Hint from ToM to Seanchan damane resolution - theory

[b3arz3rg3r]

I really see no need for Tuon to start channelling and bonding Mat. Even if she agrees to end the practice of damane that's still no reason for her to embrace channelling herself. Atleast not in the last book. That would be a huge twist which really doesn't fit her character. She knows the truth about sul'dam and she has made her feelings about channelling plain to Mat. There's no reason for those feelings to change.

[lenardo]

Only way i could see this happening, say Matt is at tower at the attack; gets injured during fighting and -as with Egwene's bonding of Gawyn- the only way to save him would be to Bond Him to give him the "energy boost" to survive, then

 

Joline/Teslyn Bond Matt, and then Transfer the bond to Tuon-probably Joline since Teslyn is red and MOST(not all)reds supposedly do not know the Bond Weave.

 

the question is does the Recipient of the bond have to do anything besides able to channel? if not this is one way for Matt to get bonded with Tuon without his permission. Heck would not even have to be Joline/Teslyn it could be...Pura? (the Aes Sedai damane Tuon trained)that says upon tuon finding matt injured that the healing weaves would kill him, but she knows a weave that would give him enough energy/strength for the healing weave to save him, and Tuon without realizing what the weave is, Says Do it, and since she is linked with Pura, she gets Included in the Bonding Completely inadvertantly.

 

Tuon knows about the medallion so she take it off for the healing/bonding to work.

[Eichhörnchen]

I see no reason nor do I believe that the damane question will be solved in the books. I don't even see a need for it. The Randverse is a multitude of various cultures and peoples, it's realistic and hardly surprising that some cultures tired of the domineering and elitist attitude channeling groups tends to build in society and therefore turn the entire thing on it's head.

 

I see no reason for there to be a rectification of it all come Tarmon Gaidon. Life goes it's natural evolution. If history has taught us anything the current chaos among the Seanchan just leads to a further even more orthodox unyielding approach towards channelers, people in turmoil tend to be the most resistant to any form of outward change.

[Terez]

The reason why it needs to be resolved by the end of the book is that the two must be 'as one', and because Mat is obviously going to eventually accept his position of power among the Seanchan. No one believes that Mat will do that so long as women who can channel are collared.

[Mystica]

I don't see why 'the two must be as one' is related to Mat being bonded to Tuon. In the context of the other predictions from the Finn in which this line was given, the bonding of two people seems very unlikely to be the thing they referred to.

 

The North and the East must be as one (= 1 group)

The South and the West must be as one (= 1 group)

The Two must be as one (1 group + 1 group = two)

 

If the last sentence referred to any two people, I doubt it would be Mat and Tuon being bonded. It could simply mean that they needed to be joined (as in marriage). But why them? It could just as easily be about Siuan and Gareth Brynne. Or Rand and Moridin merged. Or the White and Black Tower united. There are too many possibilities that are still open for this to be about Mat bonding Tuon.

 

 

Mat 'eventually' accepting his place as the prince of ravens doesn't mean that it hàs to happen in the last book. Nor does the freeing of damane hàve to happen in the last book. If anything, it should NOT happenin the last book, because 99% of the damane would be a psychological nightmare to handle and there's no time to cater to their emotional breakdown with the LB looming. Afterwards, yes. But before, there's just not enough time.

[FarShainMael]

The Two must be as one..

 

Caemlyn and Cairhien are currently united under a single monarch.

[Terez]

I don't see why 'the two must be as one' is related to Mat being bonded to Tuon.

Because the Aelfinn were alluding to Rand's conquered lands and the Seanchan. Mat and Tuon are the obvious solution to that problem, though the bonding idea isn't necessary to it at all. But the Seanchan deal been a big deal since book 2, in case you didn't notice.

 

Mat 'eventually' accepting his place as the prince of ravens doesn't mean that it hàs to happen in the last book.

Oh, but it does. They didn't spend the whole series building it up for nothing. The Pattern didn't hook Mat up with Tuon because it was bored.

 

Nor does the freeing of damane hàve to happen in the last book. If anything, it should NOT happenin the last book, because 99% of the damane would be a psychological nightmare to handle and there's no time to cater to their emotional breakdown with the LB looming. Afterwards, yes. But before, there's just not enough time.

There is enough time to come to an agreement about it, at the very least. But also, the actual freeing of the damane is not as impossible as you make out, considering that everyone worships the Empress.

[sampleygirl]

I would like to see Mat bonded..I think that is a very valid theory. I think Tuon will fall to Rand and Matt's Tavereness. He has to bind the nine moons to him.

[FarShainMael]

I don't see why 'the two must be as one' is related to Mat being bonded to Tuon.

Because the Aelfinn were alluding to Rand's conquered lands and the Seanchan.

 

What makes you so sure of that?

 

(BTW, I do indeed think Mat will end up bonded to Tuon, but for different reasons.)

[Mystica]

I don't see why 'the two must be as one' is related to Mat being bonded to Tuon.

Because the Aelfinn were alluding to Rand's conquered lands and the Seanchan. Mat and Tuon are the obvious solution to that problem, though the bonding idea isn't necessary to it at all. But the Seanchan deal been a big deal since book 2, in case you didn't notice.

 

Yes, funnily enough, I did notice the importance of the Seanchan in the many years I've been reading the books. Might be a shock, but yeah, I did.

 

I said related to Mat BEING BONDED to Tuon. Not Mat having anything to do with Tuon. Bit of a difference there, as you yourself were so kind to point out.

 

Mat 'eventually' accepting his place as the prince of ravens doesn't mean that it hàs to happen in the last book.

Oh, but it does. They didn't spend the whole series building it up for nothing. The Pattern didn't hook Mat up with Tuon because it was bored.

 

Mat already accepted his faith of marrying Tuon several books ago and he already knows that he's the prince of ravens. It is perfectly possibly for him to cooperate with Tuon while still shafing at this prince business. People have been calling him Lord since what? Book 3 now? And he STILL doesn't accept that role, let alone a prince's role. Is it likely that he will accept it in book 3? Yes. It is absolutely necessary? No. This is WOT, things are never as straight cut as they appear on the surface. Something, I believe, you once said to someone yourself in one of your arguments.

 

 

Nor does the freeing of damane hàve to happen in the last book. If anything, it should NOT happenin the last book, because 99% of the damane would be a psychological nightmare to handle and there's no time to cater to their emotional breakdown with the LB looming. Afterwards, yes. But before, there's just not enough time.

There is enough time to come to an agreement about it, at the very least. But also, the actual freeing of the damane is not as impossible as you make out, considering that everyone worships the Empress.

 

If you know the psychology of the Seanchan, their history, culture, beliefs and traditions, then you will concede to the absolute impossibillity of them all suddenly going 'Oh, great, we have unleashed damane running around. Our Empress rocks'. And changing the minds of an entire Empire on something as bone deep installed as 'Must Leash Channelers! They're dangerous animals!' is NOT as simple as you make it out to be. It's not quite that simple to squash a thousand years of absolute belief, no matter how much they adore their Empress. And while everyone openly worships the Empress, the Nobles start scheming for her demise the moment she is raised to position (as Tuon herself clearly indicates when she wonders about Beslan's loyalty, which is something she clearly can not fathom and this is a leftover thought pattern and behavior from the Pre-Luthar days where loyalty was given for so long as gain was to be had and instantly changed the moment it became profitable in some way or other). Furthermore, if you subscribe to the Crystal Throne being a Ter'Angreal that installs awe for the person in it by all who comes before it, let me remind you that Tuon never sat on the Throne. The ONLY person that is allowed on that thing is the Empress, NOT the Daughter of the Nine Moons. The Throne is not on this side of the Aryth Ocean, it's back in Seandar, so no one has been before Tuon on the Crystal Throne to have been put in awe of her due to the effects of the Ter'Angreal.

 

At the same time you are utterly ignoring the fact that the damane themselves would all launch in to a wailing panick attack if they were unleashed, BEGGING the Sul'dam to collar them, as we have seen those in the Kin's care do. As we have seen former Sul'dam do when they discover they can channel themselves. The Empress may 'declare' that all damane must be set free, but all that would do is unleash a tidal wave of problems and violence that would deter from the fight against the Dark One. The damane would become utterly useless in the fight against the Dark.

 

Tuon may start to consider the idea of quitting the practice of leashing damane, but if it happens, it will more than likely happen after the LB and gradually so that the effects (politically as well as psychologically) can be minimized and the risks too. She won't risk thousands of 'off their rocker' damane at the verge of Tarmon Gaidon.

 

 

What is more likely is that Tuon will concede to leave the WT and the other channelers alone (for the time being, as she will sell it to her nobles) while Egwene and the Wise Ones will accept the Seanchan using damane (for the time being, as THEY will sell it to THEIR sides). This temporary truce seems much more likely than a sudden 180 on one of the Seanchan's most deeply felt traditions and almost religious beliefs.

 

The WT will have to swallow their pride in seeing Aes Sedai leashed

The Aiel will have to swallow their pride in seeing WO's leashed

And the Seanchan will have to get over their hatred and fear towards unleashed channelers.

 

This alone is more than enough for the Taveren of Rand and Mat to see happen without any further Godlike interference of Supernatural proportions.

 

 

Then àfterwards, when the LB is done, can come the time where things move towards the unleashing. Regardless the Uber Power of the Superboys, there's still an element of realism to take in to consideration.

 

 

IF it happens in the last book, then they damn well better provide a rock solid good reason and manner in which they do it, or otherwise it will singlehandedly whipe away all credibility the Seanchan culture has built up till now. Not everything will be washed clean simply because Rand happens to wave his hand.

 

 

Mat will undoubtedly be bonded to Tuon at some point. That's always been a given. That's been clear since the moment is was clear that Sul'dam could learn to channel and that Tuon was a Sul'dam herself. So that's not disputed. Only the timinig of it occurring is. If it happens in the next book, it will more than likely be because of something disastrous, though I don't quite know what would be disastrous enough for Tuon to take that step just yet. She's not raised to be weak hearted, people she loves and likes have been assassinated left, right and center (in some cases by her own command scheming even). I'm not fully convinced she would take that step just to save his life. In her mind, he may very well better be off dead than be bonded to a marath'damane in such a way.

 

 

So IF this one happens during the last book, again, it better be in the right setting and for the right reasons or it will cheapen a lot of things from the storylines as well.

[Terez]

I don't see why 'the two must be as one' is related to Mat being bonded to Tuon.

Because the Aelfinn were alluding to Rand's conquered lands and the Seanchan. Mat and Tuon are the obvious solution to that problem, though the bonding idea isn't necessary to it at all. But the Seanchan deal been a big deal since book 2, in case you didn't notice.

 

Yes, funnily enough, I did notice the importance of the Seanchan in the many years I've been reading the books. Might be a shock, but yeah, I did.

Funnily enough, it was pretty hard to tell from your post. Siuan and Bryne? WTF does that have to do with anything?

 

I said related to Mat BEING BONDED to Tuon. Not Mat having anything to do with Tuon. Bit of a difference there, as you yourself were so kind to point out.

Yes, but nobody suggest that 'the two must be as one' was related to Tuon bonding Mat. In fact, I was the only person to mention it, and it was in relation to the damane, and nothing to do with the bonding. So either you were arguing with nobody, or you were misconstruing my own argument. The latter seems more likely.

 

Mat 'eventually' accepting his place as the prince of ravens doesn't mean that it hàs to happen in the last book.

Oh, but it does. They didn't spend the whole series building it up for nothing. The Pattern didn't hook Mat up with Tuon because it was bored.

Mat already accepted his faith of marrying Tuon several books ago and he already knows that he's the prince of ravens. It is perfectly possibly for him to cooperate with Tuon while still shafing at this prince business. People have been calling him Lord since what? Book 3 now? And he STILL doesn't accept that role, let alone a prince's role. Is it likely that he will accept it in book 3? Yes. It is absolutely necessary? No.

Wrong. It's one of the major, over-arching themes of the books. RJ said that all major plot points will be resolved, and Mat's marriage to Tuon is one of those things, particularly as it relates to peace with the Seanchan. He's not going to 'cooperate' with Tuon so long as she collars damane; he's already made that clear enough to her. In fact, it's one of the main reasons why he guessed they would next meet on the battlefield.

 

If you know the psychology of the Seanchan, their history, culture, beliefs and traditions, then you will concede to the absolute impossibillity of them all suddenly going 'Oh, great, we have unleashed damane running around. Our Empress rocks'.

They will have pretty much the same reaction to the sul'dam secret.

 

At the same time you are utterly ignoring the fact that the damane themselves would all launch in to a wailing panick attack if they were unleashed, BEGGING the Sul'dam to collar them, as we have seen those in the Kin's care do.

You are 'utterly ignoring' that a damane has never been unleashed by the Empress.

 

As I said, I think it's more likely to be an agreement. But the release of the damane is not as impossible as you make it out to be. Sometimes paradigm shifts can happen very quickly, especially if there is some sort of motive (such as the sul'dam secret).

 

Mat will undoubtedly be bonded to Tuon at some point. That's always been a given.

It's never been a given, and it still isn't.

[Mystica]

the subtopic and discussion in this thread was about Mat bonding Tuon. You mentioned the part of the Finn prediction that the 'two must be one'. To which I said that I didn't see how that prediction must necessarily relate to Mat being bonded to Tuon but that 'the two must be one' can just as easily be about other people or institutions or whatever. Just because the majority thinks that it's about Mat and Tuon doesn't make it a fact. It makes it a popular belief.

 

And quite frankly, I don't get your hostility. People can't question things you post now that you must instantly turn sarcastic and outright hostile? Yes, I responded with similar sarcasm, which is generally what you get when you try that crap with me, but apparently you seem to be in a state where you prefer remaining and increasing hostilities instead of having a normal discussion. Since when do we have to agree with what you say in order to maintain a decent level of communication here without things turning to outright agressive accusations? I could have expected that from others, but not from you, Terez. Given that I've seen your posts to others and this is not what I'm used to seeing from you.

 

I may not have been reading these books since my teen years, but I've been reading them long enough. So there's no reason for you to get personal on this. I'm well within my rights to voice my own thoughts and ideas on these topics without having to expect some personal attack from you or anyone else.

 

To return to your arguments

 

The sul'dam secret will create a storm of panick in the Seanchan, that's for sure. Especially if it becomes public knowledge. Which I think Tuon will try her hardest to prevent, if she can. If not, I don't know how the general Seanchan population will react nore would I dare make an attempt to guess at it. It's such a highly loaded gun that it can go in any direction.

 

The major plotlines will be resolved, yes and Mat being married to the Daughter of the Nine Moons has happened. And yes, Mat said he would never cooperate so long as she leashes damane. But he will cooperate with the Dragon Reborn. If a truce is made with the Seanchan, that doesn't necessarily mean that Mat will be fighting alongside or 'under' Tuon's command. They may end up fighting in the same war on the same side, but each in their own seperate location. A stretch, I know. I'm just saying that it's not as fixed as you seem to think it is. Depending on how things go with Caemlyn, the WT, that field they're now gathering and the new Seanchan attack things can still go in many different directions.

 

It will also depend on how much time there will be displayed in the next book, though I doubt there will be more than a few months since all signs indicate that the beginning of the LB has already been activated across the Borderlands. So, personally, I don't think that it will be more than two or three months In Story anymore.

 

I hope they won't force things just to make them match in the book. This is what made me like the TOM less than TGS, it felt rushed in many ways and it would be really sad if they did that to the last book too.

[Terez]

the subtopic and discussion in this thread was about Mat bonding Tuon.

That's nice, but that doesn't mean that you should assume that everything refers to that without putting any further thought into it at all.

 

People can't question things you post now that you must instantly turn sarcastic and outright hostile?

It happens all the time. You even seem to admit as much later on.

[noynaert@gmail.com]

Mat's bond could be transferred to Fortuana without her needing to channel. We have seen Lan's bond get transferred twice. Nynaeve received the bond without channeling. My guess would be a healed Satelle bonds Mat to save him. She would want her real bond to be with her husband, so she would pass on Mat's bond to the most reasonable person who also happens to be something of a friend.

 

I am guessing Fortuana's attack on the White Tower will be a bust. I think the dreamspike that was protecting Taim and the Black Tower will get moved to the White Tower. That would thwart a traveling attack on the White Tower while also allowing the foretold attack on the Black Tower. If the attack on the White Tower does materialize then the Seanchan are likely to run into both male and female channelers. The first battle was battle-trained Damae against AS who often avoid learning combat weaves. This time they will probably encounter Asha'man who are living weapons. Asha'man would also likely be accompanied by AS. The AS could act as spotters for the men which would put the Damae at a distinct disadvantage. But I don't think it will actually come to a battle.

 

I will also toss out another possibility for two becoming one. Perhaps it refers to Saidar and Saidin being channeled together. That has already happened to a limited extent, but it is likely to be a major aspect of the last battle.

[FarShainMael]

About the 'two must be as one'.. There are a number of ideas about what this might mean, and someone even suggested that they may all be correct (kudos to them). One thing, though. Rand is ready to move, even though he says he still needs info on how to actually close the Bore. If the Aelfinn answer refers to anything to do with Randland's political geography or relations with other cultures, then it's likely it has already happened.

[Aquarius]

One of the widespread solutions theorized here is the the OP will disapear (thus voiding Aviendha's visions because she will have done something to avoid that future from happening). With no OP, no need to keep the damanes on a leash.

[Mystica]

good point on the dreamspikes, Dudley. Those hadn't even occurred to me.

 

Personally I always thought the two must be as one being Rand and Lews, when he finally accepted that he is Lews and vice versa, which happened in TGS.

[Terez]

It's a non sequitur. It only makes sense if you ignore the east/north south/west thing. 'The two' refers to those two. Not only is it quite clear in the context, but it's also clear by a number of other prophecies, most importantly those pointing to the binding/bowing and the marriage of Mat and Tuon.

[FarShainMael]

But as I've pointed out earlier, context isn't a reliable guide with prophetic utterances:

 

'He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one.' Does 'he' really have three hands? No of course not. It must be three of something else, context or grammar notwithstanding.

 

As to the prophecies of binding / bowing, 'binding to serve' doesn't make people/empires 'as one', and neither does bowing; both are ruler/subject relationships.

 

And as for Mat's marriage, IMO there is still room for doubt:

 

Moiraine: You accidentally married the Seanchan empress?

 

Mat: Daughter of the Nine Moons. It's different.

 

It might be, of course, that your reading of the situation will turn out to be partially or wholly correct. We don't know. None of us is the author, after all.

 

(Unless BS is lurking.. )

[herid]

One of the widespread solutions theorized here is the the OP will disapear (thus voiding Aviendha's visions because she will have done something to avoid that future from happening). With no OP, no need to keep the damanes on a leash.

The OP will not disappear. Even discounting Avi's visions which mostly will not come about anyway, there is a vision of Min in Bandar Eban:

 

That woman there—the one sulking in the shadows—she will be trained by the White Tower and become Aes Sedai. I can see the Flame of Tar Valon beside her, and I know what it means.

-ToM, Ch 25

 

She later even clarifies the vision and says that the woman will learn to channel. There is no time at all to do that before the LB.

 

The woman Min had noted earlier—the one she was certain could learn to channel—came over to speak with Rand.

-ToM, Ch 25

 

Min's viewings always come true which means that there will be channeling after the LB.

[Terez]

But as I've pointed out earlier, context isn't a reliable guide with prophetic utterances:

 

'He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one.' Does 'he' really have three hands? No of course not. It must be three of something else, context or grammar notwithstanding.

The examples aren't comparable because it's a different sort of context. Following the Aelfinn's comment, it's obvious that 'the two' refers to the two joined areas they had just mentioned. If there had been an obvious 'three' mentioned in this prophecy, then we would know what the 'three' are, but since there wasn't, we don't. But the most logical choice to Cadsuane and Min and Rand seems to be that it has to do with the fact that Rand can't use Callandor safely without two women to link with him. But as they don't even know for sure that the 'blade of light' is Callandor, they might well be wrong. The Aelfinn's prophecy is much more clear.

 

The 'none of us is the author' comment is just ridiculous, because it throws logic out completely. In that case, we might as well not discuss things at all.

[FarShainMael]

How on earth can you have 'a different sort of context'?

 

Discuss things by all means, that's why we are here, after all. But PLEASE try to avoid presenting your opinions as facts. I refer to your statement 'the Aelfinn were alluding to Rand's conquered lands and the Seanchan', and your insistence on equating 'his destruction' from the DP with his death. Both completely ignore other possible interpretations.

 

I shall say no more on that subject, I'll just filter it out.

[Mystica]

I agree with Herid that the OP won't dissapear at the end of this age. In fact, I think that it will take at least another full age for the Wheel to come to teh point where the OP and channelers will fade off in to non-existance. This is after all only the third Age. There's 5 more Ages to go before the next Age of Legend and even if channeling is re-discovered in the 1st Age (the one previous to the Age of Legends), that still leaves 4 full ages to fill.

 

Personally I think the next age will see an integration of the use of the OP in every day life, but not to the extent that it was in the Age of Legends. In my view, channeling will become accepted and commonplace in all cultures (including the Seanchan) which will then lead to the more mundane conflicts again: who should rule who and have what power over who. This (again, eventually) may then lead to the rise of religious groups that will become more and more self-important and convinced of their own supremecy over others and resent the power channelers have which will then lead to a return to calling them Witches (and Warlocks for the men) with a WOT-version of the Spanish Inquisition. The use of canons and other man-made, non-OP related, weapons will bring the non-channelers close to or even beyond the capacity of channelers, forcing them in to hiding and eventually culling out the ability all together. Until the existance of the One Power and channelers will be completely whiped from memory (similar to the destruction of monuments and buildings and books that happened here in our world, to fully eradicate cultures or beliefs that the ruling class wanted to see eliminated), preparing the world for the re-discovery of the OP in the 1st or 2nd Age again.

 

It's a shortened version of what I have in mind, but it shows the butt of the idea.

[Terez]

How on earth can you have 'a different sort of context'?

In the way that I explained, which you seem to have missed (or ignored). You're comparing apples and oranges.

[maddface]

There is no Seanchan empire on the other side of the Aryth ocean. The empress was killed by Semi and put the empire into rebellion. Therefore the extent of the Seanchan empire is in Randland right now. In Randland the Seanchan are outnumbered by the people they control who, for the most part, respect AS (not trust or even like, only respect). Rulers have to take into account the emotional state of the people they rule and, along with her time with Setalle Anan (sp.)and the "sul'dam secret", will lead Fortuona to reconsider the leashing of Damane, imo. She doesnt have to worry about what people in Seanchan think about her actions now, her and Mat are going to have to go reconquer the homelands anyway (what the outriggers will be, imo), her primary concern will be keeping the Randlanders on board. They may say nothing right now due to fear after being conquered and security that they have right now, but people will eventually stand up for what they believe in. This along with all the other experiences of Fortuona will lead to the unleashing of Damane on this side of the Aryth. What better way to show the embracing of non-leashed channelers to the people than for Fortuona to take up one of the customs of the marathdamane and bond Mat. May not happen in the final book, I most likely see it in the outriggers, but it may and help lead into the outriggers.