Choedan Kal for a long time, but after the failure at Cairhien he decided to get serious and involve the other Chosen, and give some direct orders to grunts to convey to them the gravity of the situation. His direct order to the Chosen to go after Rand as soon as they felt him (and Nynaeve) using the Choedan Kal had a side-purpose of getting them to take action beforehand (like Demandred's order for Far Madding) so they wouldn't be forced to go head to head against an exponentially superior force.

[Entreri]

Little Agnior was probably just terrified in general, of Rand, Ishamael...rest of the Forsaken.

 

His terror may have led him to act irrationally.

[OptimusPrime]

If memory serves, and its been a while, didnt Taim act shocked that Dashiva had been discovered? I have in my head that Rand told Taim Dashiva was a traitor and Taim was surprised.

 

I dont think Aginor was told to kill Rand.

[Terez]

If memory serves, and its been a while, didnt Taim act shocked that Dashiva had been discovered? I have in my head that Rand told Taim Dashiva was a traitor and Taim was surprised.

 

I dont think Aginor was told to kill Rand.

Or he was ordered to by Moridin. But you're correct, Taim was surprised that Dashiva was with them (at the end of TPOD when Taim shows up).

[OptimusPrime]

If memory serves, and its been a while, didnt Taim act shocked that Dashiva had been discovered? I have in my head that Rand told Taim Dashiva was a traitor and Taim was surprised.

 

I dont think Aginor was told to kill Rand.

Or he was ordered to by Moridin. But you're correct, Taim was surprised that Dashiva was with them (at the end of TPOD when Taim shows up).

 

It seemed to me ike Aginor was just surprised at Rand seeing him and lashed out. No need for a masterplan. I cant see Moridin ordering any of the Chosen to kill Rand, considering they are the most capable of the Shadows tools. Sending idiots after Rand (Kisman) as lesser hurdles to delay himn is fine, but sending a Chosen to do it, who actually has a chance of succeeding, I doubt it very much. Just look at his reaction to Semirhages attack. Im not a genius on timelines but I imagined Agi and Semis attack to be not that long apart

[sizer213]

Aginor is off his rocker it seems to me so maybe there is no major reason for his attack, he is one of the forsaken and maybe he panicked and his mind would not let him realize what he was doing before he revealed himself. Course then again what do I know, most likely nothing at all what I think.

[jwood01]

If memory serves, and its been a while, didnt Taim act shocked that Dashiva had been discovered? I have in my head that Rand told Taim Dashiva was a traitor and Taim was surprised.

 

I dont think Aginor was told to kill Rand.

Or he was ordered to by Moridin. But you're correct, Taim was surprised that Dashiva was with them (at the end of TPOD when Taim shows up).

 

It seemed to me ike Aginor was just surprised at Rand seeing him and lashed out. No need for a masterplan. I cant see Moridin ordering any of the Chosen to kill Rand, considering they are the most capable of the Shadows tools. Sending idiots after Rand (Kisman) as lesser hurdles to delay himn is fine, but sending a Chosen to do it, who actually has a chance of succeeding, I doubt it very much. Just look at his reaction to Semirhages attack. Im not a genius on timelines but I imagined Agi and Semis attack to be not that long apart

 

I haven't done a re-read of tPoD in over a year, but I think you may be on to something. Did Dashiva/Aginor/Osan'Gar participate in the surprise attack? Or was the only time he did anything when Rand saw him arguing with G&R?

 

As a chosen he probably would've known that G&R were darkfriends. Maybe he was confronting them: "Hey what the hell are you guys doing? The DO doesn't want him dead!" Then Rand comes around the corner and sees Dashiva arguing with them, and Dashiva knows that Rand may lump him in with G&R, so he throws a nasty web at Rand and gets the hell out of dodge.

[Suttree]

Found this quote from RJ...

 

TOR Questions of the Week, February 2005-July 2005

 

Week 21 Question: One thing that's always confused me is just why Dashiva/Osan'gar chose to attack Rand (with the turncoat Asha'man) when he did. The last time we saw Rand with Dashiva before that was when they went together (with Flinn, Hopwil and Morr) to confront Cadsuane, and there didn't seem to be any one particular incident that would "set him off."

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Partly this was guilty conscience working. Even people who don't have a conscience can have a guilty conscience, the sudden conviction - as when Rand came on Dashiva and the others - that somebody knows what they are up to. Add to this that Dashiva was plain getting tired of trailing around after Rand, taking orders. He's one of the Chosen, and the Dark One reclaimed him from death, which is really good, but he's been stuck in a decidedly second-rate body and stuck spying on Rand, fetching and carrying like a servant as he sees it, with hardly even an opportunity to put a spoke in Rand's wheels except in very minor ways. How much better if Rand simply died.

[sizer213]

Found this quote from RJ...

 

TOR Questions of the Week, February 2005-July 2005

 

Week 21 Question: One thing that's always confused me is just why Dashiva/Osan'gar chose to attack Rand (with the turncoat Asha'man) when he did. The last time we saw Rand with Dashiva before that was when they went together (with Flinn, Hopwil and Morr) to confront Cadsuane, and there didn't seem to be any one particular incident that would "set him off."

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Partly this was guilty conscience working. Even people who don't have a conscience can have a guilty conscience, the sudden conviction - as when Rand came on Dashiva and the others - that somebody knows what they are up to. Add to this that Dashiva was plain getting tired of trailing around after Rand, taking orders. He's one of the Chosen, and the Dark One reclaimed him from death, which is really good, but he's been stuck in a decidedly second-rate body and stuck spying on Rand, fetching and carrying like a servant as he sees it, with hardly even an opportunity to put a spoke in Rand's wheels except in very minor ways. How much better if Rand simply died.

 

awesome! Thank you.