Caemlyn battle

[FarShainMael]

Silly question this, but I'll plead baby brain and press on regardless.

 

Why does everyone assume Olver's a raging psychopath? Ok he's annoyed with Mat for going without him, but it's a long way from annoyance to betrayal and/or murder. His POV read, to me, as perfectly regular child's fantasy rambling, not a huge desire to harm the closest thing he has to family.

 

From the incredibly awkwardly written jacket blurb, we learn that Mat is headed off to meet up with Tuon, presumably after all the shouting t the Fiemd of Merrilor. It seems like Talmanes and Olver are Caemlyn's best hope.

 

Have a look at my OP, in which I said:

 

..he(Mat) has a (foster-) son. Who is out for revenge on the men who killed his father.

 

So: It would not surprise me in the least to see this happening..

 

Olver is persuaded that the man who killed his father was actually Mat - the man he has looked up to and respected for so long.

 

As the battle around the Waygate on the edge of Caemlyn rages, he goes looking for Mat, and seriously, even mortally, wounds him. Mat kills Olver.

 

Also. bear in mind that Olver stole a knife from someone called Bergevin (ToM Epilogue) - who I will be watching VERY carefully in AMoL.

 

And as for the blurb - those are Mat's plans. Will he be in a position to carry them through?

[Maleshub]

OK, I mean that everyone loves him, it just doesn't seem like a character to kill off.

 

But imagine Mat's devastation if he comes back from rescuing Moiraine only to find Olvar gone! To avenge him he would take Fortuona by the scruff of the neck and take command of her armies (channelers included); then go to Rand and take command of his armies (Ashaman included); and then he would cleanse the Blight of every last Trolloc and Fade he could find.

which would be incredibly stupid, which mat is not.

 

it is one thing to force a battle but like the shienarians say that going into the blight to force battle upon trollocs would be a slaughter

if you have several thousands channelers and armies of well over a million...

 

This is all fantasy and wild thought; but what the heck; let's make a discussion of it:

 

What Rand4747 said!

 

The Shienarians can muster 50-100K troops without channelers. Sending those into the Blight would be suicide.

 

But this is different:

- Seanchan: 400K soldiers + 1000 - 2000 damane (battle damane)

- Tear: 100K troops

- Illian: 100K troops

- Andor: 100K troops

- Cairhien: 50K troops

- Perrin's army (Ghealdan, Mayene, Two-Rivers): 70K troops

- Unity of the Border: 200K troops

- Black Tower: 1000 Ashaman

- Aiel: 300K spears + 1000 - 2000 Wise Ones

- Sea Folk: several hundred windfinders

 

In this "fantasy" setting, Mat would have nearly 1.5 million soldiers and 3000 - 5000 channelers (all of them battle channelers). And I've left the WT out of it.

 

Putting that force in a campaign to cleanse the Blight would be an epic bloodbath; but Mat would achieve his objectives.

that is assuming all those people would fight to cleanse the blight and the shadow had no channellers

 

Of course it is an assumption and requires Rand's and Fortuona's approval. As to the Shadow's channelers, we know that there are less than 100 Black Ajah left. And there might be a couple of hundred Black Ashaman in the BT. That would put the Shadow at a clear disadvantage in that category.

 

And I recall an interview in which RJ stated that this time around the Shadow suffers from the lack of channelers.

[Duskfire]

OK, I mean that everyone loves him, it just doesn't seem like a character to kill off.

 

But imagine Mat's devastation if he comes back from rescuing Moiraine only to find Olvar gone! To avenge him he would take Fortuona by the scruff of the neck and take command of her armies (channelers included); then go to Rand and take command of his armies (Ashaman included); and then he would cleanse the Blight of every last Trolloc and Fade he could find.

which would be incredibly stupid, which mat is not.

 

it is one thing to force a battle but like the shienarians say that going into the blight to force battle upon trollocs would be a slaughter

 

I actually think thats exactly what Mat is going to do. It has been said many times that his army wil follow him into Shaol Ghul if needed. Mat will provide the distraction allowing Rand to enter shayol Ghul unmolested (or as unmolested as you can be anyway.)

[Maleshub]

OK, I mean that everyone loves him, it just doesn't seem like a character to kill off.

 

But imagine Mat's devastation if he comes back from rescuing Moiraine only to find Olvar gone! To avenge him he would take Fortuona by the scruff of the neck and take command of her armies (channelers included); then go to Rand and take command of his armies (Ashaman included); and then he would cleanse the Blight of every last Trolloc and Fade he could find.

which would be incredibly stupid, which mat is not.

 

it is one thing to force a battle but like the shienarians say that going into the blight to force battle upon trollocs would be a slaughter

 

I actually think thats exactly what Mat is going to do. It has been said many times that his army wil follow him into Shaol Ghul if needed. Mat will provide the distraction allowing Rand to enter shayol Ghul unmolested (or as unmolested as you can be anyway.)

 

If Rand has a certain dagger on him, he will probably enter the Pit of Doom unseen by the DO or Shadowspawn. It would be awesome if Mat takes out Fain to allow Rand to enter the Pit of Doom without that nuisance.

[Luckers]

OK, I mean that everyone loves him, it just doesn't seem like a character to kill off.

 

But imagine Mat's devastation if he comes back from rescuing Moiraine only to find Olvar gone! To avenge him he would take Fortuona by the scruff of the neck and take command of her armies (channelers included); then go to Rand and take command of his armies (Ashaman included); and then he would cleanse the Blight of every last Trolloc and Fade he could find.

which would be incredibly stupid, which mat is not.

 

it is one thing to force a battle but like the shienarians say that going into the blight to force battle upon trollocs would be a slaughter

 

I actually think thats exactly what Mat is going to do. It has been said many times that his army wil follow him into Shaol Ghul if needed. Mat will provide the distraction allowing Rand to enter shayol Ghul unmolested (or as unmolested as you can be anyway.)

 

If Rand has a certain dagger on him, he will probably enter the Pit of Doom unseen by the DO or Shadowspawn. It would be awesome if Mat takes out Fain to allow Rand to enter the Pit of Doom without that nuisance.

 

Fain better do something solid beforehand though. Maybe kill Shadar Haren.

 

Also I wonder if the leaf dagger would work against the Forsaken--after all they are as steeped in the Dark One's evil as its possible for a human to be short of becoming a Grey Man. Possibly this will save Elayne's life during the attack on Caemlyn... hmmm....

[Maleshub]

OK, I mean that everyone loves him, it just doesn't seem like a character to kill off.

 

But imagine Mat's devastation if he comes back from rescuing Moiraine only to find Olvar gone! To avenge him he would take Fortuona by the scruff of the neck and take command of her armies (channelers included); then go to Rand and take command of his armies (Ashaman included); and then he would cleanse the Blight of every last Trolloc and Fade he could find.

which would be incredibly stupid, which mat is not.

 

it is one thing to force a battle but like the shienarians say that going into the blight to force battle upon trollocs would be a slaughter

 

I actually think thats exactly what Mat is going to do. It has been said many times that his army wil follow him into Shaol Ghul if needed. Mat will provide the distraction allowing Rand to enter shayol Ghul unmolested (or as unmolested as you can be anyway.)

 

If Rand has a certain dagger on him, he will probably enter the Pit of Doom unseen by the DO or Shadowspawn. It would be awesome if Mat takes out Fain to allow Rand to enter the Pit of Doom without that nuisance.

 

Fain better do something solid beforehand though. Maybe kill Shadar Haren.

 

Also I wonder if the leaf dagger would work against the Forsaken--after all they are as steeped in the Dark One's evil as its possible for a human to be short of becoming a Grey Man. Possibly this will save Elayne's life during the attack on Caemlyn... hmmm....

 

Fain taking out Shadar Haran would be epic; but will Brandon and Team Jordan give that sufficient screen time! Much of the Shadow's "intelligence" and "genius" happens off-screen (except their WT-demolition plan).

 

The dagger's effect and the Foresaken is an interesting issue. Regardless of its impact, one of the Foresaken will sense Rand with or without the dagger; if he's still alive.

[Luckers]

Speaking of, I wonder if a channeler could ward themselves against Rand's 'inner light'.

[Duskfire]

There is very little chance that Rand will simply slip into the Pit of Doom unseen. I would bet any money that the dagger wouldnt work on the DO or SH either. I see getting to Shayol Ghul a close to impossible situation, which is why three ta`veren are needed. If theres anything Mat is good at, its playing against the odds and getting them to his favour.

[Luckers]

There is very little chance that Rand will simply slip into the Pit of Doom unseen. I would bet any money that the dagger wouldnt work on the DO or SH either. I see getting to Shayol Ghul a close to impossible situation, which is why three ta`veren are needed. If theres anything Mat is good at, its playing against the odds and getting them to his favour.

 

Aviendha seemed to think it possible.

[Maleshub]

There is very little chance that Rand will simply slip into the Pit of Doom unseen. I would bet any money that the dagger wouldnt work on the DO or SH either. I see getting to Shayol Ghul a close to impossible situation, which is why three ta`veren are needed. If theres anything Mat is good at, its playing against the odds and getting them to his favour.

There is very little chance that Rand will simply slip into the Pit of Doom unseen. I would bet any money that the dagger wouldnt work on the DO or SH either. I see getting to Shayol Ghul a close to impossible situation, which is why three ta`veren are needed. If theres anything Mat is good at, its playing against the odds and getting them to his favour.

 

Aviendha seemed to think it possible.

 

What Luckers said!

 

If Aviendha says the dagger will hide its bearer from the eyes of shadowspawn, even sightblighter himself, why not? And the AMoL cover gives us a hint that Rand will most likely have the dagger on him as he enters the Pit of Doom.

[Duskfire]

There is very little chance that Rand will simply slip into the Pit of Doom unseen. I would bet any money that the dagger wouldnt work on the DO or SH either. I see getting to Shayol Ghul a close to impossible situation, which is why three ta`veren are needed. If theres anything Mat is good at, its playing against the odds and getting them to his favour.

There is very little chance that Rand will simply slip into the Pit of Doom unseen. I would bet any money that the dagger wouldnt work on the DO or SH either. I see getting to Shayol Ghul a close to impossible situation, which is why three ta`veren are needed. If theres anything Mat is good at, its playing against the odds and getting them to his favour.

 

Aviendha seemed to think it possible.

 

What Luckers said!

 

If Aviendha says the dagger will hide its bearer from the eyes of shadowspawn, even sightblighter himself, why not? And the AMoL cover gives us a hint that Rand will most likely have the dagger on him as he enters the Pit of Doom.

 

because a) The Dark One is essentially a God, and I would be extremely surprised if a man made weapon is able to be used in such a way against it. Really, it would be the biggest cop out if Rand is able to slip into the cave without any knowledge from the most powerful being after the Creator.

 

and b) how often are characters in Wheel of Time wrong? Just because Aviendha says so does not mean its the case.

[TootThatHorn]

There is very little chance that Rand will simply slip into the Pit of Doom unseen. I would bet any money that the dagger wouldnt work on the DO or SH either. I see getting to Shayol Ghul a close to impossible situation, which is why three ta`veren are needed. If theres anything Mat is good at, its playing against the odds and getting them to his favour.

There is very little chance that Rand will simply slip into the Pit of Doom unseen. I would bet any money that the dagger wouldnt work on the DO or SH either. I see getting to Shayol Ghul a close to impossible situation, which is why three ta`veren are needed. If theres anything Mat is good at, its playing against the odds and getting them to his favour.

 

Aviendha seemed to think it possible.

 

What Luckers said!

 

If Aviendha says the dagger will hide its bearer from the eyes of shadowspawn, even sightblighter himself, why not? And the AMoL cover gives us a hint that Rand will most likely have the dagger on him as he enters the Pit of Doom.

 

because a) The Dark One is essentially a God, and I would be extremely surprised if a man made weapon is able to be used in such a way against it. Really, it would be the biggest cop out if Rand is able to slip into the cave without any knowledge from the most powerful being after the Creator.

 

and b) how often are characters in Wheel of Time wrong? Just because Aviendha says so does not mean its the case.

 

Avi actually has a talent for such things as identifying a terangreals use, so im ok with trusting it....but ive said it before and ill say it again, im not buying that he has that dagger on him till i read it, the one on the cover is as far from the description as possible, and if he is going in there with the girls wearing a dagger that hides him from shadowspawn and whatnot then he is painting one hell of a huge bullseye on their back, since thats all they will see

[Maleshub]

There is very little chance that Rand will simply slip into the Pit of Doom unseen. I would bet any money that the dagger wouldnt work on the DO or SH either. I see getting to Shayol Ghul a close to impossible situation, which is why three ta`veren are needed. If theres anything Mat is good at, its playing against the odds and getting them to his favour.

There is very little chance that Rand will simply slip into the Pit of Doom unseen. I would bet any money that the dagger wouldnt work on the DO or SH either. I see getting to Shayol Ghul a close to impossible situation, which is why three ta`veren are needed. If theres anything Mat is good at, its playing against the odds and getting them to his favour.

 

Aviendha seemed to think it possible.

 

What Luckers said!

 

If Aviendha says the dagger will hide its bearer from the eyes of shadowspawn, even sightblighter himself, why not? And the AMoL cover gives us a hint that Rand will most likely have the dagger on him as he enters the Pit of Doom.

 

because a) The Dark One is essentially a God, and I would be extremely surprised if a man made weapon is able to be used in such a way against it. Really, it would be the biggest cop out if Rand is able to slip into the cave without any knowledge from the most powerful being after the Creator.

 

and b) how often are characters in Wheel of Time wrong? Just because Aviendha says so does not mean its the case.

 

The DO is an extremely powerful entity; but he's definitely a much smaller force than the Creator. Still, he's powerful enough for this discussion.

 

The thing to consider is that the DO is affecting the world at a very reduced strength. He is touching the world through a partially sealed "Bore." And even the Foresaken are amazed by the DO's mix of knowledge and ignorance of world affairs.

 

As to Aviendha being wrong, the identification of the dagger is a Talent, as mentioned in TTH's post. She's read other items of power right; why not this one as well?

 

Finally, refusing to consider that a human-made weapon will affect the DO goes against the theme and prophecies. We are lead to believe that Callandor, a flawed human-made item, is central to defeating the DO in the Last Battle. Why not another item affecting the DO's senses?

[Luckers]

because a) The Dark One is essentially a God, and I would be extremely surprised if a man made weapon is able to be used in such a way against it. Really, it would be the biggest cop out if Rand is able to slip into the cave without any knowledge from the most powerful being after the Creator.

 

I don't think so. That's actually one of the themes that has been played into the Wheel--nothing is absolute.

 

That being said, one of the ways I could see it playing out is if the dagger does shield Rand from the Dark One--right until the moment that Rand is in the bore itself, whereupon he is too close and the Dark One sees through the warding. Thereby the 'perhaps' level of Aviendha's comment works, and Rand is shielded during the walk through the cavern of stone teeth.

 

The DO is an extremely powerful entity; but he's definitely a much smaller force than the Creator.

 

You know, we don't actually know that. Consider for instance that despite the talk of the 'Creator imprisoning the Dark One', which would suggest containment and therefore greater strength, by inference at least, the actual descriptions all sound more like the Creator built a wall and locked the Dark One out of existence. That suggests aversion which could even be indicative of the Creator being afraid to face the Dark One. :P

 

Personally I believe they are equal and opposite, more akin to Spenta Mainyu and Angra Mainyu than the Christian God and Satan, and it may well be the Creator is actually stronger, but we don't know.

 

Indeed, apart from the catechism (most of which is patently false in any case), this is all we have...

 

1. Moiraine states that its impossible for the Creator to intervene, again suggesting some weird things about the Creator's power.

 

2. The VOICE says that he will not interefere, yet the fact that it spoke suggests it wanted to help, and therefore the fact that it didnt, like Moiraine's statement about the Creator, suggests that it couldn't.

 

3. Moridin's thoughts on the Creator which flow through to Rand in KoD suggest a completely uncaring being, but that fits with his rampant nihilism...

 

So yeah... we don't know.

[Suttree]

The DO is an extremely powerful entity; but he's definitely a much smaller force than the Creator. Still, he's powerful enough for this discussion.

 

Interview: Jun 26th, 1996

 

Compuserve Chat (Verbatim)

Martin Reznick

 

How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?

Robert Jordan

 

I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator...carrying on the theme, the ying yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books. It's somewhat Manichean i know, but I think it works.

[FarShainMael]

The Creator creates. It's what He does. He can create a prison if He wishes. He can also create a champion to guard His creation.

 

Presumably the Dark One destroys (rather than distorts) if It is the balance to the Creator. So It should be able to destroy anything the Creator makes - including the prison and the Champion.

 

I had some further weird thoughts about this apparent deadlock, and about how it could perhaps be broken, on another thread:

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/69363-the-creator-the-dark-one-and-the-dragon/

[Vardar]

I've still yet to see an explaination of how this vast army gets into the city. It took weeks/months to get a large army in the two rivers right? They can only get in small groups. The waygate is in a bloody basement, how many trollocs can you hide down there? Based on all the books, an army large enough to take over the city would be eaten alive in the Ways.

[Vardar]

And where is everyone getting this dagger info from? IS that what's assumed is the dagger by Justice on his belt?

[Maleshub]

I've still yet to see an explaination of how this vast army gets into the city. It took weeks/months to get a large army in the two rivers right? They can only get in small groups. The waygate is in a bloody basement, how many trollocs can you hide down there? Based on all the books, an army large enough to take over the city would be eaten alive in the Ways.

 

The how remains unexplained. We know from Verin's letter to Mat that the Shadow has figured out a way to remove the wards guarding the gateway and also to move a large army through the Ways.

 

We also have a precedence with the Shadowspawn army that attacked Rand in the Tear manor house. I don't remember if they moved by Waygate or Portal Stone; but it still made it all the way to the southern end of the Spine of the World without detection.

 

And where is everyone getting this dagger info from? IS that what's assumed is the dagger by Justice on his belt?

 

On the AMoL cover, Rand has a sword and a dagger on his left hip.

[Vardar]

I've still yet to see an explaination of how this vast army gets into the city. It took weeks/months to get a large army in the two rivers right? They can only get in small groups. The waygate is in a bloody basement, how many trollocs can you hide down there? Based on all the books, an army large enough to take over the city would be eaten alive in the Ways.

 

The how remains unexplained. We know from Verin's letter to Mat that the Shadow has figured out a way to remove the wards guarding the gateway and also to move a large army through the Ways.

 

We also have a precedence with the Shadowspawn army that attacked Rand in the Tear manor house. I don't remember if they moved by Waygate or Portal Stone; but it still made it all the way to the southern end of the Spine of the World without detection.

 

And where is everyone getting this dagger info from? IS that what's assumed is the dagger by Justice on his belt?

 

On the AMoL cover, Rand has a sword and a dagger on his left hip.

 

Yea but in the manor house, which I already covered, they had time and access to possibly multiple portal stones/waygates. Also that part of the country was large uninhabited correct, so they could hide an army there with ease.

[Demon_AS]

I really, really don't think Olver is going to betray Mat.

 

I mean, come on guys. Mat rescued Olver, gave him a place in the Band, teaches him all sorts of important skills that he'll need to hunt down his Shaido nemesis etc etc. Olver loves Mat, and vice versa (need I remind you all that Mat rushed back into the Seanchan invasion of Ebou Dar to rescue him?). We had a POV from Olver at the end of TOM and nothing there suggested an Aram-style betrayal. Aram was a zealot in much the same way that Masema was - that made him easy to manipulate. There might be an argument that he was also under Compulsion, but it's very unlikely.

 

Ditto Byar... that guy smelled wrong to Perrin, suggesting that whatever infected him wasn't Compulsion. Just an extremist whose emotions were all over the place.

 

I think the Band will save Caemlyn and maybe gain some more concessions to control the Dragons as a result.

[FarShainMael]

I really, really don't think Olver is going to betray Mat.

 

I mean, come on guys. Mat rescued Olver, gave him a place in the Band, teaches him all sorts of important skills that he'll need to hunt down his Shaido nemesis etc etc. Olver loves Mat, and vice versa (need I remind you all that Mat rushed back into the Seanchan invasion of Ebou Dar to rescue him?). We had a POV from Olver at the end of TOM and nothing there suggested an Aram-style betrayal. Aram was a zealot in much the same way that Masema was - that made him easy to manipulate. There might be an argument that he was also under Compulsion, but it's very unlikely.

 

Ditto Byar... that guy smelled wrong to Perrin, suggesting that whatever infected him wasn't Compulsion. Just an extremist whose emotions were all over the place.

 

Recall that in my OP I said that perhaps Olver might be persuaded that Mat was responsible for his father's death. To expand that, it would probably by a DF and possibly with a touch of Compulsion thrown in. In view of the very valid points you raised about Olver's allegiance to the Band, consider what effect this persuasion would have on him. He would feel SERIOUSLY let down, and yes, betrayed. He's already bent on revenge for his father; he would target that desire, fuelled with his sense of outrage at this apparent betrayal, on Mat himself.

 

Just what the Shadow wants..

 

I think the Band will save Caemlyn and maybe gain some more concessions to control the Dragons as a result.

 

I do agree with this, 100%!

[Demon_AS]

I really, really don't think Olver is going to betray Mat.

 

I mean, come on guys. Mat rescued Olver, gave him a place in the Band, teaches him all sorts of important skills that he'll need to hunt down his Shaido nemesis etc etc. Olver loves Mat, and vice versa (need I remind you all that Mat rushed back into the Seanchan invasion of Ebou Dar to rescue him?). We had a POV from Olver at the end of TOM and nothing there suggested an Aram-style betrayal. Aram was a zealot in much the same way that Masema was - that made him easy to manipulate. There might be an argument that he was also under Compulsion, but it's very unlikely.

 

Ditto Byar... that guy smelled wrong to Perrin, suggesting that whatever infected him wasn't Compulsion. Just an extremist whose emotions were all over the place.

 

Recall that in my OP I said that perhaps Olver might be persuaded that Mat was responsible for his father's death. To expand that, it would probably by a DF and possibly with a touch of Compulsion thrown in. In view of the very valid points you raised about Olver's allegiance to the Band, consider what effect this persuasion would have on him. He would feel SERIOUSLY let down, and yes, betrayed. He's already bent on revenge for his father; he would target that desire, fuelled with his sense of outrage at this apparent betrayal, on Mat himself.

 

Just what the Shadow wants..

Hmmm, well, while I agree that such a move on the Shadow's part would be incredibly evil, and thus befitting their nature, I'm just not sure that anybody short of Graendal would even conceive of something so complex. Secondly, I'm am unsure as to the extent that the Shadow are aware of Olver's importance to Mat. I dunno, maybe I'm wrong, but I really don't think it's likely :).

[FarShainMael]

The Shadow in general, and Demandred in particular, may know a lot more about the Band than we think. Mat is aready a target; someone (possibly Sammael) sent a gholam after both him and Elayne:

 

"He (?) wants you dead as much as he wants her."

 

Later on Talmanes and the Band enter the employ of King Roedran of Murandy (TPoD18). There is a lot of speculation that Roedran may in fact be Demandred; if that is true (and I realise I'm speculating on the basis of a speculation!) then anything's possible.

 

I have no idea whether Dem is capable of Compulsion. But he may use trickery instead. Or he may reach Olver through Bergevin, the man whose knife Olver took (ToM Epilogue).

[Vardar]

The Shadow in general, and Demandred in particular, may know a lot more about the Band than we think. Mat is aready a target; someone (possibly Sammael) sent a gholam after both him and Elayne:

 

"He (?) wants you dead as much as he wants her."

 

Later on Talmanes and the Band enter the employ of King Roedran of Murandy (TPoD18). There is a lot of speculation that Roedran may in fact be Demandred; if that is true (and I realise I'm speculating on the basis of a speculation!) then anything's possible.

 

I have no idea whether Dem is capable of Compulsion. But he may use trickery instead. Or he may reach Olver through Bergevin, the man whose knife Olver took (ToM Epilogue).

 

Compulsion isn't a talent, therefore any channeler who learned it and has the strength can do it. So yea, Dem can.