How was it that Rand had so much power in VoG?

[MasterAblar]

According to RJ, men have several levels on top of women (strength in power). Lanfear simply could not have matched Aginor in raw strength. Ofcourse it doesn't mean she couldn't have beaten him in fight.

 

So how strong do you think Lanfear is compared to the male forsaken. Equal to about who for example? I know stength doesn't mean everything of course, but the fact that

 

Hard to say..Probably strong enough to be stronger than weakest male forsaken (Asmo, Be'la or Balthamel..).

 

Rand could have beaten her despite the fact that he was still a ways away from his full potential seems to indicate that in certain instances, it's rather important.

 

Not Rand, LTT. The difference is profound..and Rand being way way weaker and probably not matching the angreal Lanfear was carrying meant that he was channeling less power than her.

 

And yet how could LTT be more dexterious than Lanfear or more skilled or have more knowledge? They shared the last two and the former is at Lanfear's advantage. LTT having control wouldn't have given Rand more strength, just knowlegdge, skill, experience, etc... All things that Lanfear has in equal amounts. So Rand must have been stronger than Lanfear then. I don't think Lanfear had the angreal until the end of the fight when she got up on the wagon.

 

And if Rand is stronger than her then, and he was only as strong as Asmodean at the end of tSR, just one book before he fought Lanfear, then I have a hard time seeing her as stronger than Asmodean. About equal I'd say. Which isn't to say she could wipe the floor with Asmodean of course. It's only a measurement of her brute strength, nothing more.

 

 

I don't understand. Share what? Why is Nynaeve better at healing. Why isn't Rand? I am not sure what you are saying but I don't think it's something you can learn. Some people are just better at something. Rand is LTT! He posses the same skill as LTT and no, Lanfear doesn't have the same skill. Doesn't matter how much one practices, there is only this much improvement you will ever make. And she had angreal...I could look for the exact line in the book..not now though...Probably she knew Rand had a angreal and didn't want to challenge directly..And even if they were equally matched, winner had to be more skillful! Look how that 14 year Sea Folk girl Talan owned Nynaeve even though she probably was weaker than Nyn in strength (she had potential to surpass Nyn)..

 

They share the same knowledge of weaves, the same experience. Some people are just intuitively good at fighting, but Lanfear never seemed to be bad at it. Which is why I'd expect a full strength LTT to defeat her. But a LTT barely stronger than Asmodean? Even with all his knowledge, and skill, that's a big difference.

 

I believe RJ said that Balthamel wouldn't have stood a chance against Aginor in a fight. And yet Aginor is no great fighter. So it was purely strength that made the difference.

[WhiskyJack]

All Forsaken were once dreadlords. Forsaken was a late concept applied to few dreadlords who rose in rank and became commanders instead of grunt. May be there were few weak forsaken that got killed in "process"..

[WhiskyJack]

According to RJ, men have several levels on top of women (strength in power). Lanfear simply could not have matched Aginor in raw strength. Ofcourse it doesn't mean she couldn't have beaten him in fight.

 

So how strong do you think Lanfear is compared to the male forsaken. Equal to about who for example? I know stength doesn't mean everything of course, but the fact that

 

Hard to say..Probably strong enough to be stronger than weakest male forsaken (Asmo, Be'la or Balthamel..).

 

Rand could have beaten her despite the fact that he was still a ways away from his full potential seems to indicate that in certain instances, it's rather important.

 

Not Rand, LTT. The difference is profound..and Rand being way way weaker and probably not matching the angreal Lanfear was carrying meant that he was channeling less power than her.

 

And yet how could LTT be more dexterious than Lanfear or more skilled or have more knowledge? They shared the last two and the former is at Lanfear's advantage. LTT having control wouldn't have given Rand more strength, just knowlegdge, skill, experience, etc... All things that Lanfear has in equal amounts. So Rand must have been stronger than Lanfear then. I don't think Lanfear had the angreal until the end of the fight when she got up on the wagon.

 

And if Rand is stronger than her then, and he was only as strong as Asmodean at the end of tSR, just one book before he fought Lanfear, then I have a hard time seeing her as stronger than Asmodean. About equal I'd say. Which isn't to say she could wipe the floor with Asmodean of course. It's only a measurement of her brute strength, nothing more.

 

 

I don't understand. Share what? Why is Nynaeve better at healing. Why isn't Rand? I am not sure what you are saying but I don't think it's something you can learn. Some people are just better at something. Rand is LTT! He posses the same skill as LTT and no, Lanfear doesn't have the same skill. Doesn't matter how much one practices, there is only this much improvement you will ever make. And she had angreal...I could look for the exact line in the book..not now though...Probably she knew Rand had a angreal and didn't want to challenge directly..And even if they were equally matched, winner had to be more skillful! Look how that 14 year Sea Folk girl Talan owned Nynaeve even though she probably was weaker than Nyn in strength (she had potential to surpass Nyn)..

 

They share the same knowledge of weaves, the same experience. Some people are just intuitively good at fighting, but Lanfear never seemed to be bad at it. Why is why I'd expect a full strength LTT to defeat her. But a LTT barely stronger than Asmodean? Even with all his knowledge, and skill, that's a big difference.

 

I believe RJ said that Balthamel wouldn't have stood a chance against Aginor in a fight. And yet Aginor is no great fighter. So it was purely strength that made the difference.

 

All forsaken share same knowledge and experience as Rand. They all grew up in AoL and read and experienced stuff. We simply don't enough about Forsaken. ll their strength and positions are idle speculations. And that's why people should not take their posturing very seriously.

 

 

Aginor was a coward but if pressed in corner, he would have most people a challenge. We don't know for fact that Aginor had habit of losing in fight. He did boast that he matched LTT stroke for stroke. If that's true, than surely he couldn have owned Balthamel. Aginor was a glorified nerd who lacked that killer instinct.

[MasterAblar]

All Forsaken were once dreadlords. Forsaken was a late concept applied to few dreadlords who rose in rank and became commanders inside of grunt. May be there were few weak forsaken that got killed in "process"..

 

Sorry? I believe that all shadow channelers were once called forsaken, not just the top 13, or even those who were given permission to use the True Power, everyone. The dreadlords were the shadow's channelers during the Trolloc Wars. They didn't dare take the name of forsaken.

[MasterAblar]

According to RJ, men have several levels on top of women (strength in power). Lanfear simply could not have matched Aginor in raw strength. Ofcourse it doesn't mean she couldn't have beaten him in fight.

 

So how strong do you think Lanfear is compared to the male forsaken. Equal to about who for example? I know stength doesn't mean everything of course, but the fact that

 

Hard to say..Probably strong enough to be stronger than weakest male forsaken (Asmo, Be'la or Balthamel..).

 

Rand could have beaten her despite the fact that he was still a ways away from his full potential seems to indicate that in certain instances, it's rather important.

 

Not Rand, LTT. The difference is profound..and Rand being way way weaker and probably not matching the angreal Lanfear was carrying meant that he was channeling less power than her.

 

And yet how could LTT be more dexterious than Lanfear or more skilled or have more knowledge? They shared the last two and the former is at Lanfear's advantage. LTT having control wouldn't have given Rand more strength, just knowlegdge, skill, experience, etc... All things that Lanfear has in equal amounts. So Rand must have been stronger than Lanfear then. I don't think Lanfear had the angreal until the end of the fight when she got up on the wagon.

 

And if Rand is stronger than her then, and he was only as strong as Asmodean at the end of tSR, just one book before he fought Lanfear, then I have a hard time seeing her as stronger than Asmodean. About equal I'd say. Which isn't to say she could wipe the floor with Asmodean of course. It's only a measurement of her brute strength, nothing more.

 

 

I don't understand. Share what? Why is Nynaeve better at healing. Why isn't Rand? I am not sure what you are saying but I don't think it's something you can learn. Some people are just better at something. Rand is LTT! He posses the same skill as LTT and no, Lanfear doesn't have the same skill. Doesn't matter how much one practices, there is only this much improvement you will ever make. And she had angreal...I could look for the exact line in the book..not now though...Probably she knew Rand had a angreal and didn't want to challenge directly..And even if they were equally matched, winner had to be more skillful! Look how that 14 year Sea Folk girl Talan owned Nynaeve even though she probably was weaker than Nyn in strength (she had potential to surpass Nyn)..

 

They share the same knowledge of weaves, the same experience. Some people are just intuitively good at fighting, but Lanfear never seemed to be bad at it. Why is why I'd expect a full strength LTT to defeat her. But a LTT barely stronger than Asmodean? Even with all his knowledge, and skill, that's a big difference.

 

I believe RJ said that Balthamel wouldn't have stood a chance against Aginor in a fight. And yet Aginor is no great fighter. So it was purely strength that made the difference.

 

 

Aginor was a coward but if pressed in corner, he would have most people a challenge. We don't know for fact that Aginor had habit of losing in fight. He did boast that he matched LTT stroke for stroke. If that's true, than surely he couldn't have owned Balthamel. Aginor was a glorified nerd who lacked that killer instinct.

 

He couldn't have?

 

Well in any case, I didn't say it, RJ did.

[WhiskyJack]

All Forsaken were once dreadlords. Forsaken was a late concept applied to few dreadlords who rose in rank and became commanders inside of grunt. May be there were few weak forsaken that got killed in "process"..

 

Sorry? I believe that all shadow channelers were once called forsaken, not just the top 13, or even those who were given permission to use the True Power, everyone. The dreadlords were the shadow's channelers during the Trolloc Wars. They didn't dare take the name of forsaken.

 

 

Ask someone more knowledgeable. I remember reading the book Raven and both Forsaken and dreadlords are mentioned when LTT struck SG.

[MasterAblar]

According to RJ, men have several levels on top of women (strength in power). Lanfear simply could not have matched Aginor in raw strength. Ofcourse it doesn't mean she couldn't have beaten him in fight.

 

So how strong do you think Lanfear is compared to the male forsaken. Equal to about who for example? I know stength doesn't mean everything of course, but the fact that

 

Hard to say..Probably strong enough to be stronger than weakest male forsaken (Asmo, Be'la or Balthamel..).

 

Rand could have beaten her despite the fact that he was still a ways away from his full potential seems to indicate that in certain instances, it's rather important.

 

Not Rand, LTT. The difference is profound..and Rand being way way weaker and probably not matching the angreal Lanfear was carrying meant that he was channeling less power than her.

 

And yet how could LTT be more dexterious than Lanfear or more skilled or have more knowledge? They shared the last two and the former is at Lanfear's advantage. LTT having control wouldn't have given Rand more strength, just knowlegdge, skill, experience, etc... All things that Lanfear has in equal amounts. So Rand must have been stronger than Lanfear then. I don't think Lanfear had the angreal until the end of the fight when she got up on the wagon.

 

And if Rand is stronger than her then, and he was only as strong as Asmodean at the end of tSR, just one book before he fought Lanfear, then I have a hard time seeing her as stronger than Asmodean. About equal I'd say. Which isn't to say she could wipe the floor with Asmodean of course. It's only a measurement of her brute strength, nothing more.

 

 

I don't understand. Share what? Why is Nynaeve better at healing. Why isn't Rand? I am not sure what you are saying but I don't think it's something you can learn. Some people are just better at something. Rand is LTT! He posses the same skill as LTT and no, Lanfear doesn't have the same skill. Doesn't matter how much one practices, there is only this much improvement you will ever make. And she had angreal...I could look for the exact line in the book..not now though...Probably she knew Rand had a angreal and didn't want to challenge directly..And even if they were equally matched, winner had to be more skillful! Look how that 14 year Sea Folk girl Talan owned Nynaeve even though she probably was weaker than Nyn in strength (she had potential to surpass Nyn)..

 

They share the same knowledge of weaves, the same experience. Some people are just intuitively good at fighting, but Lanfear never seemed to be bad at it. Why is why I'd expect a full strength LTT to defeat her. But a LTT barely stronger than Asmodean? Even with all his knowledge, and skill, that's a big difference.

 

I believe RJ said that Balthamel wouldn't have stood a chance against Aginor in a fight. And yet Aginor is no great fighter. So it was purely strength that made the difference.

 

All forsaken share same knowledge and experience as Rand. They all grew up in AoL and read and experienced stuff. We simply don't enough about Forsaken. ll their strength and positions are idle speculations. And that's why people should not take their posturing very seriously.

 

 

Aginor was a coward but if pressed in corner, he would have most people a challenge. We don't know for fact that Aginor had habit of losing in fight. He did boast that he matched LTT stroke for stroke. If that's true, than surely he couldn't have owned Balthamel. Aginor was a glorified nerd who lacked that killer instinct.

 

Exactly, the forsaken have the same knowledge and experience as LTT, so Lanfear would not have been disadventaged there.

[WhiskyJack]

[

He couldn't have?

 

Well in any case, I didn't say it, RJ did.

 

 

Fixed

[WhiskyJack]

According to RJ, men have several levels on top of women (strength in power). Lanfear simply could not have matched Aginor in raw strength. Ofcourse it doesn't mean she couldn't have beaten him in fight.

 

So how strong do you think Lanfear is compared to the male forsaken. Equal to about who for example? I know stength doesn't mean everything of course, but the fact that

 

Hard to say..Probably strong enough to be stronger than weakest male forsaken (Asmo, Be'la or Balthamel..).

 

Rand could have beaten her despite the fact that he was still a ways away from his full potential seems to indicate that in certain instances, it's rather important.

 

Not Rand, LTT. The difference is profound..and Rand being way way weaker and probably not matching the angreal Lanfear was carrying meant that he was channeling less power than her.

 

And yet how could LTT be more dexterious than Lanfear or more skilled or have more knowledge? They shared the last two and the former is at Lanfear's advantage. LTT having control wouldn't have given Rand more strength, just knowlegdge, skill, experience, etc... All things that Lanfear has in equal amounts. So Rand must have been stronger than Lanfear then. I don't think Lanfear had the angreal until the end of the fight when she got up on the wagon.

 

And if Rand is stronger than her then, and he was only as strong as Asmodean at the end of tSR, just one book before he fought Lanfear, then I have a hard time seeing her as stronger than Asmodean. About equal I'd say. Which isn't to say she could wipe the floor with Asmodean of course. It's only a measurement of her brute strength, nothing more.

 

 

I don't understand. Share what? Why is Nynaeve better at healing. Why isn't Rand? I am not sure what you are saying but I don't think it's something you can learn. Some people are just better at something. Rand is LTT! He posses the same skill as LTT and no, Lanfear doesn't have the same skill. Doesn't matter how much one practices, there is only this much improvement you will ever make. And she had angreal...I could look for the exact line in the book..not now though...Probably she knew Rand had a angreal and didn't want to challenge directly..And even if they were equally matched, winner had to be more skillful! Look how that 14 year Sea Folk girl Talan owned Nynaeve even though she probably was weaker than Nyn in strength (she had potential to surpass Nyn)..

 

They share the same knowledge of weaves, the same experience. Some people are just intuitively good at fighting, but Lanfear never seemed to be bad at it. Why is why I'd expect a full strength LTT to defeat her. But a LTT barely stronger than Asmodean? Even with all his knowledge, and skill, that's a big difference.

 

I believe RJ said that Balthamel wouldn't have stood a chance against Aginor in a fight. And yet Aginor is no great fighter. So it was purely strength that made the difference.

 

All forsaken share same knowledge and experience as Rand. They all grew up in AoL and read and experienced stuff. We simply don't enough about Forsaken. ll their strength and positions are idle speculations. And that's why people should not take their posturing very seriously.

 

 

Aginor was a coward but if pressed in corner, he would have most people a challenge. We don't know for fact that Aginor had habit of losing in fight. He did boast that he matched LTT stroke for stroke. If that's true, than surely he couldn't have owned Balthamel. Aginor was a glorified nerd who lacked that killer instinct.

 

Exactly, the forsaken have the same knowledge and experience as LTT, so Lanfear would not have been disadventaged there.

 

 

But LTT beat Sammael, Ishy and what not...How? Ishy matched him in strength. Just because you know certain weave (you have seen it or read about it) doesn't mean you be good at it. LTT obviously learned more "weaves" than them/could manipulate five powers with more skill...others were left behind in these two areas I guess.

[MasterAblar]

According to RJ, men have several levels on top of women (strength in power). Lanfear simply could not have matched Aginor in raw strength. Ofcourse it doesn't mean she couldn't have beaten him in fight.

 

So how strong do you think Lanfear is compared to the male forsaken. Equal to about who for example? I know stength doesn't mean everything of course, but the fact that

 

Hard to say..Probably strong enough to be stronger than weakest male forsaken (Asmo, Be'la or Balthamel..).

 

Rand could have beaten her despite the fact that he was still a ways away from his full potential seems to indicate that in certain instances, it's rather important.

 

Not Rand, LTT. The difference is profound..and Rand being way way weaker and probably not matching the angreal Lanfear was carrying meant that he was channeling less power than her.

 

And yet how could LTT be more dexterious than Lanfear or more skilled or have more knowledge? They shared the last two and the former is at Lanfear's advantage. LTT having control wouldn't have given Rand more strength, just knowlegdge, skill, experience, etc... All things that Lanfear has in equal amounts. So Rand must have been stronger than Lanfear then. I don't think Lanfear had the angreal until the end of the fight when she got up on the wagon.

 

And if Rand is stronger than her then, and he was only as strong as Asmodean at the end of tSR, just one book before he fought Lanfear, then I have a hard time seeing her as stronger than Asmodean. About equal I'd say. Which isn't to say she could wipe the floor with Asmodean of course. It's only a measurement of her brute strength, nothing more.

 

 

I don't understand. Share what? Why is Nynaeve better at healing. Why isn't Rand? I am not sure what you are saying but I don't think it's something you can learn. Some people are just better at something. Rand is LTT! He posses the same skill as LTT and no, Lanfear doesn't have the same skill. Doesn't matter how much one practices, there is only this much improvement you will ever make. And she had angreal...I could look for the exact line in the book..not now though...Probably she knew Rand had a angreal and didn't want to challenge directly..And even if they were equally matched, winner had to be more skillful! Look how that 14 year Sea Folk girl Talan owned Nynaeve even though she probably was weaker than Nyn in strength (she had potential to surpass Nyn)..

 

They share the same knowledge of weaves, the same experience. Some people are just intuitively good at fighting, but Lanfear never seemed to be bad at it. Why is why I'd expect a full strength LTT to defeat her. But a LTT barely stronger than Asmodean? Even with all his knowledge, and skill, that's a big difference.

 

I believe RJ said that Balthamel wouldn't have stood a chance against Aginor in a fight. And yet Aginor is no great fighter. So it was purely strength that made the difference.

 

All forsaken share same knowledge and experience as Rand. They all grew up in AoL and read and experienced stuff. We simply don't enough about Forsaken. ll their strength and positions are idle speculations. And that's why people should not take their posturing very seriously.

 

 

Aginor was a coward but if pressed in corner, he would have most people a challenge. We don't know for fact that Aginor had habit of losing in fight. He did boast that he matched LTT stroke for stroke. If that's true, than surely he couldn't have owned Balthamel. Aginor was a glorified nerd who lacked that killer instinct.

 

Exactly, the forsaken have the same knowledge and experience as LTT, so Lanfear would not have been disadventaged there.

 

 

But LTT beat Sammael, Ishy and what not...How? Ishy matched him in strength. Just because you know certain weave (you have seen it or read about it) doesn't mean you be good at it. LTT obviously learned more "weaves" than them/could manipulate five powers with more skill...others were left behind in these two areas I guess.

 

LTT was just better at fighting then them. Which is why he won, but he was at his strongest then, fighting with his full power. He wasn't (or wouldn't have been had Rand let him take control) when he fought Lanfear at the docks.

[WhiskyJack]

 

 

LTT was just better at fighting then them. Which is why he won, but he was at his strongest then, fighting with his full power. He wasn't (or wouldn't have been had Rand let him take control) when he fought Lanfear at the docks.

 

 

I am using your argument. At height of his power, LTT matched Ishmael in strength and they had same experience and knowledge. So why did he win twice? If he was at his full power, so was Ishmael.

[MasterAblar]

 

 

LTT was just better at fighting then them. Which is why he won, but he was at his strongest then, fighting with his full power. He wasn't (or wouldn't have been had Rand let him take control) when he fought Lanfear at the docks.

 

 

I am using your argument. At height of his power, LTT matched Ishmael in strength and they had same experience and knowledge. So why did he win twice? If he was at his full power, so was Ishmael.

 

Because LTT was just better, more skilled at fighting. LTT, and Ishammael had the same overall ability as channelers, but that doesn't mean they were equal in every area. Same goes for Lanfear in fact. She was a better dreamwalker than both of those, and they must have been better than her in some other areas.

It's quite possible that LTT, on top of all his non-channeling qualities, was profecient in numerous areas in terms of channeling.

[WhiskyJack]

 

 

LTT was just better at fighting then them. Which is why he won, but he was at his strongest then, fighting with his full power. He wasn't (or wouldn't have been had Rand let him take control) when he fought Lanfear at the docks.

 

 

I am using your argument. At height of his power, LTT matched Ishmael in strength and they had same experience and knowledge. So why did he win twice? If he was at his full power, so was Ishmael.

 

Because LTT was just better, more skilled at fighting. LTT, and Ishammael had the same overall ability as channelers, but that doesn't mean they were equal in every area. Same goes for Lanfear in fact. She was a better dreamwalker than both of those, and they must have been better than her in some other areas.

It's quite possible that LTT, on top of all his non-channeling qualities, was profecient in numerous areas in terms of channeling.

 

And that was my original point. LTT with less power could have beaten people channeling more power, some more than others. He knew how to make the most of what he had, unlike others. People are too hungover over raw power. Nynaeve is another example. She has too much raw power and probably can balefire everyone but she is not very good at fighting. Wouldn't surprise me if she ever went head to head against Graendal and got thoroughly ...abused. They are almost at same power level. Cyndane hurt Alivia bad(albeit a draw) even though she was drawing less power...And Alivia is suppose to be good..

[MasterAblar]

 

 

LTT was just better at fighting then them. Which is why he won, but he was at his strongest then, fighting with his full power. He wasn't (or wouldn't have been had Rand let him take control) when he fought Lanfear at the docks.

 

 

I am using your argument. At height of his power, LTT matched Ishmael in strength and they had same experience and knowledge. So why did he win twice? If he was at his full power, so was Ishmael.

 

Because LTT was just better, more skilled at fighting. LTT, and Ishammael had the same overall ability as channelers, but that doesn't mean they were equal in every area. Same goes for Lanfear in fact. She was a better dreamwalker than both of those, and they must have been better than her in some other areas.

It's quite possible that LTT, on top of all his non-channeling qualities, was profecient in numerous areas in terms of channeling.

 

And that was my original point. LTT with less power could have beaten people channeling more power, some more than others. He knew how to make the most of what he had, unlike others. People are too hungover over raw power. Nynaeve is another example. She has too much raw power and probably can balefire everyone but she is not very good at fighting. Wouldn't surprise me if she ever went head to head against Graendal and got thoroughly ...abused. They are almost at same power level. Cyndane hurt Alivia bad(albeit a draw) even though she was drawing less power...And Alivia is suppose to be good..

 

Nyneave is far less experienced than Graendel. And weaker in the power.

 

Cyndane being able to draw with Alivia shows how skilled she is. And yet LTT could have beat her at the docks with significantly less than his full potential. But he still must have had more than Lanfear then. If he was fighting someone lousy at fighting I could accept it simply being a difference in skill. But Lanfear can't be far from LTT in skill. Which means to me that in certain instances strength gives advantages, just as dexterity does in other instances.

[David Selig]

Anyone can beat anyone if plot convenience requires it. That's why I find all such discussions ultimately pointless.

[WhiskyJack]

 

Nyneave is far less experienced than Graendel. And weaker in the power.

 

Cyndane being able to draw with Alivia shows how skilled she is. And yet LTT could have beat her at the docks with significantly less than his full potential. But he still must have had more than Lanfear then. If he was fighting someone lousy at fighting I could accept it simply being a difference in skill. But Lanfear can't be far from LTT in skill. Which means to me that in certain instances strength gives advantages, just as dexterity does in other instances.

 

 

Your posts sound conflicted. One on hand you are supporting my point and on another you are opposing it?

Rand being not up to LTT is irrelevant. He was holding a "fat man". This would have made up for what LTTever had. Angreal or Sangreal gave great boost to one using and make their "personal" strength useless. Issue is not how much Rand was below LTT (probably very close) but who was drawing more power at moment considering both were using angreal. It could have been Narishma and wouldn't have made any difference if he had Callandor.

And why would you assume that Lanfear cannot be far from LTT in skill? Do we have any actual reference that supports this assertion?

 

P.|S: Rand was never ever significantly below LTT in strength, not when he fought Ishamel in first book nor when took on Sammael. At his weakest, Rand probably was as strong as Lanfear in strength. People think that there is huge gap sitting between one channeler and another. There probably isn't. When they Aginor was behind LTT, they probably mean on scale of 100, he was 98 or 99 while IShy/LTT were 100. yep..that's all. Rand probably started with 90 plus..Moaraine made that claim that in even in AoL, few could have handled so much power without aid, VERY few. That means Rand was never weak (already forsaken strength which is a lot).

[WhiskyJack]

Anyone can beat anyone if plot convenience requires it. That's why I find all such discussions ultimately pointless.

 

 

Bot lot of fun

[Guest Afroman]

<"Pure conjecture and opinion without any supporting proof" alert>

Just thought that I would add my two cents on the whole issue. Most people here are arguing about very specific details and trying to extrapolate those details to suit whatever it is that they are arguing at the time. I think it is completely pointless to try and rank forsaken in terms of power. I also think it is very nit-picky to discuss the technical differences between agility, proficiency, efficiency, endurance and power. Furthermore, trying to compare AoL channelers with 3rd Age channelers and having a heated debates on whether certain men are stronger than certain women, just because "on average" men were supposed to be stronger as individuals? What a waste of time...

 

I think that certain parts of ToM were simply devices to lead our imaginations in a certain direction. For instance, the whole issue of Rand destroying CK by drawing in too much power: Was it that he needed to disperse all the extra power that he was drawing and simply re-directed it into CK in order to not A)Destroy the world or B) Burn himself to a cinder? How's about just thinking of it as it was probably and most simply intended: Rand in that moment of clarity, when the DO had made his play for Rand's heart and soul, decided to give up "Ultimate Power" in the form of CK, so that he could regain something much better (His humanity). Don't you think that was how most people would have interpreted the situation? Nothing more scientific or in depth.

 

Also, I believe that Rand's awe-inspiring scene against the army of Fades and Trollocs was meant to be just that: Awe-inspiring. Just look at how it was written. I don't for the least bit think it was written in a tone that says: Rand has only reached the level of power that LTT reached. The whole passage screams: Something wondrous has happened to Rand. He has now turned into the champion of the Light that we have been waiting for in prophecy for possibly hundreds,if not thousands of years (or for us: 13 really thick and detailed books). The same goes for the scene with the apples. Sure it might be that he is simply exerting his Taveren (?sp) effects on the world around him in a positive way, but the whole scene screamed HOPE! When before there was looking to be none.

 

As for whether Rand is now stronger than LTT, it may not be correct, but it certainly could be. I think it is actually insinuated when Rand tells Min that he is LTT and that in the past, LTT was him. Not only that, but he says that he feels more himself now than he did as LTT, claiming it to be because of his childhood and rearing. If the entity that is both Rand and LTT now feels more like its' true self, then perhaps it is closer or in fact HAS reached its' fuller potential. It also makes sense that LTT had been slightly lacking back in AoL. He was not meant/destined to completely succeed. Rand is. It's always been about Rand, not LTT. Hence, it makes sense that he either becomes stronger/gains more clarity/achieves Zen/Jesus status (whatever you wish to call it) than his previous incarnation as LTT. Why didn't the pattern/creator/fate give such an oportunity to LTT? Because he was never meant to completely heal the bore... It was always mean to be Rand.

 

<"Even more conjecture and unvalidate opinion" alert>

The whole Light and Power discussion seems to be getting all too heated up here. Apparently people say that Rand purists think that Rand's level of power is still within his previous limits. The only difference being that he now has more insight into how to use it more effectively.

 

Other people say that the Light in his brain that is covering the dark taint is giving him extra powers. Others still say that he is now able to channel a different power altogether in the form of Light. Even others say that he is still using the True Power to exponentially increase his channeling capabilities... I agree with all except the last.

 

I think that if he were actually using the True Power, it would be a serious let down to the character that RJ and BS seem to be building. It seems to go against all the "Hope" moments that we've been witness to. Also, One Power and True Power seem to behave a little like Matter and Anti-Matter, hinted at by the effects of when RA and Ishy fired OP and TP balefire at each other.

 

The reason I think all the other theories can still fit together is this (Pls don't flame me. I know that some of this may be wrong/unsupported... and try not to argue too much about the minutia/detail... it's just sad when that happens... just try and enjoy the theory instead, even if you disagree):

 

The EotW was made to be pure Saidin, but it was made as I recall (and it's been more than a decade since I read it) by using both Saidin and Saidar. Those people died to keep it pure (as in separate from the DO's taint), but I think it is liquid because not only is it super concentrated, but it may also be infused with Saidar. As it was made to be Saidin, only a man can use it... but since it is impregnated with Saidar, when you use it, you are your own circle with both women and men linking.

 

The issue is this: Who said that only women can use Saidar and men can use Saidin? Only everyone... but is the proof only that no-one has yet been able to use the other side? The edges start to blur when male Forsaken are allowed to come back as women, but can still channel Saidin. Even if the soul/spirit was male before, why should that female be able to channel Saidin? Also, why can men sense women channeling? Nobody really knows. The One Power is about balance. We thought that balance meant (Women and Men)... but perhaps, just perhaps if you achieve Zen (One with everything, inner balance) you may just be able to infuse the opposite side of the One Power into your own channeling (ie. A man channeling Saidin, but a Saidin that is closer to the complete One Power).

 

Rand had to surrender to his destiny, to his humanity, to his emotions, to the fact that his destiny was WORTH the sacrifice. He surrendered just like how one surrenders to Saidar. Perhaps that's why, now that he is Zen Rand, he seems so much more powerful. His well of power is still the same size (in keeping with the Rand Purists), but just like the EotW, his well now contains something much purer and refined than the old Saidin that he used to channel (in keeping with those that think he can channel a new power: Light). It kind of also fits with those that attribute his power with the light covering his brain. The Dark thorns covering his brain were the DO's taint. Hence it makes sense that the light which cancels it out is the Creators "taint". We know that the OP comes from the creator. We know that Nynaeve could see it in Rand but not completely understand it... because it is a combination of Saidar and Saidin. It is the OP cancelling out the effects of the TP and he gained it from 1)Already being battle-hardened and focussed to wield Saidin and 2)Finally surrendering, allowing Saidar to complete him.

 

NB: I am no saying that Rand can channel Saidar, only that Saidin for him is closer to a complete and balanced OP than anyone else in the history of histories. His well did not increase in size, only the nature of the Saidin he wields. If anyone was meant to achieve this, it would be him.

 

NB2: I think somewhere in the series it also states that wielding the TP was akin to wielding CK. Perhaps that is because it is a complete power not a "Half-Power". Maybe a "Complete" OP could rival that and make a person's channeling stronger even though his well never grew larger. We all know that the most marvelous of works performed with the OP were made using both Saidar and Saidin (ie. a complete OP). This also could explain why Ishy is so much stronger now that he has fully committed himself to using the TP. He just never killed RA before, because he was acting on behalf of the DO and the DO wanted to turn RA... until the DO made his final play for RA's soul and lost in ToM. Now, if any confrontation were to take place, it would be for keeps. That would explain why RA thought he may have made a mistake in killing that army of Fades and Trollocs. He knows that the battle lines have been drawn. All that is left is for the battle to start... RA isn't quite ready just yet for that to happen.

 

Anyways, that was just my thoughts. Hope you enjoyed it. You can now tell me that I am wrong :)

[Kahsm]

Reading back a ways, I feel bad leaving WhiskyJack alone with Entreri on my day off. That looked painful. The bastardization of "logic" is astounding at times.

 

According to RJ, men have several levels on top of women (strength in power). Lanfear simply could not have matched Aginor in raw strength. Ofcourse it doesn't mean she couldn't have beaten him in fight.

 

So how strong do you think Lanfear is compared to the male forsaken. Equal to about who for example? I know stength doesn't mean everything of course, but the fact that

 

Hard to say..Probably strong enough to be stronger than weakest male forsaken (Asmo, Be'la or Balthamel..).

 

Rand could have beaten her despite the fact that he was still a ways away from his full potential seems to indicate that in certain instances, it's rather important.

 

Not Rand, LTT. The difference is profound..and Rand being way way weaker and probably not matching the angreal Lanfear was carrying meant that he was channeling less power than her.

 

And yet how could LTT be more dexterious than Lanfear or more skilled or have more knowledge? They shared the last two and the former is at Lanfear's advantage. LTT having control wouldn't have given Rand more strength, just knowlegdge, skill, experience, etc... All things that Lanfear has in equal amounts. So Rand must have been stronger than Lanfear then. I don't think Lanfear had the angreal until the end of the fight when she got up on the wagon.

 

And if Rand is stronger than her then, and he was only as strong as Asmodean at the end of tSR, just one book before he fought Lanfear, then I have a hard time seeing her as stronger than Asmodean. About equal I'd say. Which isn't to say she could wipe the floor with Asmodean of course. It's only a measurement of her brute strength, nothing more.

 

As for LTT beating Lanfear. I think it just had to do with the fact that Lanfear sees rand as an untrained child, worse than how she sees the Aes Sedai. Had LTT taken over, that would instantly have changed and Lanfear would have no time to react. It has very little to do with how powerful one or the other was. Lanfear would have just been taken in a blitz from something she'd feel is impossible for Rand to know.

 

She very well may be more skilled than a brute-force man, but she'd have no warning to up her game.

 

As for Dem's strength: I don't believe the forsaken were originally measured on how much OP they could hold. I think "strongest" was related to various talents that made them useful to the DO. I think Moghedien was chosen because she was a T'A'R master, and is actually not relatively spectacular with the OP. Which is why a barely-trained Nynaeve beat her. Dem's skill with troops could be his power factor, we don't know. If it was so easy to figure out people's OP levels, then they wouldn't still be so closed mouthed and secretive about it. They might even link more than... never.

 

And then there's all the secret angreal and stuff Graendal said they have on them. Plus the fact the Men could just low-ball themselves all the time. So maybe Ishy only ever held just slightly more than Lanfear could, but he actually had the potential to wield much more. No way to know for a guy.

[Entreri]

 

 

And that defeats your point because Rand probably was channeling LESS power than Lanfear. No magic saidin back then..no DRAGON LORD either..

 

You are just being childish, I have already shown why you are incorrect.

 

If you want further confirmation, you can ask Brandon about men vs. women in the Power.

 

 

Shown what? Please do tell. Are you telling me that Rand was channeling more power than Lanfear? Have you proven that? Is that what you have shown and want me to ask Brandon? Why do I care about random question. I am asking you the specific. WAS RAND CHANNELING LESS OR MORE POWER THAN LANFEAR DURING THE FIGHT? Not that hard to answer..

 

And since you keep repeating Rahvin, he was LYING. Even RJ has confimed that you cannot take forsaken for what they say. I posted 2 links from 13 depository which proves that Rahvin's comment was real as Ishmael claiming that he and LTT had fought countless and Dragon has always lost..blah blah blah...

 

 

Rahvin > Lanfear Sammael > Lanfear. Rahvin would never include Sammael in his comment if he was boasting. Q.E.D

 

Does the 13 depository have comments from the authors regarding this scenario?

 

Men are MUCH STRONGER in the Power than women.

 

Was Rand channeling less or more power than Lanfear? That is difficult to say, given Rand's superior strength + inferior angreal vs. Lanfear's inferior strength + superior angreal. It also depends on when Lanfear started using the angreal. Given that LTT was very likely the most skillfull channeler, then having him 'take over', Rand could have won the fight. There are too many variables to have a definite answer.

 

See Alivia vs. Cyndane on the impact of skill level.

 

Read the link..Jesus man, you are really are unbeleiable.

 

I mean this is just funny:

It also depends on when Lanfear started using the angreal. Given that LTT was very likely the most skillfull channeler, then having him 'take over', Rand could have won the fight

 

I mean really, you will just invent ANYTHING to support your point. RJ actually had a scale and he put 21 level for women(Lanfear) and 24 for men (LTT/ISHY). So strongest man is 3 levels above strongest women. Not that much gap really. Now Rand was probably at 22 at the time and Lanfear 21. So do explain to me how he could have held "more power". If he didn't and LTT could have beaten Lanfear by skill (using less power), how exactly that proves you right?

 

You are assuming the levels are linear in scale: 21/24 = 88%. Then men would NOT BE much stronger than women, and the difference WOULD NOT BE similar to arm strength. The difference would essentailly be inconsquential.

 

With almost no difference in men and women, there would not be any need for 13 linked AS, 6 linked to hold a man.

 

Let me once again spell it out:

If the strongest man is equally skilled as the strongest woman, in a one-on-one face-to-face battle, the man would win, given no balefire is used. Balefire = great equalizer.

 

Actual quote from RJ:

 

Regarding the levels of male strength, while the weakest man and the weakest woman would be roughly equivalent, you might say that there are several levels of male strength on top of the female levels. Remember to integrate this with what I've said elsewhere about effectiveness, though.

 

So actually yes, you just add 3/4 level on TOP of women..Precisely what he meant..Example of hand was just an example. Otherwise women would be so weak that not one women could ever join the rank of "Chosen". It will be 100% men. Women on average are weaker than men but some women are very very strong.

 

13 link was INVENTED to insure that weakest possible female channelers could tame strongest possible male channeler. Also Lanfear strength (or even Graendel strength) was very very rare. That's what made them special! Women simply never reached those levels. LTT has said in one book that 3 forsaken women could have easily shielded him. 3, NOT 13. Never mind, you are good at ignoring stuff like that. Nynaever is stonger than ANY male channeler in 3rd age except Rand/Taim/Logain. Unless you are claiming that she can beat all these men in arm wrestling...

 

For bold part, good dealing with hypothetical! Unfortunately, those kind of men are very rare and you just don't become skillful because you are strong in OP.

 

We don't actually how strong all the ashaman are so I wouldn't necessarily say that only Rand, Taim, and Logain are stronger than Nyneave.

 

Exactly. This is pure assumption, and likely erroneous since there are now 1000+ men who can channel. When Taim and his 2 Asha'man met, they had no concern when they thought there were 2 AS in the room linked. Rand had no concern even with 6 AS, Logain may have broken through shield held by 5.

 

E.g: Naeff is weaker now, however it is unlikely he has reached his full potential. Naeff being only weaker, would still be stronger than Elayne et al.

 

 

24, 21 scales for men and women cannot be equivalent. Otherwise, the strongest woman would be almost 90% of the strength of the strongest man, and given the dexterity bonus, very easily greater than the strongest man and given the women's ability to link = women channelers >>>>> men channelers = Dragon would be female and so would the Nae'blis.

 

We know for a fact that Rahvin knew he or Sammael would "OVERWHELM" Lanfear". This is not a boast, because Rahvin included Sammael. AoLers would know about the strength limitations of the opposite sex and women's dexterity bonus intimately (linking, greatest wonders in AoL created by men and women, the advanced nature of their society/science, channeling being around for many 1000's of years).

 

Thus, a woman has a disadvantage facing a man in battle, however, due to their abilty to link, there is balance, or women >= men. Read what Asmodean said.

[Entreri]

Reading back a ways, I feel bad leaving WhiskyJack alone with Entreri on my day off. That looked painful. The bastardization of "logic" is astounding at times.

 

According to RJ, men have several levels on top of women (strength in power). Lanfear simply could not have matched Aginor in raw strength. Ofcourse it doesn't mean she couldn't have beaten him in fight.

 

So how strong do you think Lanfear is compared to the male forsaken. Equal to about who for example? I know stength doesn't mean everything of course, but the fact that

 

Hard to say..Probably strong enough to be stronger than weakest male forsaken (Asmo, Be'la or Balthamel..).

 

Rand could have beaten her despite the fact that he was still a ways away from his full potential seems to indicate that in certain instances, it's rather important.

 

Not Rand, LTT. The difference is profound..and Rand being way way weaker and probably not matching the angreal Lanfear was carrying meant that he was channeling less power than her.

 

And yet how could LTT be more dexterious than Lanfear or more skilled or have more knowledge? They shared the last two and the former is at Lanfear's advantage. LTT having control wouldn't have given Rand more strength, just knowlegdge, skill, experience, etc... All things that Lanfear has in equal amounts. So Rand must have been stronger than Lanfear then. I don't think Lanfear had the angreal until the end of the fight when she got up on the wagon.

 

And if Rand is stronger than her then, and he was only as strong as Asmodean at the end of tSR, just one book before he fought Lanfear, then I have a hard time seeing her as stronger than Asmodean. About equal I'd say. Which isn't to say she could wipe the floor with Asmodean of course. It's only a measurement of her brute strength, nothing more.

 

As for LTT beating Lanfear. I think it just had to do with the fact that Lanfear sees rand as an untrained child, worse than how she sees the Aes Sedai. Had LTT taken over, that would instantly have changed and Lanfear would have no time to react. It has very little to do with how powerful one or the other was. Lanfear would have just been taken in a blitz from something she'd feel is impossible for Rand to know.

 

She very well may be more skilled than a brute-force man, but she'd have no warning to up her game.

 

As for Dem's strength: I don't believe the forsaken were originally measured on how much OP they could hold. I think "strongest" was related to various talents that made them useful to the DO. I think Moghedien was chosen because she was a T'A'R master, and is actually not relatively spectacular with the OP. Which is why a barely-trained Nynaeve beat her. Dem's skill with troops could be his power factor, we don't know. If it was so easy to figure out people's OP levels, then they wouldn't still be so closed mouthed and secretive about it. They might even link more than... never.

 

And then there's all the secret angreal and stuff Graendal said they have on them. Plus the fact the Men could just low-ball themselves all the time. So maybe Ishy only ever held just slightly more than Lanfear could, but he actually had the potential to wield much more. No way to know for a guy.

 

Pure assmption, once again. With no factual evidence (books, RJ or Sanderson quotes).

 

Demandred is "almost" LTT, mentioned throughout the books, and really he is the only Chosen not to be humilated or killed. Once AMOL comes out, we will see his true capabilities.

[Kahsm]

Reading back a ways, I feel bad leaving WhiskyJack alone with Entreri on my day off. That looked painful. The bastardization of "logic" is astounding at times.

 

According to RJ, men have several levels on top of women (strength in power). Lanfear simply could not have matched Aginor in raw strength. Ofcourse it doesn't mean she couldn't have beaten him in fight.

 

So how strong do you think Lanfear is compared to the male forsaken. Equal to about who for example? I know stength doesn't mean everything of course, but the fact that

 

Hard to say..Probably strong enough to be stronger than weakest male forsaken (Asmo, Be'la or Balthamel..).

 

Rand could have beaten her despite the fact that he was still a ways away from his full potential seems to indicate that in certain instances, it's rather important.

 

Not Rand, LTT. The difference is profound..and Rand being way way weaker and probably not matching the angreal Lanfear was carrying meant that he was channeling less power than her.

 

And yet how could LTT be more dexterious than Lanfear or more skilled or have more knowledge? They shared the last two and the former is at Lanfear's advantage. LTT having control wouldn't have given Rand more strength, just knowlegdge, skill, experience, etc... All things that Lanfear has in equal amounts. So Rand must have been stronger than Lanfear then. I don't think Lanfear had the angreal until the end of the fight when she got up on the wagon.

 

And if Rand is stronger than her then, and he was only as strong as Asmodean at the end of tSR, just one book before he fought Lanfear, then I have a hard time seeing her as stronger than Asmodean. About equal I'd say. Which isn't to say she could wipe the floor with Asmodean of course. It's only a measurement of her brute strength, nothing more.

 

As for LTT beating Lanfear. I think it just had to do with the fact that Lanfear sees rand as an untrained child, worse than how she sees the Aes Sedai. Had LTT taken over, that would instantly have changed and Lanfear would have no time to react. It has very little to do with how powerful one or the other was. Lanfear would have just been taken in a blitz from something she'd feel is impossible for Rand to know.

 

She very well may be more skilled than a brute-force man, but she'd have no warning to up her game.

 

As for Dem's strength: I don't believe the forsaken were originally measured on how much OP they could hold. I think "strongest" was related to various talents that made them useful to the DO. I think Moghedien was chosen because she was a T'A'R master, and is actually not relatively spectacular with the OP. Which is why a barely-trained Nynaeve beat her. Dem's skill with troops could be his power factor, we don't know. If it was so easy to figure out people's OP levels, then they wouldn't still be so closed mouthed and secretive about it. They might even link more than... never.

 

And then there's all the secret angreal and stuff Graendal said they have on them. Plus the fact the Men could just low-ball themselves all the time. So maybe Ishy only ever held just slightly more than Lanfear could, but he actually had the potential to wield much more. No way to know for a guy.

 

Pure assmption, once again. With no factual evidence (books, RJ or Sanderson quotes).

 

Demandred is "almost" LTT, mentioned throughout the books, and really he is the only Chosen not to be humilated or killed. Once AMOL comes out, we will see his true capabilities.

 

Well, the BWB explains explicitly that Aes Sedai were not ranked by OP. And since the 13 strongest were chosen in the AOL it seems to be more of a logical step than "pure assumption" that strength wouldn't mean OP level when it didn't at the time. Also consider from the DO's perspective. Dem is winning battles for you all over the place. Who cares what his OP strength is? Either way he's one of the strongest when it comes to pushing the DO agenda. Same likely for Mohg in T'A'R. You would want to keep talented people like that close, despite their OP.

 

Also, Dem was a general like LTT, so they very well could be close on the battle field. That could have little to do with their OP. Also, who knows what sort of OP trinkets Dem had when they went head to head. Or, maybe Dem's near abilities to LTT are just exaggerated like we know Aginor's was.

 

So no, I have no direct, undeniable, factual quotes. But neither do you, as I just gave about 3 alternate explanations for your one quote. Instead, my supposition that the 13 "most powerful" Chosen, is not completely based on their OP levels is backed up by what we know of the AOL when the ranking was made. Something current AS may have misinterpreted, since their culture is all about power level now.

[WhiskyJack]

Demandred was never mentioned almost LTT in "power, "strength" or whatever the hell you wanna define, Kael. People just take it for granted. No one has ever made any observation about Demandred's strength in OP. Comment about his "skill" is connected to whatever he did before life...Only thing we are told about forsaken (none of which is credible) that they were strongest in OP. Still the fact that Ishmael/Agnior, two known forsaken and probably the strongest out of 13 well less famous than Demandred says a lot of "strength" as tool for success. We don't know anything about forsaken who died and there is no reason to believe that few men were stronger than Demandred. Hell what about the men on light side. DO we know their strength? 113 men who followed LTT were considered quite powerful.

People have obsession to link success and "skill" with power.

[Kahsm]

Demandred was never mentioned almost LTT in "power, "strength" or whatever the hell you wanna define, Kael. People just take it for granted. No one has ever made any observation about Demandred's strength in OP. Comment about his "skill" is connected to whatever he did before life...Only thing we are told about forsaken (none of which is credible) that they were strongest in OP. Still the fact that Ishmael/Agnior, two known forsaken and probably the strongest out of 13 well less famous than Demandred says a lot of "strength" as tool for success. We don't know anything about forsaken who died and there is no reason to believe that few men were stronger than Demandred. Hell what about the men on light side. DO we know their strength? 113 men who followed LTT were considered quite powerful.

People have obsession to link success and "skill" with power.

 

Why do you think Aginor was OP strong (relative to other forsaken)? Did RJ say so? Because I only remember him bragging about himself, and I'd guess that's the least reliable source. Then he blew himself up while Rand seemed to have no issue sucking through all the power of the eye. So we see he's no LTT by any means.

 

Other that that, I agree we have no idea how they rank. Since as I suggest the shadow isn't going to dump it's top general just because some scrub might have been born with a sliver more power.

[David Selig]

From the Guide:

 

The second most powerful man, known by the Forsaken name Aginor, came close to rivaling Lews Therin and Ishamael in strength.