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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Tinkers save the Aiel


Mystica
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I admit that this is a wild theory, but I like the idea of it and it would be a nice twist to bring something full circle.

This idea occurred to me after having read some of the threads here and especially after having read someone's thoughts outlining the difference between prophecies that act as recognition signs and prophesies that act as warning signs. Or otherwise put: the difference between the Prophesies and the Finn predictions.

 

Aviendha saw the damnation of the Aiel in her third trip through the columns. One of the mentioned reason was that the Aiel were left without a purpose, without direction and so the way was open for bad choices to be made leading to their own destruction.

 

The Finn are known to give predictions in the form of: 'if you do this, that will happen.' or 'if you don't do this, that will happen'.

 

There is also a rule concerning not bringing any musical instruments in to the Finnland as part of the bargain made with them.

 

The Tinkers have been looking for 'the Song' ever since they started out in their current form.

 

Moiraine is back, one of the very few AS that has the respect and trust of both Aiel Wise Ones and Tinkers alike (she's been known to use Tinkers to deliver messages before). She's also high on the Dragon's trust list, even more so than Egwene. She has first hand experience of dealing with the Finn, the dangers of doing so and the manner in which to prevent dealings with them from turning to disaster.

 

 

Now what if....

 

Moiraine re-unites with the Dragon and with the Aiel Wise Ones. They exchange experiences and the Wise Ones learn about the Finn. Aviendha returns to discuss her viewing of the future and the Wise Ones discuss how to prevent this future from happening. One option is voiced: ask the Finn what needs to be done in order to avoid that future.

--> Danger: the price the Finn will ask.

 

Meanwhile the Tinkers find their long sought Song. Moiraine summons some of her Tinker contacts and brings them in contact with the Wise Ones. They share information, informing the Tinkers of their joint origin with Moiraine confirming it for truth (which the Tinkers will accept, since AS can not lie).

 

A decision is made to send a delegation of Wise Ones and Tinkers to the Finn to retrieve the sollution to their problem. The Tinker member(s) brings with them the Song, which isn't a musical instrument (and thus is not against the agreement made with the Finn) but is powerful enough to subdue the Finn. Perhaps one of the Tinkers sacrifices themselves, paying the price required to receive the answer.

 

The Finn give the answer to the delegation who sets off to change the damning future of the Aiel. The Aiel, who are now indepted to the Tinkers, having gained a 'toh that can not be met but can never be stopped trying to meet'. They take up once again their ancient role of guarding and protecting the Tinkers and through time the two become one again, culminating in the next Age of Legend in the original way of the Jenn Aiel.

 

 

 

Like I said, pretty wild theory lol. But it would be really cool if the Tinkers were the ones to save the Aiel. :biggrin:

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Well, there are quite a number of problems with your theory. For one there is no one "Song", that's a myth which was founded on the singing the aiel did in the AOL. Besides it was a joint effort of Ogier and Aiel which was I believe guided by a Nym.

Also the split of the Tuatha'an and the Aiel was prior to the split of the current Aiel and the Jenn. So there never was an ancient role of protecting the Tinkers.

And thirdly the future of an entire people is far too complex for three questions to be of much help. What kind of questions would you even ask? After all it's not like there is only one possible future for the Aiel.

Finally, how would they even get there? The Tower of Ghenjei is suicide without Mat to change the odds and even then it's deadly. The sandstone doorway doesn't allow parties to pass through together, it separates all those who go through, and there seems to be a limit on how many people the Finn can have in their realm at any given time.

Edited by b3arz3rg3r
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To make this easier to talk about, I'm going to distinguish 3 groups (otherwise we're going to get confused on which Aiel we're talking about).

note: the names I'll use are my own fabrications. I know they're not official or book-sanctioned. It's just a term used to distinguish the three groups. So don't lynch me on this.

 

1. Aiel: later known as Jenn Aiel, who stayed true to their original ways and maintained their promise to the AoL Aes Sedai.

2. Waste Aiel: the ones that decided to start fighting back and later became known as simply Aiel.

3. Tinker Aiel: the ones that broke off from their promise to the AoL Aes Sedai and set out to find the song and a safe settlement for themselves. They became the Tuatha'An, aka Tinkers.

 

When I refer to the Waste Aiel protecting the others, I referred to their original decision to follow the Aiel wagons (despite the latter having banned them and declared they were no longer Aiel). Since both Waste and Tinker Aiel originated from the same group, I felt (and feel) that it would be a nice 'return to their roots' to make the journey as a people in reverse from where they've split off. That doesn't mean it needs to happen in the same reversed chronological order. Which wouldn't even be possible, since the Jenn Aiel eventually died off and none are now existing. The Tinkers are the closest to the original Aiel currently living.

 

At first, the Tinkers may not welcome the Waste Aiel, but neither will they do anything to stop them, for confrontation is not their way. What is their way is try to pursuade people to join them in the Way of the Leaf and it's not unthinkable that, over the span of many years, the Tinkers may start to influence the Waste Aiel to adopt their way of life (which would be the Waste Aiel's original way of life, and thus a return to their roots). Eventually, after perhaps hundreds (if not a few thousands) of years, the Aiel could once again be as they used to be in the Age of Legends. One people, dedicated to peace, brave beyond words and committed to serving the Aes Sedai. AoL Aes Sedai, meaning both male and female AS (who, by then would have re-united as well, since we're talking about the 'wheel' of time and each Age is bound to return.

 

 

The trip to Finnland would not be as outrageous, after the Wise Ones learn about Moiraine's experience as well as what was done to retrieve her. With the faith of their entire people in the ropes, the Wise Ones will do whatever it takes, including something as dangerous as risking a trip to Finnland. According to Aviendha's third trip through the glass columns, the Waste Aiel are doomed anyway. They have nothing left to lose and everything to gain from taking the risk.

 

The three questions would not be any more difficult than the ones Moiraine asked the first time through. She, Rand and Mat all went to the Finn, all asking questions concerning the Dragon Reborn (directly or, in Mat's case, indirectly through his own role in teh story). I think the faith of the world outweighs the faith of one culture (in this case the Aiel). If they could do it, so can the Aiel now. They have a major advantage in having Moiraine and Rand and Mat and Thom, each having had personal experience and can offer advise and aid. I don't think Mat is needed in this and I don't think he'll be involved in it (if it were to happen). But the knowledge is nevertheless available. Which is more than Moiraine, Rand or Mat had the first time through.

 

 

As for the Song.... I hope that this was not a red herring (or however it's spelled). We've been slapped around with this Song business since the first book. I want it to have some meaning :tongue:

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I believe all the doorways are destroyed (that we know of), and there is no other way to get to them save the ToG, which would require a key to leave alive. If the doorway in the Stone was still in one piece, then visiting them could be a good idea, but with no way out it would be pointless.

 

 

Maybe some Tinkers could walk through the columns and see their past (if what Avi did wasn't a permanent thing) and gain remembrance of the song that they once sang. For now the only people that might remember it would be Rand, Aiel clan chiefs and wise ones.

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Yes, but one of the questions could be formulated to provide them a way out safely (would need to be better formulated than Mat's lol) and then they'd still have two questions to find out how to save the Waste Aiel from their faith. Granted, the questions would need to be VERY well formulated, so that they cover as much ground as possible, but it's not undoable.

 

And with the price being one of them sacrificing themselves, this could be the trigger to lock the Aiel to the Tinkers through their bonedeep belief in Ji'e'toh.

 

I don't really see the Tinkers going through the glass columns. They have no reason to do so, while for the Aiel it's always been a part of their culture. For the Tinkers it would suffice to have an Aes Sedai confirm the story (if she spoke directly, without any room for interpretation, as Moiraine has done in the past) and they would believe it. Still, it would not shock them as it did the Aiel, nore would it make them more malliable to the Aiel (since they already consider them Lost Ones, the highest level of insult a Tinker will give another person).

 

However, if the Aes Sedai (and the Dragon) tell them that the future depends on their cooperation, I can see the Tinkers stepping up to the plate to help out.

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When I refer to the Waste Aiel protecting the others, I referred to their original decision to follow the Aiel wagons (despite the latter having banned them and declared they were no longer Aiel). Since both Waste and Tinker Aiel originated from the same group, I felt (and feel) that it would be a nice 'return to their roots' to make the journey as a people in reverse from where they've split off. That doesn't mean it needs to happen in the same reversed chronological order. Which wouldn't even be possible, since the Jenn Aiel eventually died off and none are now existing. The Tinkers are the closest to the original Aiel currently living.

 

At first, the Tinkers may not welcome the Waste Aiel, but neither will they do anything to stop them, for confrontation is not their way. What is their way is try to pursuade people to join them in the Way of the Leaf and it's not unthinkable that, over the span of many years, the Tinkers may start to influence the Waste Aiel to adopt their way of life (which would be the Waste Aiel's original way of life, and thus a return to their roots). Eventually, after perhaps hundreds (if not a few thousands) of years, the Aiel could once again be as they used to be in the Age of Legends. One people, dedicated to peace, brave beyond words and committed to serving the Aes Sedai. AoL Aes Sedai, meaning both male and female AS (who, by then would have re-united as well, since we're talking about the 'wheel' of time and each Age is bound to return.

 

Each age is bound return sure, but that does not mean that everything is the same each time. Sure the core may stay the same. The cycle of the DO being found, freed, fought, sealed and again forgotten, but aside from that many things can change each time in my opinion. So it's not as if the Aiel had to end up in the exact same position as they did in the AOL perhaps the next time around another people has bound itself to peace and service to the Aes Sedai.

 

The trip to Finnland would not be as outrageous, after the Wise Ones learn about Moiraine's experience as well as what was done to retrieve her. With the faith of their entire people in the ropes, the Wise Ones will do whatever it takes, including something as dangerous as risking a trip to Finnland. According to Aviendha's third trip through the glass columns, the Waste Aiel are doomed anyway. They have nothing left to lose and everything to gain from taking the risk.

 

You mean having a ta'veren around who can counter the effects of the space/time manipulation of the Finn and who possesses the key to leaving the ToG? Yeah good luck for the Wise Ones to find one like Mat. Cause without Mat each expedition would be nothing but suicide. They wouldn't even make it to the chamber of bonds.

 

The three questions would not be any more difficult than the ones Moiraine asked the first time through. She, Rand and Mat all went to the Finn, all asking questions concerning the Dragon Reborn (directly or, in Mat's case, indirectly through his own role in teh story). I think the faith of the world outweighs the faith of one culture (in this case the Aiel). If they could do it, so can the Aiel now. They have a major advantage in having Moiraine and Rand and Mat and Thom, each having had personal experience and can offer advise and aid. I don't think Mat is needed in this and I don't think he'll be involved in it (if it were to happen). But the knowledge is nevertheless available. Which is more than Moiraine, Rand or Mat had the first time through.

 

The three questions would be far more difficult than those Rand, Mat and Moiraine asked. The three were asking questions about specific events, the Aiel would be asking about a very nebulous future. There are far too many options for the Finn to give them useful answers. They only know about those from Aviendha's future and they can't just ask how they can avert Aviendha's vision. Cause really the easiest way would be to kill Aviendha before she gets any kids. There, vision averted. Doesn't mean that the future of the Aiel would be any less bleak.

Nor can they simply ask how can the Aiel prosper. There are countless ways the Aiel can prosper or doom themselves and the only thing they can trust the Finn to do is to choose the way which suited them the most and not necessarily the Aiel. There are countless junctions in the future relying on the Finn to lead them to a brighter future is beyond reckless. It's stupid.

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hey, this fantasy. One person's stupid is another's success series.

 

But yeah, I hear what you're saying and like I said, it was a pretty wild idea to start out with. I still think it would be a killer kick if the Tinkers somehow end up saving the Aiel and that was the first option that came to mind.

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I believe all the doorways are destroyed (that we know of), and there is no other way to get to them save the ToG, which would require a key to leave alive. If the doorway in the Stone was still in one piece, then visiting them could be a good idea, but with no way out it would be pointless.

 

 

Maybe some Tinkers could walk through the columns and see their past (if what Avi did wasn't a permanent thing) and gain remembrance of the song that they once sang. For now the only people that might remember it would be Rand, Aiel clan chiefs and wise ones.

 

Only the one from Rhuidean was destroyed. The one in the Stone should still be there unless it's been carted off to the White Tower by now.

 

In any case, I think the Tinker's quest for "the song" is doomed since, like someone mentioned, the song they are looking for required Aiel, Ogier AND Nym to work, and there are no more Nym since Shomesta was the last and he was killed by Aginor and Balthamel. Now, it's possible Rand could teach them something of the song since he has Lews Therin's memories from AoL and it is hinted in TEOTW prologue that Lews Therin probably knew something about it since when he sees Ishamael he asks him if he has "the voice" and mentions singing. Not to mention he was the most powerful Aes Sedai of his time so it would stand to reason he would know something of it. Rand might even be able to tell the 3rd agers how to create Nym again if he survives the last battle intact.

 

Given all the hints we've been given about the Tinkers playing some kind of important role (Egwene finding a Tinker camp using need in TAR, and the blood scrawled message left on the wagon to name a couple) and the fact Rand stays with the Tinkers for a night right before VoG... I'm sure their part in the story is far from over, but from a narrative perspective I think a romp to Finnland seems highly unlikely as a way to save an entire people, especially since the Finns are clearly evil from our point of view.

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Wolf, you just restored my dream! For that you'll be mentioned in my will. Not that I'll leave you anything, or that there will be anything to be left, but you'll be mentioned. ;)

 

That's right, the one in Tear hasn't been destroyed (I don't think? didn't the building it was in get demolished? though I doubt that would be enough to destroy a ter'angreal). In any case, I'm clinging to that. For now.

 

The Finn are evil, yes, but they're also bound by the agreement made. It's up to those entering to have the wits to use the terms of the agreement to their own advantage. Just because the Finn are better at it, doesn't mean they can't be beaten at it.

 

Anyway, the how isn't so important than the idea of the Tinkers saving the Aiel (directly, not indirectly by saving the world through participating in the LB) and with it starting the process of reuniting them as one people (again, this would have to happen over many hundreds of years at least).

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While it's true that we haven't seen the doorway ter'angreal in the stone of Tear destroyed specifically, we do know that its counterpart in Finnland is broken to bits. When they were going to the chamber of bonds, they passed the room with the melted doorway that was linked to the one in Rhuidean. Later, Mat's luck took him to the room with the other way out of there when Thom asked about it. They were in that room when Mat made his famous escape with the Ashandarei. So even if the doorway in Tear was still whole and allowed passage somehow, there would be no way back for anyone that tried.

 

That doorway leads to 3 answers, not three requests. Thus they could use a question to find out how to get back home, which would be met with an cryptic answer about using a key that they don't have.

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