Female characterization in tWoT

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i believe i've read that pratchett was among his favorite authors, but i am sleepy and cannot search.

 

i think he was talking about an older book though

[Terez]

They were, but I'm not sure they were friends back that far. They were friends by 2001 at the latest, when they did a gig together at ElfFantasyFaire in the Netherlands.

[sandoz12]

One of the things I found frustrating with the WoT was the lack of Male-Female friendships (where they are not in a relationship either sexual or warder type). I mean there was Mat and Birgitte and that's about all I can think of. Co-related to this is how throughout the series both men and women see each other as separate species completely alien to each other. I love the WoT but this has always been one of the things that has most annoyed me about it.

 

It is one thing I think has improved in the last couple of books is that we are starting to see some male-female friendships (eg. Rand-Nynaeve, Mat-Setalle) develop.

[Terez]

Yeah, Mat even thought about how amazing it was that he could sit with his leg touching Birgitte and not once think about feeling her up.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

One of the things I found frustrating with the WoT was the lack of Male-Female friendships (where they are not in a relationship either sexual or warder type). I mean there was Mat and Birgitte and that's about all I can think of. Co-related to this is how throughout the series both men and women see each other as separate species completely alien to each other. I love the WoT but this has always been one of the things that has most annoyed me about it.

 

It is one thing I think has improved in the last couple of books is that we are starting to see some male-female friendships (eg. Rand-Nynaeve, Mat-Setalle) develop.

 

That's a really good point. Now that you mention it, I think this was one of those "missing elements" whose absence detracted from my enjoyment of the series.

[Mr Ares]

It might be a pretty powerful statement about gender' date=' but it's not one RJ is making - he's only making a point on how to use magic. You surrender to saidar, and guide it. You force saidin to do what you want - this is true regardless of whether you're a man or a woman (for example Aran'gar, a woman, uses saidin in the male way). In terms of people, RJ isn't saying men should try to boss women around all the time and women should surrender to men in order to guide them. In fact, the advice Abell Cauthon gives to Perrin about dealing with women, which basically amounts to picking your battles, involves men letting women have their own way most of the time. And Perrin notes this is rather similar to the advice Marin al'Vere gives Faile (so men and women aren't that different, and can be dealt with in the same way). And Rand doesn't have a huge amount of success trying to dominate all the time.[/quote']

 

It's not just a point about how to use magic, because magic is gendered, men wield saidin, women wield saidar. Within the WoT, most cultures are dominated or controlled by women. At the very least, the Women's Circle, or it's equivalent in other cultures, like the Wise Ones, has just as much authority and power as the Village Council and its equivalents. Some of the oldest and most stable realms in Randland are led by women, Andor and Tar Valon come to mind. However, what authority and control these ruling groups of women do exercise is not often in the form of overt domination, but subtle emotional manipulation, with the exception, perhaps, of Andor. Even when women are overtly in charge, they don't often just say what they want and expect it to be done, rather, they insult, flatter, goad or sexually manipulate men into doing what they want. In a sense, in those places where women are in charge, they rule their people in the same way they wield saidar; they surrender to the attitudes and inclinations of those they rule by accepting them, and in doing so, are able to guide them through emotional manipulation to the ends they desire.

I disagree. I'd say in most places where women are in control, they are often so by bossing people around. I'd wouldn't call Sorilea the model for "subtle emotional manipulation", for example. The model for "jump when I say toad. Toad." most certainly, but that sounds rather like domination rather than guiding. Some countries are ruled quite openly by queens, such as Andor and Saldaea (or the Seanchan Empire, for that matter), and I can't say I've noticed a particular tendency for these queens to prefer to exert their power by guiding their subjects, so much as just telling them what to do, and even lower down the social scale women are still quite capable of using force of will to dominate their spouses (Setalle Anan, for example). Where people - men and women - are forced to guide it is usually as a result of not having the power to force. AS advisors, for example, are merely advisors and so cannot rule overtly. This would still be true if they were men - it is their role, not their gender, which makes guiding the optimal choice. The magic might be gendered, but it doesn't follow that the correct way for a given sex to use magic is automatically the best way for that sex to behave in all areas of life.

 

And the Dark One's turning of Arangar from male to female actually supports my point. The progressive thing that RJ was doing here was making the point that gender doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with sex. Arangar remains a man, even when he's in a female body. You can see this most explicitly in the early scenes with the newly restored Arangar. He bristles at the change, and still thinks of himself as a man. It's also explicit in that he still wields saidin, not saidar. He doesn't become a woman because he's in a female body, being a woman is about your gender, not your sex. This appears to me to be RJ saying that gender trumps sex. This is a perversion for Western readers because it challenges the notion that one can tell a person's gender by being aware of their sex. We like our men to be male, and our women to be female. It helps that Arangar is a Forsaken, and it also helps that as Arangar spends more time in his female body, he develops appetites and inclinations that we more readily recognize as feminine. But this says something about the kinds of attitudes regarding sex and gender that RJ expects us to have.

I disagree that it supports your point. As you say, Aran'gar is initially a man in a woman's body, but over time increasingly becomes a woman in a woman's body. Yet no matter how feminine she becomes, she still uses saidin in the same way. The gender adapts to the sex, except for the side of the Power used. And let us not forget that Rand has used saidar - and to do so he needed to surrender, to guide. Exactly as any woman would. (Clearly With the Choedan Kal is Rand getting in touch with his feminine side.)

 

And my take on the advice that Abel Cauthon gives is that men should accept women's attempts to guide them, while the advice that Merin al'Vere gives is that women should accept men's attempts to dominate and control the situation. It also represents to me the fact that men and women don't really understand each other very well, that they tend to think they're different when they're more alike, and tend to think they're alike when they couldn't be more different, so they should just stay out of each other's way for the most part. Rand's failures when he attempts to more rigidly dominate and control affairs don't appear to me to be a general statement about the appropriateness of masculine domination, but a consequence of his unique circumstances and the unique problems he faces as the Dragon Reborn.

The advice given was that men should not, for the most part, attempt to dominate. That they should only take charge when it's important. Marin says the same thing in different words. It was not advice on the methods that should be used to exert power, only that when not important the other should be given free reign, let think they are in charge, but when it was important you should take over. It only supports your point if you already accept that the only way for women to exert power is guiding, and the only way for men is domination. If you don't accept that, then it is simply a matter of men and women using the same tools to exert power. "Letting them have their way when it isn't important makes it easier to check them when it is." Is that advice for a man or a woman? Does that tell you to guide or force? After all, you could guide them when it is important, or force them when it is. Either method of control can be used, and by either sex - there are times when one is best and times when one should use the other. The correct way to work out which one to use does not involve checking the contents of your underwear.

[Guest PiotrekS]

RJ said somewhere (don't remember the link, sorry) that he got a lot of inspiration for WoT after reading a book about a woman who wanted to become a magic user, but only men were allowed to wield arcane force. He thought that that was an interesting premise, and decided to use it in his story, but with sexes reversed. Hence a gender-divided magic system, the taint on Saidin and the cleansing of the taint, creating a world in which men are fighting for their equality.

 

That book sounds a lot like Equal Rights, by Terry Pratchet, but I find it hard to believe Discworld inspired RJ to write the WoT magic system the way he did. lol Maybe there's another book with a similar plot.

 

The title was "Equal Rites"

 

Maybe it was only the idea of women performing "high magic", as opposed to "low, witch-magic", usually associated with women in epic fantasy (Earthsea by Ursula Le Guin comes to mind). That was the case in "Equal Rites".

[Terez]

I disagree that it supports your point. As you say, Aran'gar is initially a man in a woman's body, but over time increasingly becomes a woman in a woman's body. Yet no matter how feminine she becomes, she still uses saidin in the same way. The gender adapts to the sex, except for the side of the Power used.

Aran'gar herself noted in reference to her sexual preferences that they had not changed, precisely, but rather broadened. I got the impression from that that she was still a man at heart, but had nevertheless adapted to being a woman.

[Zhipp]

RJ said somewhere (don't remember the link, sorry) that he got a lot of inspiration for WoT after reading a book about a woman who wanted to become a magic user, but only men were allowed to wield arcane force. He thought that that was an interesting premise, and decided to use it in his story, but with sexes reversed. Hence a gender-divided magic system, the taint on Saidin and the cleansing of the taint, creating a world in which men are fighting for their equality.

 

That book sounds a lot like Equal Rights, by Terry Pratchet, but I find it hard to believe Discworld inspired RJ to write the WoT magic system the way he did. lol Maybe there's another book with a similar plot.

 

The title was "Equal Rites"

 

Maybe it was only the idea of women performing "high magic", as opposed to "low, witch-magic", usually associated with women in epic fantasy (Earthsea by Ursula Le Guin comes to mind). That was the case in "Equal Rites".

Ah, right. Equal Rites. heh, can't believe I messed that up.

[Terez]

I like it. We should apply that to the nudity rituals. But somehow I don't think we could get Brandon to go there. Maybe a sweat tent? But still, it's not the same without descriptions like 'Aviendha squatted sweatily', etc. Or somebody has to be checking out a man's derriere. It's only fair.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Why not? Maybe a female fan could give Brandon a hand with such scenes

 

And as an aside, I enthusiastically recommend Pratchett if you haven't yet read his books - he's a great writer, very intelligent and very funny.

[Massive]

I think Hurin enjoys looking at the male derrieres. He's a 'sniffer'.

[Xhojin]

 

That's a particularly emotionally repulsive example, and it seems that many people who have never studied sex issues only recognize sexism in its most extreme forms. However, you're looking at the tiny tip of a very tall iceberg.

 

or perhaps people that "study" sex issues have a tendency to see some things that are not really there. And before you freak out, realize that this is not a denial that sexism exists but a understanding that people can create issues out of nothing due to their own perceptions and issues. Some things that are called sexist are sexist and some are merely people deluding themselves because of their own history and perceptions.

 

 

 

 

Declaring "reality" in such a manner is not the pastime of an intellectual. Gender is a social construct, purely and wholly. Not only is that a logical given, but it is demonstrably true in the world of fact. Gender derives from the anthropomorphization of institutional gender roles, which in turn derive from sociocultural values stemming from the sexual segregation of past societies, which derived from the sexual division of labor in our transition into civilization, which derived from the sexual dimorphism of our animal ancestors, which was the completely arbitrary result of our evolutionary path of development.

 

There is no physical entity of "man" and "woman." In the world of anatomy, there are males, there are females, and there are the intersexed. The true differences between the sexes revolve almost entirely around reproductive issues. Outside that domain, they are almost totally irrelevant to the modern notion of human identity. Art, science, engineering, business, philosophy, and recreation all transcend our animal prerogatives and invite participation by both sexes equally. Only when it comes to selecting sexual partners, conceiving children, and extreme athletics is sex physically relevant as a category for the discrimination of individuals. Everything else is inherently sex-neutral.

 

Then gender comes along and asserts (usually on the claim of divine authority) how a person should behave on the basis of their sex. Suddenly we're talking about things like the color pink and homemaking, which have nothing to do with biological sex. Yet because of its entrenchment in our social consciousness, many people believe that gender reveals something about the nature of all individuals of a given sex. I scratch my head at their foolishness, because this faulty perception is in blatant contradiction the numerous examples of people who do not fit gender norms. I cannot tell you how many people I have met whose lives had been diminished because they were pushed into a gender which does not accommodate their individual personality.

 

not true. There are ample differences between men and women besides reproductive issues. And these differences are not irrelevant to the modern notion of human identity. They are also not all derived from sociocultural values.

 

some examples: size, shape, muscular power and endurance. brain chemistry (and yes there are measurable differences in the brain chemistry and brain waves of men and women). Hormone levels. All of these things influence us as much as our society does. Our brain chemistry and hormones influence (or even control) our instincts and drives. These instances and drives (nuture, aggression, etc) influence how we see and approach art, philosophy business etc.

 

Women do not have, on average, a higher tendency to nurture then men do because of our society. It is quite literally hardwired into their brain. Ditto with men and aggression.

 

Again: note that I am not saying there are not exceptions to the norm. there are. But those exceptions do not disprove the rule that there are legitimate differences between the sexes. To pretend there are not; to pretend that all differences between genders are only created by society is completely ignorant and flies in the face of scientific fact. Of course people are able and should be allowed to "rise above" their biological influences. But that doesn't mean that those influences do not exist.

 

Yes Forcing someone into a role based on their gender is sexist. Understanding (and writing about it)that on average people of certain genders are drawn to certain roles is not sexist. From your writing you seen to lack understanding of this distinction.

 

 

 

Robert Jordan was wedded to the idea of gender. He, like most people who lived before him (and most since), believed in the idea of gender. That is why his male characters are so overwhelmingly masculine and his female characters are so overwhelmingly feminine--both in narratorial description and in in-world roles and attitudes. Ultimately, his inability to escape that faulty worldview is why history will judge WoT as a transitional work when it comes to sexual equality issues. Though he did open up the social sphere to female participation, he could not allow females (or males) to exist free from the perspective of gender.

 

Was he wedded to the idea of gender? or did he choose to write characters that mirrored attitudes in the real world so the setting of this story was easy to relate to for readers? Did he write masculine males and feminine females because...GASP... males are on average more masculine and females are on average more feminine?

 

Your argument seems to be: Jordon did make all his characters executions to the norm so he is sexist. That is a ridiculous argument.

 

 

What a spin! RJ created the distinction in how the sexes use the Power differently not to illustrate what was hard for them, but to reflect what he thought is the core of masculine and feminine identity. Using the Power is both challenging yet also rewarding and satisfying. By reinforcing the notion that to use magic successfully, females must submit and males must dominate, RJ was clearly defining his normative beliefs as to the most proper behavior for individuals. This distinction in the use of the Power illustrates the limits of his progressivism, a boundary which, like the River Jordan for Moses, Robert Jordan was not able or willing to cross. You see the same thing when it comes to Circles, which, except for two special configurations, always requires both more females participating than males, and a male leading. RJ had his views about which sex should be on top; there's no use denying it.

 

 

Or... the submit/accept to Saidar and Fight with Saidin is a play on the nurture vs aggression impulses that are hardwired into the human brain.

 

Again see what I wrote to your first quote about "intellectuals" that "study" sexism seeing things that not necessarily there. Your interpretation of the saidar sadian control thing is wholly without evidence or proof and thus as you so elegantly verbalize in the next thing I will quote you on, completely arbitrary and therefore essentially meaningless.

 

 

You are not using the language properly, but it prevents you from understanding your error. Yes, there are physical distinctions between the sexes, and these are well enough immutable until we get on with genetic engineering. Social distinctions between the sexes, meanwhile--that which we call gender--is completely arbitrary and therefore essentially meaningless.

 

You are not using the language properly. Gender is not solely used to describe social distinctions between sexes. And the hormonal, instinctual, and chemical differences between genders is not arbitrary or meaningless.

It is folly to assume that sex is a particularly significant identifier of distinction between individuals. There are 23 chromosome pairs in the human genome. All of them contribute to the diversity of our species. Do you really believe that one half of one chromosome pair is more significant a determiner of human nature than the other half of that pair along with the other 22 pairs?

 

Actually since our sex, and thus that little chromosome, has a scientifically measurable effect on our brain chemistry, endocrine system, and other biological functions it is anything but folly to assume that is is a significant identifier between individuals.

 

It is not the ONLY identifier and it doesn't supersede all others but yes it is real and it IS folly to ignore that fact. Sorry to break the bad news to you.

[Xhojin]

We'll never make progress against sexism just by frowning upon a few of its worst manifestations. What we really need to change is people's underlying notion that the sexes need to be regarded and treated differently. They don't, and shouldn't.

 

 

Yes. we do need to change peoples underlying notion that sexes NEED to be regarded and treated differently. However that doesn't' mean we have to stick our heads in the sand and deny that there are biological and physiological differences in the average man and woman.

 

Sexist people fight for the notion that we NEED to treat each different.

 

You are fighting for the notion that we all NEED to deny that any differences exist. and that writting anything that follows social normals means the author is sexist.

 

Both are flawed stances to take.

[MauricXe]

I've always thought the separation of the power was a good starting point for "we must work together and be as equals". It has been said many times that the AoL produced some of the greatest inventions because men and women worked together. Aside from the social aspect, the Wheel of Time turns because both the male and female halves turn it. To me, this symbolizes that men and women are both equal.

[Xhojin]

I like it. We should apply that to the nudity rituals. But somehow I don't think we could get Brandon to go there. Maybe a sweat tent? But still, it's not the same without descriptions like 'Aviendha squatted sweatily', etc. Or somebody has to be checking out a man's derriere. It's only fair.

 

 

I may be wrong but I am sure there were examples of naked men in the Aiel sweat tents.

 

And Bridgette does indeed check out men's derrieres.

[Terez]

I like it. We should apply that to the nudity rituals. But somehow I don't think we could get Brandon to go there. Maybe a sweat tent? But still, it's not the same without descriptions like 'Aviendha squatted sweatily', etc. Or somebody has to be checking out a man's derriere. It's only fair.

I may be wrong but I am sure there were examples of naked men in the Aiel sweat tents.

Never on screen, and certainly not with anything resembling the detailed if relatively non-graphic description that RJ put into the female nudity. Women talk about seeing men in sweat tents, and Egwene thinks of having been embarrassed once by Rhuarc.

 

And Bridgette does indeed check out men's derrieres.

She is a bit of an exception, and she's not a particularly good once since her devotion to Gaidal presumably keeps her chaste. There is no real parallel to Mat among the main female characters - even lower-tier women like Berelain and Morgase have only had a few lovers each. Tylin is the closest thing, and she is essentially a rapist. The Greens are the next closest thing, and the most prominent of them - Myrelle - is also essentially a rapist. Some would argue that, but it's pretty clear she had to use the bond to compel Lan to have sex with her.

[Xhojin]

I like it. We should apply that to the nudity rituals. But somehow I don't think we could get Brandon to go there. Maybe a sweat tent? But still, it's not the same without descriptions like 'Aviendha squatted sweatily', etc. Or somebody has to be checking out a man's derriere. It's only fair.

I may be wrong but I am sure there were examples of naked men in the Aiel sweat tents.

Never on screen, and certainly not with anything resembling the detailed if relatively non-graphic description that RJ put into the female nudity. Women talk about seeing men in sweat tents, and Egwene thinks of having been embarrassed once by Rhuarc.

 

And Bridgette does indeed check out men's derrieres.

She is a bit of an exception, and she's not a particularly good once since her devotion to Gaidal presumably keeps her chaste. There is no real parallel to Mat among the main female characters - even lower-tier women like Berelain and Morgase have only had a few lovers each. Tylin is the closest thing, and she is essentially a rapist. The Greens are the next closest thing, and the most prominent of them - Myrelle - is also essentially a rapist. Some would argue that, but it's pretty clear she had to use the bond to compel Lan to have sex with her.

 

There is certainly male nudity on screen in sweat tents in FOH. Egwene is all embarrassed because there are naked men the in tents. Does RJ go into detail describing they genitalia? no of course not but he doesn't describe the women in that detail either.

 

You brought up Tylin (and by proxy mat). Mat is naked in the series as well. Specifically with Tylin.

 

Also, by writing off Bridgette checking out men because her devotion to Gaidal presumably keeps her chaste you are adding extra criteria that was not relevant to the argument. The person I responded to wasn't asking if there were female parallels to Mat. They were complaining that the series was sexist because there were not female characters that checked out guys asses. Bridgette proves there are women characters that check out guys and derrieres. Min is another. She checks out Rands ass on occasion.

 

 

However, you bringing up Tylin and Myrelle is interesting. One of that complaints about sexism is because the DO essentially rapes female Forsaken to punish them. You just pointed out that there is a female to male rape equivalent in the series.

[Sid]

There's always Alaine, Belavaere, and Breane in TGH. Not major characters, but still.

[Terez]

There is certainly male nudity on screen in sweat tents in FOH. Egwene is all embarrassed because there are naked men the in tents.

I mentioned that. It's more or less off-screen since it's just in Egwene's thoughts.

 

Does RJ go into detail describing they genitalia? no of course not but he doesn't describe the women in that detail either.

Nice straw man, but I didn't say anything about genitalia.

 

Also, by writing off Bridgette checking out men because her devotion to Gaidal presumably keeps her chaste you are adding extra criteria that was not relevant to the argument.

It's extremely relevant to the argument in general - that is, the topic of this thread.

 

Bridgette proves there are women characters that check out guys and derrieres.

Not when they're naked.

 

Min is another. She checks out Rands ass on occasion.

She's his girlfriend.

 

 

However, you bringing up Tylin and Myrelle is interesting. One of that complaints about sexism is because the DO essentially rapes female Forsaken to punish them. You just pointed out that there is a female to male rape equivalent in the series.

Way to miss the point.

[Puny]

I dk... I´m somewhat ambivilent on this topic. One on hand I don´t care. Jordan was a straigh guy, of course he is gonna describe women more, be they halfnaked or not. If I wrote an epic series I´d throw in a bunch of hot guys, lots of nudity and even male male love =O I guess people would complain about the lack of lesbians.

 

On the other hand why do you see women being halfnaked, but no guys. I´m at LoC where Egwene just has been raised as Amyrlin and I understand why they expose their breasts, (to prove they are women, which has a parallel irl with the papacy and that the cardinals need to check that all are men) but when that was done I just wanted to say to Egwene, Lift your blouse up!

 

And the rape punishment... I dk if that is the worst punishment the DO could come up with but I´m sure it´s more of a way to humiliate and degrade them then that being the most painful punishment. But then the male Forsaken should be punished like that also. The hand of Dark One being straight is...meh. He could atleast have been bi.

Or RJ is making a point that rape is more humiliating and painful for women which I find to be wrong.

 

But Jordan was a product of his time, beliefs and values. We shouldn´t be too hard on him, lol.

[Guest PiotrekS]

She is a bit of an exception, and she's not a particularly good once since her devotion to Gaidal presumably keeps her chaste. There is no real parallel to Mat among the main female characters - even lower-tier women like Berelain and Morgase have only had a few lovers each. Tylin is the closest thing, and she is essentially a rapist. The Greens are the next closest thing, and the most prominent of them - Myrelle - is also essentially a rapist. Some would argue that, but it's pretty clear she had to use the bond to compel Lan to have sex with her.

 

Myrelle had to use the bond to compel Lan to have sex with her? Wow, never thought about that...

 

Is it pretty clear? I don't think we have any evidence about it and it seems more likely that Lan was feeling so lost at the moment that he could have done it without any external compulsion. And it seems unlikely that he or Nynaeve would forgive her for that. And Myrelle is hot and he was her warder for a moment.

 

And, as Virginia said in the podcast, it was a part of a healing process

[FarShainMael]

We'll never make progress against sexism just by frowning upon a few of its worst manifestations. What we really need to change is people's underlying notion that the sexes need to be regarded and treated differently. They don't, and shouldn't.

 

 

Yes. we do need to change peoples underlying notion that sexes NEED to be regarded and treated differently. However that doesn't' mean we have to stick our heads in the sand and deny that there are biological and physiological differences in the average man and woman.

 

Sexist people fight for the notion that we NEED to treat each different.

 

You are fighting for the notion that we all NEED to deny that any differences exist. and that writting anything that follows social normals means the author is sexist.

 

Both are flawed stances to take.

 

This.

 

In triplicate. And Capitals. And bright red sparklies. Underlined. Three times.

[FarShainMael]

 

 

A typical female. And it's been driving men nuts for centuries, trying to figure out why is she smiling like that?

 

Because she is a man.

 

Or because the two halves of the face are two different expressions assembled together. The background of the pisture (at least above the shoulders) is likewise discontinuous and I can't believe it's accidental. (But then I must confess to having all the artistic appreciation of a gnat.)

[FarShainMael]

Half of the "One Power," the supreme controlling force of the universe, is forever off-limits to half the human population.

 

Not entirely true - consider circles which include both sexes; each sex can then perceive the complementary half of the power directly. Their comments on it are illuminating. A woman calls saidin 'raging chaos' and Rand, linked with Nynaeve at the cleansing says of saidar 'it's so different'.

 

(Yes, I chose the word 'complementary' quite deliberately.)

 

And I doubt whether it's even relevant. Is there anything a man can do with saidin that a woman can't do with saidar? Yes, men tend to be stronger in Earth and Fire (but Egwene can sense metals and make cuendillar) and women tend to be stronger in Water, Air, and Spirit; but these are generalisations.

 

@PiotrekS re Pterry: Yes indeed!!