A Demandred thread.

[yoniy0]

He was not told to kill Mat till ToM though.

We know they were told before the KoD tea hour, because Semirhage knew she was supposed to get Matrim Cauthon, she just didn't know his face. She tells Moridin that if he showed her that before, Mat would already have been killed.

[Bluedust9]

Most importantly, there is no negative evidence against the Dem=Roedran theory, which there is about every other.

There is some negative evidence IMO. I would find it out of character for Demandred to read someone else's books on war as he considers himself to be a great general. I also find it out of character for him to treat Talmanes so nicely. Roedran gave him a number of gifts (including a copy of Comadrin's book). Somehow I don't see Demandred doing that. He also let Talmanes and the Band go without trying to appropriate them. Terez has a theory on the issue that it's all part of some very devious plot by Demandred but that theory is pretty much pure speculation at this point. I do admit that there is a lot of evidence pointing toward Roedran but I still think it more likely that Demandred is controlling Roedran but is not impersonating him personally.

There's been a careful build up of evidence for Roedran hasn't there?

Also if Demandred is not Roedran, or some character who has never been mentioned in passing (that would be lame in literary terms), who is he?

 

The change in his personality from pleasure-loving wimp to a gunslinger who welds a warring nation together.

The interest in military affairs - reading manuals on the art of war, etc.

His staying offstage, which gels with RJ's and Brandon's statements.

Murandy fits the bill as well - it's beautifully placed in Central Wotland, especially if it has portal stones and Waygate connections.

 

 

Of course, all this could be a red herring. But the Danelle - Mesaana reveal suggests that it's not - Dem=Roedran would fit with the way in which Brandon followed through on the Mesaana narrative.

 

Hell Rahvin gave Mat a bag of coins when he delivered the letter to Morgase, maybe he was being nice so Talmanes wouldn't question the pipe he gave him.

 

Also war strategy has changed in 3,000 years. Demandred would know this and the smartest thing to do would be read up on the present day strategy. Imagine a Roman general being transplanted to this time and not learning anything about the modern warfare, it'd be incompetent.

[mb]

Like I posted in past threads, 2 locations seem likely for Demandred's "main" location::

-Black Tower

-Madmen Land

 

Shara might be eliminated. A comment from Robert Jordan prevented on-screen visits to there.

Seanchan also. I take Robert Jordan told that there would not be any more on-screen visits to there.

 

Reasons for the 2 locations::

-both might allow Demandred to get close to Rand without being in Rand's presence

-both might allow him to visit his proxies

[herid]

Most importantly, there is no negative evidence against the Dem=Roedran theory, which there is about every other.

There is some negative evidence IMO. I would find it out of character for Demandred to read someone else's books on war as he considers himself to be a great general. I also find it out of character for him to treat Talmanes so nicely. Roedran gave him a number of gifts (including a copy of Comadrin's book). Somehow I don't see Demandred doing that. He also let Talmanes and the Band go without trying to appropriate them. Terez has a theory on the issue that it's all part of some very devious plot by Demandred but that theory is pretty much pure speculation at this point. I do admit that there is a lot of evidence pointing toward Roedran but I still think it more likely that Demandred is controlling Roedran but is not impersonating him personally.

There's been a careful build up of evidence for Roedran hasn't there?

Also if Demandred is not Roedran, or some character who has never been mentioned in passing (that would be lame in literary terms), who is he?

 

The change in his personality from pleasure-loving wimp to a gunslinger who welds a warring nation together.

The interest in military affairs - reading manuals on the art of war, etc.

His staying offstage, which gels with RJ's and Brandon's statements.

Murandy fits the bill as well - it's beautifully placed in Central Wotland, especially if it has portal stones and Waygate connections.

 

 

Of course, all this could be a red herring. But the Danelle - Mesaana reveal suggests that it's not - Dem=Roedran would fit with the way in which Brandon followed through on the Mesaana narrative.

 

Hell Rahvin gave Mat a bag of coins when he delivered the letter to Morgase,

There was a clear reason for Rhavin doing that and it wasn't altruism. We never see any Forsaken acting altruistically unless they have a very good reason to do so.

What I'm saying is that Demandred=Roedran showering Talmanes with gifts is very much out of character unless we also accept something along the lines of terez' Finder on the pipe theory.

 

maybe he was being nice so Talmanes wouldn't question the pipe he gave him.

that's exactly what I'm saying. It does make sense if you believe in the theory about the pipe and this is not something I'm willing to buy without more evidence.

Also war strategy has changed in 3,000 years. Demandred would know this and the smartest thing to do would be read up on the present day strategy. Imagine a Roman general being transplanted to this time and not learning anything about the modern warfare, it'd be incompetent.

ok, that's a good point. Comadrin is hardly present day of course but apparently, things have changed little since his time.

[yoniy0]

that's exactly what I'm saying. It does make sense if you believe in the theory about the pipe and this is not something I'm willing to buy without more evidence.

Actually, it makes sense if you believe Demandred let the Band go to find Mat through them or lead him to a trap, regardless of how likely you think that Finder business is. And it definitely stands to reason that this is exactly what Demandred would do, as I tried to demonstrate.

 

Also war strategy has changed in 3,000 years. Demandred would know this and the smartest thing to do would be read up on the present day strategy. Imagine a Roman general being transplanted to this time and not learning anything about the modern warfare, it'd be incompetent.

ok, that's a good point. Comadrin is hardly present day of course but apparently, things have changed little since his time.

It's not quite like that, though. Demandred was a great general in a time were warfare was far more advanced, weapons far more deadly, and troop sizes considerably larger. And then, near the end of the War of Power, warfare became much like what it is today in Randland, if still on a larger scale. So it's more like an awarded West Point graduate who studied the classics being put in charge of a Roman legion. He might have to adjust a bit, but he knows the theory through and through.

[Bluedust9]

that's exactly what I'm saying. It does make sense if you believe in the theory about the pipe and this is not something I'm willing to buy without more evidence.

Actually, it makes sense if you believe Demandred let the Band go to find Mat through them or lead him to a trap, regardless of how likely you think that Finder business is. And it definitely stands to reason that this is exactly what Demandred would do, as I tried to demonstrate.

 

Also war strategy has changed in 3,000 years. Demandred would know this and the smartest thing to do would be read up on the present day strategy. Imagine a Roman general being transplanted to this time and not learning anything about the modern warfare, it'd be incompetent.

ok, that's a good point. Comadrin is hardly present day of course but apparently, things have changed little since his time.

It's not quite like that, though. Demandred was a great general in a time were warfare was far more advanced, weapons far more deadly, and troop sizes considerably larger. And then, near the end of the War of Power, warfare became much like what it is today in Randland, if still on a larger scale. So it's more like an awarded West Point graduate who studied the classics being put in charge of a Roman legion. He might have to adjust a bit, but he knows the theory through and through.

 

I dunno, has been shown Aginor can't recreate what he did in the AOL. Imagine being used to "laser guns" and then coming into an Age that doesn't even know gunpowder (yet). Imagine if the world ever loses electricity, you think anyone could handle it?

 

It's a huge change, and Demandred needs to learn what the people in this Age are using so he can combat it.

[mb]

Age of Legends probably had much more books on any subject than Third Age people have; and those books probably spanned a much longer time than the books available in Third Age.

Demandred might have read a number of war books during Age of Legends and might have remembered their context.

[yoniy0]

I dunno, has been shown Aginor can't recreate what he did in the AOL. Imagine being used to "laser guns" and then coming into an Age that doesn't even know gunpowder (yet). Imagine if the world ever loses electricity, you think anyone could handle it?

 

It's a huge change, and Demandred needs to learn what the people in this Age are using so he can combat it.

You refer to shocklances, I presume? By the end of the War of Power such items weren't in large supply. Indeed, most soldiers were reduced to using good old fashion swords and bows, not even Power-wrought. Yet Demandred was still a prominent general, and in fact he led his forces to certain victory (only the pesky Lews Therin managed to Seal him away before he could achieve it).

[Bluedust9]

I dunno, has been shown Aginor can't recreate what he did in the AOL. Imagine being used to "laser guns" and then coming into an Age that doesn't even know gunpowder (yet). Imagine if the world ever loses electricity, you think anyone could handle it?

 

It's a huge change, and Demandred needs to learn what the people in this Age are using so he can combat it.

You refer to shocklances, I presume? By the end of the War of Power such items weren't in large supply. Indeed, most soldiers were reduced to using good old fashion swords and bows, not even Power-wrought. Yet Demandred was still a prominent general, and in fact he led his forces to certain victory (only the pesky Lews Therin managed to Seal him away before he could achieve it).

 

Nah I was actually just speaking of any kind of future tech. I was just saying going from one extreme to another is tough, even for genius generals. More reason to research the current Age's warfare.

[Bluedust9]

Age of Legends probably had much more books on any subject than Third Age people have; and those books probably spanned a much longer time than the books available in Third Age.

Demandred might have read a number of war books during Age of Legends and might have remembered their context.

 

This makes no sense. Books in the Second Age, even if they reference the First Age could never mention the Third Age. If we're to believe the First Age is ours, I don't see any nukes flying around in the Third Age.

[Terez]

Balthamel was the one who studied primitive cultures. I get the impression that war had been forgotten for a long time by the time the Bore was drilled, and sword-fighting was just a sport.

 

Here's Aubree's vote tally at the mis-named last theory panel (she changed her vote):

 

 

So perhaps 90% was an exaggeration, lol.

[mb]

Age of Legends probably had much more books on any subject than Third Age people have; and those books probably spanned a much longer time than the books available in Third Age.

Demandred might have read a number of war books during Age of Legends and might have remembered their context.

This makes no sense. Books in the Second Age, even if they reference the First Age could never mention the Third Age. If we're to believe the First Age is ours, I don't see any nukes flying around in the Third Age.

I was implying wars that occurred before the invention/discovery of gunpowder.

[Bluedust9]

Age of Legends probably had much more books on any subject than Third Age people have; and those books probably spanned a much longer time than the books available in Third Age.

Demandred might have read a number of war books during Age of Legends and might have remembered their context.

This makes no sense. Books in the Second Age, even if they reference the First Age could never mention the Third Age. If we're to believe the First Age is ours, I don't see any nukes flying around in the Third Age.

I was implying wars that occurred before the invention/discovery of gunpowder.

 

And who's to say any of those wars are anything like the Third Age wars?

 

edit: In any case, no matter what we argue, any good general will take time to learn the strategies of the times if they for some reason were transported in time, I don't think that can be argued at all.

[herid]

Balthamel was the one who studied primitive cultures. I get the impression that war had been forgotten for a long time by the time the Bore was drilled, and sword-fighting was just a sport.

 

Here's Aubree's vote tally at the mis-named last theory panel (she changed her vote):

 

 

 

So perhaps 90% was an exaggeration, lol.

Tenobia's lover?! that's a new one. does she have one?

 

also, who is the Emperor? 8 votes. that's more than Madmen and Shara combined.

[Terez]

Tenobia's lover?! that's a new one. does she have one?

lol. Can't wait till this video goes up. Everyone in the audience insisted she had one, and that it was mentioned in TOM. I was really worried I'd missed something, but I can't find what they were talking about.

 

also, who is the Emperor? 8 votes. that's more than Madmen and Shara combined.

I mentioned to Aubree that we don't know if the 'murderer' ruling in Seandar has proclaimed himself Emperor (assuming it's a he), and her response was something like 'Well, we don't know he didn't either.' So I was like, okay then.

[yoniy0]

Nah I was actually just speaking of any kind of future tech. I was just saying going from one extreme to another is tough, even for genius generals. More reason to research the current Age's warfare.

And I'm trying to tell you, by the end of the War of Power they didn't have any more fancy technology. They fought the way Randlanders do today (albeit with grater use of the One Power, but that's still available). Demandred HAS experience fighting in such circumstances. And he proved effective - the Shadow was winning.

[Zentari]

And I'm trying to tell you, by the end of the War of Power they didn't have any more fancy technology. They fought the way Randlanders do today (albeit with grater use of the One Power, but that's still available). Demandred HAS experience fighting in such circumstances. And he proved effective - the Shadow was winning.

In a battle (not the war in general) one thing reigns above all: numbers.Strategy and tactics can get you a long way but it boils down to this: who has the most meat for the meatgrinder.

 

As it is obvious, the shadow had that advantage from the start and while Trollocs with shocklances might come off as comical, when the production capabilities deteriorated it was only a matter of time until the Shadow overrun them.

[yoniy0]

Regardless, Demandred knows about primitive strategies (unless it's your position that he never was much of a general to begin with, relying solely on numbers, but I don't think that holds water).

But I'd love to know if that fact is from the BWB (the Shadow fielding superior numbers). I don't recall reading about it in tSoSG.

[Zentari]

I'm not saying he is not a great general , I'm saying that by the end, it wouldn't matter if he was good with primitive battle tactics.

But I'd love to know if that fact is from the BWB (the Shadow fielding superior numbers). I don't recall reading about it in tSoSG.

It is not taken from anywhere but it is easily deduced.Given their numbers as well as the general disposition as a race,trollocs seem to be in abundance ,so unless the light managed to get breeding grounds up and running,and it's arguable if they would be up to producing viable numbers,I don't see how they would be able to field equal armies at that point in the conflict.

[Sharaman]

Quite apart from the fact that he might do it for entertainment (historians read books on history, mathematicians look at books on maths), no competent general would fail to study the contemporary war strategy and tactics in an unfamiliar era if he got a chance to do so before actually going into battle.

It would be like a chess player going into a game against an unfamiliar opponent while passing up the chance to do prep on what the guy is likely to play.

Reference Tylee's thoughts on the subject - no sensible general wants to wing it and find out the best responses on the battlefield when he has another less dangerous option.

Dem's reading everything Third Age he can find on the subject of military history makes total sense. It reinforces the possibility that he is Roedran.

[yoniy0]

Reading the book, sure. Making a big fuss about it, like it's the Creator's own truth put into words, well that's some sort of play. Perhaps to 'excuse' future successes at the battlefield, or to make people look down on him (and thus lower their guards). Talmanes sure took it as a nonsensical notion.

Unless of course if he isn't Demandred, and then it's just another sign that he's not a serious monarch.

[Terez]

As I mentioned when I first posted the FAQ page, I think it likely that Demandred knew of Mat's familiarity with the book, if for no other reason than that Talmanes mentioned it. But the most likely reason why he made a big deal about it was to explain why Roedran all of a sudden is a brilliant general, when he wasn't known to be particularly clever or ambitious before.

[mb]

Actually numbers do not win a battle or a war.

With right tactics, the smaller side can win.

Some of Mat's scenes I take show these. Do not have time to check now.

[Guest mike03]

I'm not sure about Demandred as Roedran. I feel like Talmanes had the impression that Roedran was a fool regarding war and the military, or at least unknowing. I don't see Demandred playing that role even if he wants to provide a reason for future success on the battlefield. For Talmanes to make a comment about Roedran reading the book so thoroughly because he thought that it would make him a good general makes it seem like Talmanes and Roedran had conversations about the book and war. If that's the case, I would assume that Demandred's pride would keep him from speaking like a complete fool about war in front of another military man. The Forsaken don't seem to have that in them.

[Zentari]

Actually numbers do not win a battle or a war.

With right tactics, the smaller side can win.

Some of Mat's scenes I take show these. Do not have time to check now.

Way for missing my point.

 

The smaller side can win with tactics because they whittle down they enemy while taking minor losses,it's still a question of numbers though.