Fain and the Dark One

[Suttree]

Not even the creator can destroy the DO, it had to seal the DO away.

 

Where is this in the books? I thought it was clear that the Creator could destroy the DO but didn't and doesn't because the DO is necessary to the Creator's pattern (need both light and dark for the weave).

 

Well we know the DO and Creator are the only two things outside of the pattern. I don't think he can destroy him because...

 

Compuserve Chat 26 June 1996

 

Martin Reznick: How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?

RJ: I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator carrying on the theme, the yin yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books . . . it's somewhat Manichean I know, but I think it works.

 

This to me implies they are equal.

[gloweye]

It's theoratically imposiible for fain to kill DO. DO exists oufside of the pattern, while fain is part of ot. therefore, he cannot even reach the DO.

[Tyzack]

I like the idea that the sealing/weakening it linked to the "Dragon soul" so that selling of the Bore will somehow be the Dragon wrapping his essence around the DO, then die/getting killed/balefired so that both are "beyond the pattern." The pattern will weaken again the next time the dragon soul is reborn, etc, etc.

[Suttree]

The pattern will weaken again the next time the dragon soul is reborn, etc, etc.

 

But we know the Dragon Soul is born in times when there is no knowledge of the DO or even channeling.

 

The Path of Daggers book tour 22 October 1998, Los Angeles - Pam Basham reporting

 

 

Q: "Is [the Dragon] soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age. In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this soul. This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation. (My interpretation.)

[Guest PiotrekS]

Not even the creator can destroy the DO, it had to seal the DO away.

 

Where is this in the books? I thought it was clear that the Creator could destroy the DO but didn't and doesn't because the DO is necessary to the Creator's pattern (need both light and dark for the weave).

 

Well we know the DO and Creator are the only two things outside of the pattern. I don't think he can destroy him because...

 

Compuserve Chat 26 June 1996

 

Martin Reznick: How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?

RJ: I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator carrying on the theme, the yin yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books . . . it's somewhat Manichean I know, but I think it works.

 

This to me implies they are equal.

 

I agree that it implies they are equal.

 

Other problems raise from this though. If they are equal, how could the Creator have sealed the DO and why is the DO unable to get out on his own?

 

We also have this:

RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME. For an instant terrible anger filled that awful voice, and – could it be frustration? An instant only.

(LoC Prologue)

 

It seems the DO is limited in his ability to "step outside of time". How is that consistent with him being outside the Pattern?

[tad10]

 

 

I agree that it implies they are equal.

 

 

They are not equal. If the DO was the Creator's equal the Creator could not have imprisioned him in SG and kept him there. Creator >> DO

 

Doesn't matter what Jordon said - the internal logic of the books dictates that they are not equal.

 

Edit: I'll add that of course the books and Jordan's comment put the DO's power in the same league as Creator, and far above anyone or anything else in the books, but still the DO's power is less than the big C.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

 

I agree that it implies they are equal.

 

 

They are not equal. If the DO was the Creator's equal the Creator could not have imprisioned him in SG and kept him there. Creator >> DO

 

Doesn't matter what Jordon said - the internal logic of the books dictates that they are not equal.

 

Edit: I'll add that of course the books and Jordan's comment put the DO's power in the same league as Creator, and far above anyone or anything else in the books, but still the DO's power is less than the big C.

 

This is discussed in another topic.

 

Basically, to shorten the point.

 

The people of the pattern are mistaken.

 

THe DO isn't "imprisoned". He exists OUTSIDE the pattern. It is actually the Pattern that is imprisoned, or has a metaphorical wall around it to keep the DO out. Of course, it takes some time to get inside, but it is not impossible.

 

Edit: Here is a link: http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/66045-the-true-nature-of-the-creator-and-dark-one/page__pid__2092066#entry2092066

 

Also, you make a good point, it was something I also questioned, but a word of warning, its probably best NOT to disagree with RJ/BS comments made, there might be a whole lot of rage against you. Just a word of warning

[tad10]

 

 

Also, you make a good point, it was something I also questioned, but a word of warning, its probably best NOT to disagree with RJ/BS comments made, there might be a whole lot of rage against you. Just a word of warning

 

Lol warning noted. With respect to the theory - I think the pattern/world are part of the prison of the DO so he wants to destroy it to break free of the pattern and time.

[Mordaunt]

The Mist will shoot out from Fain and take Rand in the neck. Rand will accept the Corruption as it was his Choice (important theme) and his skin will boil etc as he collapses. He will resurrect in the nature of corrupted trollocs, and Fain will dance with glee. Fain will then get a look of horror on his face as the corrupted Rand, trollocs and himself burst into shards of light. The Dark One will then transport Rand's body on a litter carried on the shoulders of Fades away for mysterious burial, and there will be a Truce with the Shadow. Min will see coloured halo flashes above people's heads in the sky, and will talk softly to Olver about the future.

 

Any similarities to the end of The Matrix Revolutions are purely coincidental.

[Eht Slat Meit]

my question is how does slayer not find fain, I dont get how slayer cannot locate him

 

Slayer locates people through their dreams, doesn't he? I would imagine that all of Fain's dreams are nightmares, and Slayer dislike those as much as Perrin does.

[Suttree]

 

 

I agree that it implies they are equal.

 

 

They are not equal. If the DO was the Creator's equal the Creator could not have imprisioned him in SG and kept him there. Creator >> DO

 

Doesn't matter what Jordon said - the internal logic of the books dictates that they are not equal.

 

Doesn't matter what Jordan said? Yeah because I'm sure he doesn't know?

 

If you haven't noticed there is a pretty heavy theme of opposites and balance running throughout the text. RJ's quote states fairly clearly how that applies to the DO and Creator. There are valid questions raised as to how he would be able to seal him away, I will grant you that. I prefer not to make assumptions however until we have a clear understanding of how it happened.

[number13]

Here's a left-field suggestion.

 

One of the female Forsaken will do it. One of the victims of his little punishments.