Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Taim is under control


Recommended Posts

Well after reading most of the debates on the website on who Taim is I have come up with the theory that Taim is only Taim but he is under Moridin's control due to the use of a broken cour'souvra or mind trap. In my mind it explains the mannerisms (hand held behind back, half smile etc.), the colors, and the "so-called" Aiel statement. The mind trap has been around since aCoS and has yet to be used. After Taim escaped he was taken to SG and forcibly mind-trapped. It is a leap, granted, but in my mind it makes the more sense then someone being locked in a stasis box or a new Chosen being raised.

 

The problem I'm having is that we have no idea how the owner of the mind trap is affected. Being that Moridin owns two cour'souvra my thought is that he can control the person without loosing himself. But perhaps it is something like what Graendal did when she hopped into the mind of the bird in ToM. We just don't have enough information to support either idea.

 

As to why this was done: it gives the shadow a person who can build an army of channelers right under Rand's nose. Note that Taim appeared on-screen very soon after Rand issued his amnesty. Another thing that has bugged me is why Taim was headed towards Andor in the first place. He was in Andor before Rand proclaimed his amnesty, so he didn't travel to Andor for that reason. Unless of course he intended to offer his support to Rand and the amnesty provided an easy way to do that.

 

Edited for spelling and to add that Moridin has broken Taim's mindtrap and is complete control of Taim.

Edited by Kiriath Til Asdod
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well after reading most of the debates on the website on who Taim is I have come up with the theory that Taim is only Taim but he is under Moridin's control due to the use of a cour'souvra or mind trap. In my mind it explains the mannerisms (hand held behind back, half smile etc.), the colors, and the "so-called" Aiel statement. The mind trap has been around since aCoS and has yet to be used. After Taim escaped he was taken to SG and forcibly mind-trapped. It is a leap, granted, but in my mind it makes the more sense then someone being locked in a stasis box or a new Chosen being raised.

 

The problem I'm having is that we have no idea how the owner of the mind trap is affected. Being that Moridin owns two cour'souvra my thought is that he can control the person without loosing himself. But perhaps it is something like what Graendal did when she hopped into the mind of the bird in ToM. We just don't have enough information to support either idea.

 

As to why this was done: it gives the shadow a person who can build an army of channelers right under Rand's nose. Note that Taim appeared on-screen very soon after Rand issued his amnesty. Another thing that has bugged me is why Taim was headed towards Andor in the first place. He was in Andor before Rand proclaimed his amnesty, so he didn't travel to Andor for that reason. Unless of course he intended to offer his support to Rand and the amnesty provided an easy way to do that.

 

 

The cour'souvra doesn't seem to have affected Lanfear's or Moghedian's minds though, so I think it's more likely that he as been 13 x 13'd

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well after reading most of the debates on the website on who Taim is I have come up with the theory that Taim is only Taim but he is under Moridin's control due to the use of a cour'souvra or mind trap. In my mind it explains the mannerisms (hand held behind back, half smile etc.), the colors, and the "so-called" Aiel statement. The mind trap has been around since aCoS and has yet to be used. After Taim escaped he was taken to SG and forcibly mind-trapped. It is a leap, granted, but in my mind it makes the more sense then someone being locked in a stasis box or a new Chosen being raised.

 

The problem I'm having is that we have no idea how the owner of the mind trap is affected. Being that Moridin owns two cour'souvra my thought is that he can control the person without loosing himself. But perhaps it is something like what Graendal did when she hopped into the mind of the bird in ToM. We just don't have enough information to support either idea.

 

As to why this was done: it gives the shadow a person who can build an army of channelers right under Rand's nose. Note that Taim appeared on-screen very soon after Rand issued his amnesty. Another thing that has bugged me is why Taim was headed towards Andor in the first place. He was in Andor before Rand proclaimed his amnesty, so he didn't travel to Andor for that reason. Unless of course he intended to offer his support to Rand and the amnesty provided an easy way to do that.

simply mindtrapping someone doesn't give the person controlling the mindtrap direct control over the actions of the mindtrapped person. that only happens after the mindtrap is broken. are you saying that this already happened and Moridin now "remotely operates" Taim like a robot?

Edited by herid
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes Moridin (possibly Demi) has broken the mind-trap and now is in complete control of Taim. Sorry I should have been more clear on that.

we haven't seen any characters with broken mindtraps but remote operating Taim like that would likely be a full time 24/7 job. We see Moridin at various points when he is otherwise engaged and isn't even thinking of Taim. What's happening to Taim during those times? Is he switched off?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well after reading most of the debates on the website on who Taim is I have come up with the theory that Taim is only Taim but he is under Moridin's control due to the use of a cour'souvra or mind trap. In my mind it explains the mannerisms (hand held behind back, half smile etc.), the colors, and the "so-called" Aiel statement. The mind trap has been around since aCoS and has yet to be used. After Taim escaped he was taken to SG and forcibly mind-trapped. It is a leap, granted, but in my mind it makes the more sense then someone being locked in a stasis box or a new Chosen being raised.

 

The problem I'm having is that we have no idea how the owner of the mind trap is affected. Being that Moridin owns two cour'souvra my thought is that he can control the person without loosing himself. But perhaps it is something like what Graendal did when she hopped into the mind of the bird in ToM. We just don't have enough information to support either idea.

 

As to why this was done: it gives the shadow a person who can build an army of channelers right under Rand's nose. Note that Taim appeared on-screen very soon after Rand issued his amnesty. Another thing that has bugged me is why Taim was headed towards Andor in the first place. He was in Andor before Rand proclaimed his amnesty, so he didn't travel to Andor for that reason. Unless of course he intended to offer his support to Rand and the amnesty provided an easy way to do that.

 

 

The cour'souvra doesn't seem to have affected Lanfear's or Moghedian's minds though, so I think it's more likely that he as been 13 x 13'd

 

Hi, thats because theirs haven't been 'set off' or broken - they obey, as themselves, under threat of losing themselves.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes Moridin (possibly Demi) has broken the mind-trap and now is in complete control of Taim. Sorry I should have been more clear on that.

we haven't seen any characters with broken mindtraps but remote operating Taim like that would likely be a full time 24/7 job. We see Moridin at various points when he is otherwise engaged and isn't even thinking of Taim. What's happening to Taim during those times? Is he switched off?

 

I cant see the value of a mindtrap if this is the case, you are essentially trading one person for another. I'm thinking that it is a more passive process most of the time, but when Moridin wants to he can take control of Taim. Perhaps it functions like a seanchan collar in a lot of ways. We just don't have enough info to say either way which is likely.

Edited by Kiriath Til Asdod
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes Moridin (possibly Demi) has broken the mind-trap and now is in complete control of Taim. Sorry I should have been more clear on that.

we haven't seen any characters with broken mindtraps but remote operating Taim like that would likely be a full time 24/7 job. We see Moridin at various points when he is otherwise engaged and isn't even thinking of Taim. What's happening to Taim during those times? Is he switched off?

 

I cant see the value of a mindtrap if this is the case, you are essentially trading one person for another. I'm thinking that it is a more passive process most of the time, but when Moridin wants to he can take control of Taim. Perhaps it functions like a seanchan collar in a lot of ways. We just don't have enough info to say either way which is likely.

 

The value of a mindtrap is to do exactly what Moridin is doing with Lanfer/Moghedien. After you break it, you lose all of the value.

 

Also - the book is filled with enough foreshadowing that if Taim had been mindtrapped there would have been a reference or hint somewhere of another mindtrap being spotted around someone's neck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes Moridin (possibly Demi) has broken the mind-trap and now is in complete control of Taim. Sorry I should have been more clear on that.

we haven't seen any characters with broken mindtraps but remote operating Taim like that would likely be a full time 24/7 job. We see Moridin at various points when he is otherwise engaged and isn't even thinking of Taim. What's happening to Taim during those times? Is he switched off?

 

I cant see the value of a mindtrap if this is the case, you are essentially trading one person for another. I'm thinking that it is a more passive process most of the time, but when Moridin wants to he can take control of Taim. Perhaps it functions like a seanchan collar in a lot of ways. We just don't have enough info to say either way which is likely.

The value of a mindtrap would mostly be a threat that it can be broken, rather than the breaking itself. that's how Moridin is handling Moggy and Cyndane. If he was remote controlling Taim but was letting Taim operate on his own some of the time there'd be marked changes in behavior and personality. Nothing of the sort happens to Taim. He is supremely self confident and arrogant at all times. He calls himslef "the leader" and rules the BT as his private playground. He even got himself a throne for crying out loud. He behaves nothing at all like a man on a leash which has been relaxed for a while. Compare him with Moggy for example. And her mindtrap isn't even broken.

Edited by herid
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why would anyone wear a broken mind-trap? That makes no sense at all. Taim has many of the same mannerisms as Moridin again pointing to the hand behind the back thing, the colors, and the so-called Aiel statement. We haven't seen a cour'souvra broken so it is tough to say how it affects anyone, but if it useful only until broken then it is a fairly weak contraption. If I as Moridin have to spend 24/7 controlling you after I break your mindtrap, then I dam well wouldn't be wearing one around my neck where a fall would end my own self control. And giving two to the same person would be completely pointless. Moridin may keep Cyndane and Moggy in line with unbroken cour'souvra but that doesn't mean they are useless when broken.

 

He is supremely self confident and arrogant at all times. He calls himslef "the leader" and rules the BT as his private playground. He even got himself a throne for crying out loud. He behaves nothing at all like a man on a leash which has been relaxed for a while.

 

Yeap that sounds exactly like Moridin to me, he isn't on a leash anymore.

Edited by Kiriath Til Asdod
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why would anyone wear a broken mind-trap? That makes no sense at all. Taim has many of the same mannerisms as Moridin again pointing to the hand behind the back thing, the colors, and the so-called Aiel statement. We haven't seen a cour'souvra broken so it is tough to say how it affects anyone, but if it useful only until broken then it is a fairly weak contraption. If I as Moridin have to spend 24/7 controlling you after I break your mindtrap, then I dam well wouldn't be wearing one around my neck where a fall would end my own self control. And giving two to the same person would be completely pointless. Moridin may keep Cyndane and Moggy in line with unbroken cour'souvra but that doesn't mean they are useless when broken.

 

He is supremely self confident and arrogant at all times. He calls himslef "the leader" and rules the BT as his private playground. He even got himself a throne for crying out loud. He behaves nothing at all like a man on a leash which has been relaxed for a while.

 

Yeap that sounds exactly like Moridin to me, he isn't on a leash anymore.

so how do you imagine a broken mindtrap would work? you said you don't think Moriding "driving" Taim 24/7 and is only taking over at certain times. That certainly disagrees with Taim's behavior as I said. His behavior is consistently the same at all times. and it doesn't seem consistent with what little we know of how a broken mindtrap works. Moggy describes this a bit:

The part of her that was her would be separated; she would still see with her eyes and hear with her ears, taste what crossed her tongue and feel what touched her, but helpless within an automaton that was utterly obedient to whoever held the cour’souvra.

-CoS, Ch 25

This sounds very much like how Rand was when he was wearing the domination band. but that would require active control of whoever is in charge at all times. else there'd be marked differences in behavior at times.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

simply mindtrapping someone doesn't give the person controlling the mindtrap direct control over the actions of the mindtrapped person. that only happens after the mindtrap is broken.

I don't think you meant to say what you seemed to here. We don't actually know what happens to a person once his mindtrap breaks, not beyond what Moghedien said, and I don't recall being left with the impression that one can control the actions of such a person, certainly not that such a person could function normally enough to avoid detection.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

simply mindtrapping someone doesn't give the person controlling the mindtrap direct control over the actions of the mindtrapped person. that only happens after the mindtrap is broken.

I don't think you meant to say what you seemed to here. We don't actually know what happens to a person once his mindtrap breaks, not beyond what Moghedien said, and I don't recall being left with the impression that one can control the actions of such a person, certainly not that such a person could function normally enough to avoid detection.

Of course I can not be sure how a broken mindtrap would work but based on the limited info provided by Moggy's remarks on the subject I imagine that it works pretty much like a remote controlled robot. That's what I meant above.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well after reading most of the debates on the website on who Taim is I have come up with the theory that Taim is only Taim but he is under Moridin's control due to the use of a cour'souvra or mind trap. In my mind it explains the mannerisms (hand held behind back, half smile etc.), the colors, and the "so-called" Aiel statement. The mind trap has been around since aCoS and has yet to be used. After Taim escaped he was taken to SG and forcibly mind-trapped. It is a leap, granted, but in my mind it makes the more sense then someone being locked in a stasis box or a new Chosen being raised.

 

The problem I'm having is that we have no idea how the owner of the mind trap is affected. Being that Moridin owns two cour'souvra my thought is that he can control the person without loosing himself. But perhaps it is something like what Graendal did when she hopped into the mind of the bird in ToM. We just don't have enough information to support either idea.

 

As to why this was done: it gives the shadow a person who can build an army of channelers right under Rand's nose. Note that Taim appeared on-screen very soon after Rand issued his amnesty. Another thing that has bugged me is why Taim was headed towards Andor in the first place. He was in Andor before Rand proclaimed his amnesty, so he didn't travel to Andor for that reason. Unless of course he intended to offer his support to Rand and the amnesty provided an easy way to do that.

 

 

The cour'souvra doesn't seem to have affected Lanfear's or Moghedian's minds though, so I think it's more likely that he as been 13 x 13'd

 

Hi, thats because theirs haven't been 'set off' or broken - they obey, as themselves, under threat of losing themselves.

 

 

Yes, but I think the point he was making was that Taim acts like Moridin and this couldnt be done via a cour'souvra.

Fear doesnt make Lan/Mog act like Moridin, so it has to be something else, possibly 13x13, possibly (but I think unlikely)

that Moridin broke his cour'souvra)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmm. I thought it was more like that de-soul-ed Ogier. Obeys your every command, but can't do anything on its own without someone's expressed say-so.

I think that's more or less the same thing that I had in mind. The original poster was suggesting something more intricate. I didn't fully understand it so I might be misinterpreting but I believe he was saying that Moridin might be controlling Taim when he needs to but at other times Taim acts on his own. It seems unlikely to me that a broken mindtrap would allow for such high degree of freedom but my point was that even if it does work that way then there would be a marked difference in Taim's behavior depending on whether Moridin is at the controls or not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmm. I thought it was more like that de-soul-ed Ogier. Obeys your every command, but can't do anything on its own without someone's expressed say-so.

 

 

I agree. Also like someone else mentioned there was no, none, zero foreshadowing about anything on Taim's neck ever. If there was then maybe this

theory would be more possible, but since there wasn't even a hint of it, just that Taim is acting like an ass.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Taim always comes through as extremely self-aware, and very much in control of his actions and emotions.

nasty maybe, but not mad or Compelled.

He doesn't seem to have changed much in terms of behaviour either, not since we've seen him first in LoC.

 

If it's Compulsion, or a broken cour'savra, the descriptions we've heard of them doesn't fit at all with his behaviour.

Nor does 13x13 (assuming we've seen 13x13 in ToM). Maybe, he's mind-trapped (normally not broken) but if so, we've received no hints of it in the plot.

 

Billy's Blade: The simplest explanation is Taim is a powerful, high-ranking DF Channeler who may have made it to "Neuvo-Chosen" status.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was immediately reminded of this:

 

Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and

be consumed by the Midnight Towers.

 

Only trouble is, I can't think of a wolf connection for Taim. Unless it's some kind of reference to him being from Saldaea, whose Marshal-General and Queen's uncle carries a wolf-head baton.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i think Taim turned after the rescue at Dumai's wells. I don't believe he was a darkfriend the whole time. Lews Therin mentions that Ishamael turned even though Lews Therin gave him many titles and such. Maybe Taim did the same.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was immediately reminded of this:

 

Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and

be consumed by the Midnight Towers.

 

Only trouble is, I can't think of a wolf connection for Taim. Unless it's some kind of reference to him being from Saldaea, whose Marshal-General and Queen's uncle carries a wolf-head baton.

sounds to me like it refers to Lord Luc/ SLayer. the one who looks like Lan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i think Taim turned after the rescue at Dumai's wells. I don't believe he was a darkfriend the whole time. Lews Therin mentions that Ishamael turned even though Lews Therin gave him many titles and such. Maybe Taim did the same.

He did eliminate that captured Grey Man beforehand...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is speculation on part granted, however I see no reason why Taim's behavior would change if in every scene that we see him in Moridin (or possibly Demi) is in control. Perhaps it's like the warder bond in a way and Moridin can simply command Taim to do certain things and Taim has no way of going against those commands. Given what we have seen with the Rand/Moridin link I would think that if Moridin was in complete control of somebody that they would pick up his mannerisms, thought patterens, and general disposition. We know Demandred is marshaling the armies for SG, I am at least unclear what Moridin is up to. The few times we have seen him has been at Forsaken meetings, and in a dream with Rand. Perhaps all of his time is spent in control of Taim; he can avoid the sickness from channeling Saidin and oversee the buildup of what is probably going to be the most important force (outside of the DO himself) for the baddies.

 

The problem I have with the 13+13 argument is that he doesn't have the same glossed over eyes that Mezar and company have.

Edited by Kiriath Til Asdod
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...