Female characterization in tWoT

[Zentari]

 

 

And I doubt whether it's even relevant. Is there anything a man can do with saidin that a woman can't do with saidar? Yes, men tend to be stronger in Earth and Fire (but Egwene can sense metals and make cuendillar) and women tend to be stronger in Water, Air, and Spirit; but these are generalisations.

Spirit is distributed evenly.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

the one power is forever off limits for most of the population.

 

(yeah, pratchett never disappoints )

 

(um, on topic, lord help me, but myrelle did what she did to save lives. i really think the author's intent tends to get overlooked.)

[Guest PiotrekS]

Myrelle did what she did to save Lan's life and add a chief wolf to her trophy wolf collection, so to speak

 

But I wouldn't call her a rapist nor condemn her too much. If I recall, when that happened Lan was determined not to be with Nynaeve.

[FarShainMael]

 

 

And I doubt whether it's even relevant. Is there anything a man can do with saidin that a woman can't do with saidar? Yes, men tend to be stronger in Earth and Fire (but Egwene can sense metals and make cuendillar) and women tend to be stronger in Water, Air, and Spirit; but these are generalisations.

Spirit is distributed evenly.

 

Thanks for that!

[sleepinghour]

Myrelle had to use the bond to compel Lan to have sex with her? Wow, never thought about that...

 

Is it pretty clear? I don't think we have any evidence about it and it seems more likely that Lan was feeling so lost at the moment that he could have done it without any external compulsion.

I think it was pretty strongly implied that she had, and that Lan was aware of it in ACoS:

 

In a louder voice, she [Myrelle] called, "Come to me." The horse did not move. A wolfhound mourning his dead mistress did not come to a new mistress willingly. Delicately she wove Spirit and touched the part of him that contained her bond; it had to be delicate, or he would be aware of it, and only the Creator knew what sort of explosion might result. "Come to me."

- Lord of Chaos

 

Murmuring something to Lan, Myrelle touched his arm. He flinched slightly, like a nervous horse, but his hard face never turned from Egwene.

- A Crown of Swords

I took his reaction to mean that he was aware Myrelle had been compelling him and understandably not happy about it. (In fact, Lan is the one who tells Egwene that she now has a hold on Myrelle and Nisao.)

 

I don't think it was a coincidence that ACoS had four different types of rapes/non-consensual relationships (Myrelle/Lan, Tylin/Mat, Valda/Morgase, Shaidar Haran/Moghedien), but whatever point RJ was trying to make with Tylin/Mat, I think it was handled badly, in particular Elayne's reaction and Mat's later Stockholm Syndrome.

[yoniy0]

A bit of context on that LoC quote. Niaso was right there with the both of them. Whatever you believe Myrelle did later, she didn't actually bed him then and there. And I see no reason to assume she would've had to compel him via the Bond. As mentioned before, he was determined not to see Nynaeve again. Should he abstain for the rest of his life? Not to mention he was an emotional mess; it couldn't have been too hard for Myrelle to seduce him (let's be frank for a minute. Most men, when not in a relationship, won't turn down a pretty woman).

[sleepinghour]

A bit of context on that LoC quote. Niaso was right there with the both of them. Whatever you believe Myrelle did later, she didn't actually bed him then and there. And I see no reason to assume she would've had to compel him via the Bond. As mentioned before, he was determined not to see Nynaeve again. Should he abstain for the rest of his life? Not to mention he was an emotional mess; it couldn't have been too hard for Myrelle to seduce him (let's be frank for a minute. Most men, when not in a relationship, won't turn down a pretty woman).

No, not in LoC, but the scene showed that 1) Lan didn't want to go to her, 2) Myrelle had no qualms about Compelling him through the bond just because he wouldn't do as she said. He wasn't trying to harm himself or doing anything else that made it necessary for her to take his free will away; he just didn't want to go to her. So the whole relationship starts out on a pretty disturbing note, even if she wanted to save Lan.

 

At that point, Lan was basically just waiting for a chance to die. I don't think he would have willingly slept with Myrelle when it would only have made the situation messier if she became emotionally attached to him (since she's married to all three of her other Warders, she clearly has a history of that). And I don't know how else to explain him flinching from her touch and encouraging Egwene to use her hold on Myrelle and Nisao. Those things struck me as very un-Lan-like.

 

Myrelle was later forced by the Green Sitters to bond Kairen's former (and highly unattractive) Warder Llew, so she ends up bonded to and having to sleep with a man she doesn't want, which sounds a lot like WoT-style karma at work. I don't think Myrelle did anything terrible by agreeing to take over Lan's bond (it was Moiraine's idea and intended to save Lan), so it makes no sense for her to end up punished in this way if she never did anything worse.

[yoniy0]

Those things struck me as very un-Lan-like.

The flinching, perhaps. But helping Egwene... no. Lan has started helping the Two Rivers folk since TEotW, and helped Rand against (what he was sure to know was) Siuan's wishes in TGH. He knows how much Nynaeve cares for Egwene, why wouldn't he help her? He's made it clear that he doesn't approve of being handed over to Myrelle, why should he be loyal to her above Egwene?

 

(and highly unattractive)

NS makes it clear that Lan himself was unattractive in his twenties. I'm sure the years didn't help.

 

I don't think Myrelle did anything terrible by agreeing to take over Lan's bond (it was Moiraine's idea and intended to save Lan), so it makes no sense for her to end up punished in this way if she never did anything worse.

But you ignore the fact that this is exactly the reason she's being punished. Egwene threatened her with the discovery of what she did with the transfer of Lan's Bond (Moiraine should probably fear this discovery as well, but as far as Egwene knew Moiraine was beyond punishment). As she said - it's akin to rape to Bond someone against their wishes (worse, in my book, as you're actually endangering their lives). The motivation doesn't excuse the crime, usually.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I think that Lan's reactions can be explained as well by:

1) He didn't feel right in this situation with Myrelle

2) If he slept with her voluntarily, he could be regretting that and this regret and discomfort would show by e.g, this flinching

 

So we don't really know if she used her bond for anything else than compelling him to come to her. I can hardly believe that, because:

1) Myrelle might not be everyone's favorite Aes Sedai, but she's not evil. This would be obviously rape, not just "something considered akin to rape" - and even the decision to move his bond was made by Moiraine.

2) If she indeed had compelled him in that way, he would be furious and I don't believe he would keep silent, even taking into account his Malkieri ways. It would be a very serious crime.

3) Forcing a man to sleep with her is hardly something a beautiful woman like Myrelle would like doing. I guess it would feel pretty demeaning for her as well as for him.

 

By the way, I don't think it is fair to compare what Myrelle did to Alanna's deed. Here the alternative was suicidal frenzy for Lan and certain death. There are other examples of bonds formed with life-saving intentions and I can't recall whether in both occasions the bond-holder even asked for permission (Elayne-Brigitte and Egwene- Gawyn)

[Himiko]

I don't know that Egwene asked Gawyn for permission in as many words, but she said something like "I'm going to bond you", to which he replied "Not until I know this is what you want". She tells him it is, and bonding occurs. So consent was obtained, or at least implied, its pretty clear Gawyn will willingly be bonded to her. I don't believe Elayne was able to ask Birgitte, but as I recall, it was a spur of the moment decision, it wasn't premeditated as the decision to change Lan's bond over is.

 

I think I'll have to read through the older books to remember what my first impression with Lan/Myrelle was. On the one hand, I understand with Moiraine passing the bond to Myrelle, it was done with the intention (of both of them, so far as we know) of keeping Lan alive when Moiraine "died". I remember feeling that Lan didn't seem happy with Myrelle, but whether I thought she was compelling him, or that he simply felt miserable, I don't know...

[sleepinghour]

The flinching, perhaps. But helping Egwene... no. Lan has started helping the Two Rivers folk since TEotW, and helped Rand against (what he was sure to know was) Siuan's wishes in TGH. He knows how much Nynaeve cares for Egwene, why wouldn't he help her? He's made it clear that he doesn't approve of being handed over to Myrelle, why should he be loyal to her above Egwene?

He's still a Borderlander, and even if he's no longer as excessively chivalric to women as he was in NS, it seems pretty dishonorable to suggest blackmail of a woman he had slept with if she really hadn't done anything worse (as far as he knew) than go along with Moiraine's request. Sure, Lan was furious about it in TGH, but he knew it was to save his life and that Moiraine was the one who'd asked for it. He later tells Nynaeve that Myrelle would have "a year or more of pain" after he dies, so you'd think he would feel that was punishment enough. She had also already been blackmailed by Nicola and Areina.

 

And the flinch makes no sense otherwise, particularly for a guy like Lan whose eyelash twitches are said to be the equivalent of another man fainting (or whatever the comparison was).

 

NS makes it clear that Lan himself was unattractive in his twenties. I'm sure the years didn't help.

Llyw's said to be "wide as a horse" and resemble an Ogier. That sounds more like Gaidal Cain levels of ugly, which I don't think Lan is quite at. :p There's also a scene in KoD from Romanda's POV where the Sitters are gossiping over having seen Myrelle walking with Llyw and looking miserable, and the Green Sitter says she twisted Myrelle's arm. So she definitely wasn't doing it willingly and wasn't happy about it.

 

But you ignore the fact that this is exactly the reason she's being punished. Egwene threatened her with the discovery of what she did with the transfer of Lan's Bond (Moiraine should probably fear this discovery as well, but as far as Egwene knew Moiraine was beyond punishment). As she said - it's akin to rape to Bond someone against their wishes (worse, in my book, as you're actually endangering their lives). The motivation doesn't excuse the crime, usually.

Birgitte did not consent to being bonded, either, but would have died if Elayne hadn't. Lan would also have died shortly after Moiraine if she hadn't arranged for the bond to pass. That's why I'm willing to cut Moiraine and Myrelle a lot more slack on that than Alanna.

[sleepinghour]

1) Myrelle might not be everyone's favorite Aes Sedai, but she's not evil. This would be obviously rape, not just "something considered akin to rape" - and even the decision to move his bond was made by Moiraine.

I don't think Myrelle is evil either, or Tylin and Alanna for that matter. While she was clearly attracted to Lan (Nisao said as much, and Moiraine mentioned back in TGH that Myrelle had wanted to keep him instead of passing his bond along), I think she did it mostly because he wasn't getting any better; he had completely given up on living in ACoS. It's part of what sisters do to save suicidal Warders, after all, so it's not unthinkable that someone like Myrelle would decide to Compel him into bed under those circumstances.

 

Her thoughts when she Compels Lan in LoC ("A wolfhound mourning his dead mistress did not come to a new mistress willingly.") demonstrate a general lack of care about consent, as do her comments to Egwene in ACoS:

 

"Mother, passing a bond is not that bad. Why, in point of fact, it's no more than a woman deciding who should have her husband if she dies, to see he is in the right hands."

Which also sounds like a pretty questionable practice (like Tylin, Myrelle is from Ebou Dar) where it's the woman's wishes and not the man's that matters.

 

2) If she indeed had compelled him in that way, he would be furious and I don't believe he would keep silent, even taking into account his Malkieri ways. It would be a very serious crime.

What exactly could he have done about it? Myrelle had complete control over him through the bond. If he had gone to the Salidar camp and told other Aes Sedai that Myrelle had taken his bond without permission, that would have changed public opinion of Moiraine from legend to criminal. There's no way Lan would have done anything to ruin Moiraine's reputation, not when it took her twenty years and sacrificing her life to earn it.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

Dragonmount is one of the places I come to relax and get away from my day job (which partly includes educating the public as to the nature and extent of sexism). I'd have to say, my natural instinct is to point out the multiple misunderstandings and bad information that some of you folks have.* But that's really tiresome, and I'm not even sure that I would be able to do so without going off-topic (despite the nature of this thread!). I'm also well aware that plenty of people would rather be quietly comfortable in their worldview and aren't actually interested in acknowledging or understanding the sexism in our world and in Robert Jordan's world.

 

So, if we can all agree to not treat people on the basis of their sex, and to allow and encourage people to do with their lives whatever they want without regard to their sex, then I'm willing to leave it at that. Anyone who explicitly wants me to reply to their post can ask. And I'll continue to call out egregious sexism when I see it.**

 

* For instance, just to pick one thing off the top of my head, the differences between the sexes in height, shape, and weight are also reproductive in nature, contrary to what somebody claimed. Male aggression (including height and musculature) evolved as a vehicle for males to compete to pass on their genes, and it happened to succeed well enough to result in significant dimorphism. Females are closer to the genetic base line, although some of their muscular potential has been diverted to reproductive fat due to energy limitations.

 

** E.g., that person who stubbornly stuck to his guns upthread saying that male rape isn't a problem. I'm coming back to that as soon as I have the time.

[Massive]

[Removed]

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

[Removed]

 

If helping people broaden their understanding of the world were as simple as insulting them, we'd all be rich with wisdom here on the Internet. Ask yourself what you would like to add to this discussion, before you post.

[Massive]

[Removed]

[nojnomad]

Neither one of you is being constructive on this topic. So cut it out!

This is a fantasy book written by an author with a bias of... I DON'T CARE!!!

These topics of how sexist is this author are ruining a perfectly good discussion about (pay attention) a fantasy world! It has absolutely exactly nothing to do with reality and if you can't get over yourselves and realize this is supposed to be fun you will drive people like me away from this site altogether.

I already can't read the hateful drivel spouted by some of the posters on this site and if I hear one more, "Robert Jordan was a sexist..." rant i am guna scream.

[Kal11]

Dragonmount is one of the places I come to relax and get away from my day job (which partly includes educating the public as to the nature and extent of sexism). I'd have to say, my natural instinct is to point out the multiple misunderstandings and bad information that some of you folks have.* But that's really tiresome, and I'm not even sure that I would be able to do so without going off-topic (despite the nature of this thread!). I'm also well aware that plenty of people would rather be quietly comfortable in their worldview and aren't actually interested in acknowledging or understanding the sexism in our world and in Robert Jordan's world.

 

So, if we can all agree to not treat people on the basis of their sex, and to allow and encourage people to do with their lives whatever they want without regard to their sex, then I'm willing to leave it at that. Anyone who explicitly wants me to reply to their post can ask. And I'll continue to call out egregious sexism when I see it.**

 

* For instance, just to pick one thing off the top of my head, the differences between the sexes in height, shape, and weight are also reproductive in nature, contrary to what somebody claimed. Male aggression (including height and musculature) evolved as a vehicle for males to compete to pass on their genes, and it happened to succeed well enough to result in significant dimorphism. Females are closer to the genetic base line, although some of their muscular potential has been diverted to reproductive fat due to energy limitations.

 

** E.g., that person who stubbornly stuck to his guns upthread saying that male rape isn't a problem. I'm coming back to that as soon as I have the time.

 

Does that mean you will stop using the name Mieren and call the character by her self-chosen name Lanfear? Will you stop making up excuses and rationalizations, that are often in direct conflict with both the story and it's author's own words describing her, that cover Lanfear's character flaws and motivations to revision her as a champion of good intent and feminist empowerment? You do a hell of a lot of superimposing your own beliefs and wishes onto the story and characters and are being a complete hypocrite. A woman does not act the way you think she should so you entirely recreate her in your mind (thinking you are being open-minded and fair no less I am sure).

 

Seriously, you are one of the most preachy and argumentative posters on this site to anyone that doesn't fall in lockstep with your personal worldview. Almost every word you type is steeped in personal bias and agenda. You complain about wanting to step away from your day job and relax, perhaps you should consider that others do not want to be forcefully indoctrinated by your zealous obsession.

[yoniy0]

Okay, everyone, play nice now.

[Zentari]

Dragonmount is one of the places I come to relax and get away from my day job (which partly includes educating the public as to the nature and extent of sexism). I'd have to say, my natural instinct is to point out the multiple misunderstandings and bad information that some of you folks have.* But that's really tiresome, and I'm not even sure that I would be able to do so without going off-topic (despite the nature of this thread!). I'm also well aware that plenty of people would rather be quietly comfortable in their worldview and aren't actually interested in acknowledging or understanding the sexism in our world and in Robert Jordan's world.

Sorry but this translates roughly into "I'm not gonna bother with you".

 

 

* For instance, just to pick one thing off the top of my head, the differences between the sexes in height, shape, and weight are also reproductive in nature, contrary to what somebody claimed. Male aggression (including height and musculature) evolved as a vehicle for males to compete to pass on their genes, and it happened to succeed well enough to result in significant dimorphism. Females are closer to the genetic base line, although some of their muscular potential has been diverted to reproductive fat due to energy limitations.

Sources for that ? The genetic base line sounds pretty vague to be sure.

[Guest PiotrekS]

 

So, if we can all agree to not treat people on the basis of their sex, and to allow and encourage people to do with their lives whatever they want without regard to their sex, then I'm willing to leave it at that.

 

I'm all for that

 

I respect your passion for the subject Emu and I'm sorry some people jumped on you because of that, but unfortunately it could be caused not only by the lurking sexism on the site, but IMHO also by unnecessarily condescending and Egwene-ish tone of some of your posts. It is a mistake I also sometimes make.

 

 

For instance, just to pick one thing off the top of my head, the differences between the sexes in height, shape, and weight are also reproductive in nature, contrary to what somebody claimed. Male aggression (including height and musculature) evolved as a vehicle for males to compete to pass on their genes, and it happened to succeed well enough to result in significant dimorphism. Females are closer to the genetic base line, although some of their muscular potential has been diverted to reproductive fat due to energy limitations.

 

Maybe, although I have to say that your statement on genetics and evolutionary history isn't perfectly clear to me.

 

But the point is - even if everything in your statement is 100% correct, what does it mean? Of course each and every aspect of our biological existence has an evolutionary significance (which means essentially survival/reproduction). Nobody's saying that the differences have any "meaning" or that they have been predetermined in some Platonic outer space . But they exist, as you yourself have admitted. So yes, they are "arbitrary" - it is simply something that worked well enough to survive and flourish in our evolutionary history.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

I respect your passion for the subject Emu and I'm sorry some people jumped on you because of that, but unfortunately it could be caused not only by the lurking sexism on the site, but IMHO also by unnecessarily condescending and Egwene-ish tone of some of your posts. It is a mistake I also sometimes make.

 

Yeah, I goofed up. I could have been a kinder, gentler emu, and that would have ruffled fewer feathers I'm sure.

 

Sexism is a huge issue in our world, and most people are sexist in little (and big) ways without even realizing it. That's in addition to the ways in which some people are knowingly sexist.

 

I spent the other evening comforting a friend because she had been in line at the store when a group of people (adults, no less!) behind her started making fun of her for having short hair. They said it made her look like a boy, and they did it with a mean-spiritedness that forced her to leave the store.

 

For one thing, she had lost her hair a few months ago because she was sick. It wasn't her choice to have short hair. But for another thing, how on Earth does having short hair make you look like a boy? It doesn't. Hair length has nothing to do with sex. Both sexes can and do grow their hair to all kinds of different lengths, depending on personal preference and on the cultural attitudes of the day. She was upset not only that they were so mean-spirited, but that they were so judgmental toward her on the basis of something so silly.

 

What I was talking about in some of my posts upthread is that "gender," unlike biological sex, is the result of choices we make as a society. Stuff like hair length. We don't do ourselves any favors by believing that males do or should gravitate toward short hair and females toward long hair, because it isn't objectively true. And that causes hardship like what happened the other night...and happens everywhere, all over the world, continually.

 

Some people in this thread are clearly sexist and proud of it, and I know I'm not going to change their minds. I see the ugliness of bigotry all the time. Anyone who would willingly sign on to that hatefulness is scum, or at least very ignorant. I don't write about this stuff for their benefit.

 

The people who interest me are the ones who haven't given the subject much thought, and who genuinely want to be more compassionate and more self-aware in their lives. Well, I have a lot of experience with this stuff. People don't have to believe what I say. I never ask that, because really I'm just some emu running around on the loose. But I would like people to at least listen, so that their mental appetites can be whetted and they can explore these issues for themselves. I obviously come at it from an opinionated point of view, but, hey, screw my opinion. It's an opening in the door...a beginning for other people to broaden their own horizons.

 

I probably lost points by illustrating the sexism in WoT and then getting onto the subject of sex versus gender. I guess that made me seem like a troll who isn't worth listening to. Truth be told, I enjoy WoT. I wouldn't come here otherwise. But I have my criticisms of it, too. I hope people can understand the distinction. The sexism in WoT is a big criticism I have. I'm not sorry to point it out, even if it causes people some discomfort. I can only be sorry if I do not explain myself clearly enough.

 

I'll tell you a truth about the world. If you look back at the abolitionists, the suffragettes, the unionists, the civil rights activists...these people were all activists who helped change the world for the better. However, they achieved their gains by stepping on a lot of people's toes. When a society is wrong about something, the only way to get people to change their minds en masse is to make them uncomfortable. That puts a lot of heat back onto the activists. Ordinary people are vaguely offended or even hugely insulted when some activist comes up to them and says, "Hey, the way you're doing things...that's wrong. You need to reconsider your behavior."

 

Understandably, most people would feel threatened by that kind of a confrontation. Nevertheless, it's a necessary part of life. Humanity is far from perfect. We still need activists. Complacent people have to have some trigger to kick them out of their complacency. It's never comfortable, and it sucks, but that's the way it has to be. I had hoped this thread would not take the direction that it did, but I am not surprised.

 

Okay, so, that's that. I will limit my participation in this topic going forward. There's some stuff I would love to reply to, but the WoT discussion board just isn't the place for it.

 

Three last things:

 

First, somebody asked me why I call Mierin "Mierin" instead of "Lanfear." I call her that because it's too silly to write "Mierin / Lanfear / Cyndane" every time, and right now her storyline is pretty confused. Rand calls her "Mierin," so I do too.

 

Second, somebody called my posts here "preachy." I don't make many posts here on Dragonmount. Most of them are short, and none are preachy. That person must have been talking about the thread where I offered my interpretation of Mierin as a decent character forced into tragedy. That person must have confused "spirited and lengthy" for "preachy." =)

 

Lastly, on the subject of rape where the victim is a male. A couple of people in the thread don't believe that this is a serious social problem. Anyone with an honest curiosity can google this for themselves. Male victim rape statistics are hard to come by because rape is one of the most underreported crimes, and rape where the victim is a male is even more underreported. But there are statistics, and anyone who wants to know can look it up. It's a particularly bad problem in any place where males are largely segregated, including prisons and the military, but to a lesser extent it's also a problem in society at large. This is because rape, first and foremost, is a tool for dominating another person--not a tool for sexual gratification.

 

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/210346.pdf

 

This report found that almost 3 million males in the United States have been raped in their lifetimes, at a rate of about 93,000 a year. That's more people than die in auto wrecks. That's over a third of the number of prostate cancer cases that get diagnosed each year. Any way you slice it, it's a big number. A lot of "macho" types don't want to acknowledge that males are vulnerable to sexual assault, but that very same attitude makes it almost impossible for male assault victims to find the social support that will help them recover psychologically.

 

Those who don't trust the statistics can look up other research studies.

[Kal11]

First, somebody asked me why I call Mierin "Mierin" instead of "Lanfear." I call her that because it's too silly to write "Mierin / Lanfear / Cyndane" every time, and right now her storyline is pretty confused. Rand calls her "Mierin," so I do too.

 

It would be silly to type that every time, and totally pointless as everyone would know who you are talking about by typing just one name. You gave a lecture on how we pigeonhole women into the roles and perceptions we want instead of allowing women the freedom to be who they are or want to be. Well the character in question chose to be called Lanfear and did countless evil and cruel things to be among the top dogs of the evil hierarchy. Instead you make a point of calling her by the name you find preferable and make implausible stretches of logic to fit her actions and motivations into your paradigm. If you are going to be critical of a work of fiction and it's characters on the basis of sexism you should take a look in the mirror first.

 

Btw, Rand calls her Mierin because that was the woman he knew intimately. Nobody else calls her that name and only does so a handful of times, there is no reason for a reader to fall into that habit. You call her Mierin because Lanfear doesn't fit with your card house you have built. That is one of the lamest excuses I have ever heard trying to ignore a point.

 

Second, somebody called my posts here "preachy." I don't make many posts here on Dragonmount. Most of them are short, and none are preachy. That person must have been talking about the thread where I offered my interpretation of Mierin as a decent character forced into tragedy. That person must have confused "spirited and lengthy" for "preachy." =)

 

I was referring to anytime you post on this topic at all, try reading every post you have made in this thread for starters. You talk condescendingly and insultingly about anyone who disagrees with your point of view (yet prattle upon about the evils of bigotry ). I am guessing you were among the "feminists" that say they are all about a woman being who she chooses but then slammed Sarah Palin mercilessly and often unfairly or with flat out lies (I am not a Palin supporter at all for the record, but I do believe she was and is treated very unfairly). The blinders to your own behavior are on with full tint.

 

You have no place to be passing judgment and dictating to others how they should act or believe. Plenty of women like being wives and deferring to their husband, many like being independent, many like being treated like a piece of meat or sexual objects. What constitutes sexism or sexist behavior is a matter of personal opinions and values. Nobody needs you to save the world, especially not in America where someone is free to live in an area that conforms to their views. If you really wanted to help women in need go to the Middle East or Africa where they really are treated like trash and property in many places (I have seen it firsthand and it is disgusting) . Not shoving your agenda and browbeating any American that doesn't agree with your extreme and contradictory view of the world.

 

"Activists" (hate to break it to you but women are equals in this country and have been for some time) like yourself are vultures that prey on those too young or naive to have formed an opinion yet, often with lies or just bad information, or bully those that don't have the conviction or spine to stand up for themselves. You can use it as an excuse for your behavior, that you are "stepping on toes" to kick people out of complacency, but it is not your place to do so and is obnoxious.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

Btw, Rand calls her Mierin because that was the woman he knew intimately. Nobody else calls her that name and only does so a handful of times, there is no reason for a reader to fall into that habit. You call her Mierin because Lanfear doesn't fit with your card house you have built. That is one of the lamest excuses I have ever heard trying to ignore a point.

 

I get the feeling you're trying to make this personal. That's an awfully silly criticism to raise.

[Suttree]

You have no place to be passing judgment and dictating to others how they should act or believe. Plenty of women like being wives and deferring to their husband,

 

No place passing judgment? That is somewhat ironic given the context.

 

As for the bolded part...where do I even start? How does a woman being married equate to deferring to her husband?

 

many like being treated like a piece of meat or sexual objects. What constitutes sexism or sexist behavior is a matter of personal opinions and values.

 

Spoken like someone who truly seems to have zero understanding of women and their roles in modern society. Funny how despite efforts to the contrary an individuals true colors shine right through in some posts...