Men in the White Tower

[Zentari]

I don't know what argument is getting blown where but one thing is indisputable: the idea of free will. People make their own choices. Pattern can influence people to a certain extent, especially those who are already willing. Pattern cannot make people do something they don't want to do.

 

Now have fun debating it for sake of it.

Let' quote it then :

She can be his equal in "importance" and "power" if not OP. Dragon has power because people give him that kind of authority. Without people, he is just a channeler, his strength in OP notwithstanding

Something which is false.

Also, what about the Aes Sedai who swore? Was it their own choice ? Yes, but they were pushed into that position.

[WhiskyJack]

I don't know what argument is getting blown where but one thing is indisputable: the idea of free will. People make their own choices. Pattern can influence people to a certain extent, especially those who are already willing. Pattern cannot make people do something they don't want to do.

 

Now have fun debating it for sake of it.

Let' quote it then :

She can be his equal in "importance" and "power" if not OP. Dragon has power because people give him that kind of authority. Without people, he is just a channeler, his strength in OP notwithstanding

Something which is false.

Also, what about the Aes Sedai who swore? Was it their own choice ? Yes, but they were pushed into that position.

 

 

I hope you are trying to make a point. I just don't see it. Yes arguing for the sake of it...

[Zentari]

I hope you are trying to make a point. I just don't see it. Yes arguing for the sake of it...

The point is that you are wrong, pretty simple to grasp really.

[WhiskyJack]

I hope you are trying to make a point. I just don't see it. Yes arguing for the sake of it...

The point is that you are wrong, pretty simple to grasp really.

 

 

Take a break, Zentari. You are not the first or last fanboy.

 

Thing is , it's not an election.If the Dragon needs you, the pattern is gonna shove you under, one way or another.You don't get a vote for that.The Dragon is special because he affects the pattern, and is in turn affected by it , not because people flock to his banner.

 

What a ridiculous thing to say. Can I try your logic on Demandred for example?

[Barid Bel Medar]

To make it simpler, look at Verin in tGS.

 

Look at Rand the whole time. He didnt want to do half of the things he has done. But he has been pushed to it by the pattern.

 

Look at Mat.

 

Look at Perrin.

 

They have no say in what they have to do. They do what the pattern wants.

[Zentari]

Take a break, Zentari. You are not the first or last fanboy.

Your troll-fu is getting weak.

 

A shame that this thread had to break down like this though.

[WhiskyJack]

To make it simpler, look at Verin in tGS.

 

Look at Rand the whole time. He didnt want to do half of the things he has done. But he has been pushed to it by the pattern.

 

Look at Mat.

 

Look at Perrin.

 

They have no say in what they have to do. They do what the pattern wants.

 

 

Actually they do all this because somewhere in their heart, they actually want to do all this. Pattern can make something remotely possible real but it cannot make something happen without it being there in first place.

Do you think pattern pushed Rand to go all crazy and almost destroy the world or it influenced Rand to turn good?

 

P.S: I see the confusion. I didn't mean that Rand went mad by choice. Shit happens and pattern cannot do anything about it. There's choice, there's influence and then there's cause and effect. Bold part reflects action on part of Rand that was beyond the scope of pattern.

[Barid Bel Medar]

well, i cant cure ignorance.

 

Rand has always wanted to go mad, destroy half of the world. Break a whole people and die at Shayol Ghul. Yes.

[WhiskyJack]

well, i cant cure ignorance.

 

Rand has always wanted to go mad, destroy half of the world. Break a whole people and die at Shayol Ghul. Yes.

 

 

What? it's as ridiculous as saying that if I lost a leg in a war, I wanted it or pattern made it happen! Afterall, there are benefits to hopping...

[Barid Bel Medar]

Actually they do all this because somewhere in their heart, they actually want to do all this.

 

 

well, i cant cure ignorance.

 

Rand has always wanted to go mad, destroy half of the world. Break a whole people and die at Shayol Ghul. Yes.

 

 

What? it's as ridiculous as saying that if I lost a leg in a war, I wanted it or pattern made it happen! Afterall, there are benefits to hopping...

 

my point is made....

 

Btw, the last post about rand wanting all that was sarcasm.

 

edit: There really is no point in arguing any longer. Both sides have presented their evidence on it, and its clear there is still disagreement. Lets just agree to disagree. Both sides have made good points.

[WhiskyJack]

Done.

 

I edited my post to make my point a bit more clear.

[OptimusPrime]

Dragon has power because people give him that kind of authority. Without people, he is just a channeler, his strength in OP notwithstanding

 

Eh.. no? The Dragon has power and authority because existence, Creation, its self gave him power and authority. This isn't a democracy. This is French absolutism gone to extreme.

 

 

Yes, I see the creator's shielding hand in downright antagonism from Seanchan to varying level of mistrust from Randlanders or in many cases downright scorn from Nobles. Did they not get the memo? It's the coming end of world that makes people view him positively and not because he wants them to.

What you see is irrelevant.He is the creator's champion,chosen by the pattern.That gives him the power,one way or another.You don't get to dispute that.

 

This. One way or another you will do what the Dragon needs you to do. Sometimes the Pattern might even need you to oppose him in the short run, but in the long run he doesnt need your word or your allegiance, only your existence.

 

 

So you believe Moridin, Demandred, ...basically are doing pattern's bidding? Rand will just ask them to surrender and wham bham, thank you mam..war is over just like that?

 

Well nobody is saying Rand would ask them, so ease of with putting words in my mouth.

 

If you cannot see that Moridin has provided Rand with a way to survive death then that is your problem boyo

[WhiskyJack]

Dragon has power because people give him that kind of authority. Without people, he is just a channeler, his strength in OP notwithstanding

 

Eh.. no? The Dragon has power and authority because existence, Creation, its self gave him power and authority. This isn't a democracy. This is French absolutism gone to extreme.

 

 

Yes, I see the creator's shielding hand in downright antagonism from Seanchan to varying level of mistrust from Randlanders or in many cases downright scorn from Nobles. Did they not get the memo? It's the coming end of world that makes people view him positively and not because he wants them to.

What you see is irrelevant.He is the creator's champion,chosen by the pattern.That gives him the power,one way or another.You don't get to dispute that.

 

This. One way or another you will do what the Dragon needs you to do. Sometimes the Pattern might even need you to oppose him in the short run, but in the long run he doesnt need your word or your allegiance, only your existence.

 

 

So you believe Moridin, Demandred, ...basically are doing pattern's bidding? Rand will just ask them to surrender and wham bham, thank you mam..war is over just like that?

 

Well nobody is saying Rand would ask them, so ease of with putting words in my mouth.

 

If you cannot see that Moridin has provided Rand with a way to survive death then that is your problem boyo

 

Yes, one of the pattern's finest work. Like Pattern causing opening of bore in first place or breaking of world or LTT whacking his own family.All those defining moments..Thanks for clarification, grandpa!

[OptimusPrime]

:laugh:

[ineedfourberfs]

My spin on the whole thing, is that the DO is trapped outside the pattern, therefore those touched by the DO or involved or doing the DO's work are kind of exempt from the pull of the pattern.

 

Quick look at Rand's roadblocks

 

Darkfriends? Check. involved with the DO

Idiot Nobles? generally misguided/misinformed by darkfriends/darkfriend rumours

Peasantry: same as above

Chosen: ...no brainer

 

Now here's an interesting spin...

 

Tuon: doing what she thinks the (DO altered) prophecies tell her to

Egwene: the whole possible compulsion thing/BA advisors

 

Rands Madness: the DO's taint on Saidin...

 

 

 

 

 

.....*shrug*

[randsc]

I agree with the earlier poster, the troll-fu is getting weak.

[cookiecrisp]

I don't know what argument is getting blown where but one thing is indisputable: the idea of free will. People make their own choices. Pattern can influence people to a certain extent, especially those who are already willing. Pattern cannot make people do something they don't want to do.

 

Now have fun debating it for sake of it.

 

Free will is a fairy story. Anyone with anything past a rudimentary education in a developed country will know it's a feel good quack instrument made for the same type of people who'd be crashing planes into buildings.

 

The Pattern does force people to do things. It may not force everyone to stay laying their bodies down for the dragon to step on, but it's stronger than the OP in many regards on influence.

 

Look at the extent it mentally impaired Egwene when she met with Buddah-Rand.

 

It's basically "the plot" written into the book. If "the plot" calls for something, it happens.

 

I'm not going to speculate one whether or not Rand has to bow to Tuon and Egwene, but I'm pretty sure that Rand is would probably be the one to show humility. That's something neither Tuon, who has the most powerful military, and Egwene who has the most political influence out of the Wetlanders can do.

 

One can only hope the big bad Buddah is a bit more mature than these half competent rulers.

[Ananta]

I'm rather sure Elaida's 2nd tower thingy will be for the male folks.