Was Taim a darkfriend from the beginning?

[UGAShadow]

This has always bugged me. The Black Ajah had ample opportunity to do it. And, we've seen that Tiam is doing it to those that become Ashaman. His temperament seems to suggest this may be so. The hate and anger that many took as proof that he was Demandred could actually be evidence he was turned. Its said that when you're turned that way its the person but with all the negative things about him brought out and the good things pushed down. Anger and hate are two bad emotions and could indicate this.

 

 

I just want the thoughts of others.

[A Rant Lord]

I think there has been an entire discussion about this already. Don't know where the thread is though...

[SethBaker]

I doubt it. He doesn't have the "eyes of a corpse."

[Terez]

Indeed, the turning campaign was probably delayed until recently because the effects are so obvious. Taim doesn't qualify.

[Samborob]

I think it could go either way with him having turned later after he got too jealous of Rand just like demandred did against lews therin or he could have always been one. but what i want to know is why no one believes that the weird things going on at the black tower is actually just compulsion being used and not people being turned at all. i say this because no one really got a close look at a compulsed person from a perspective like that of androl or pevara. comments?

[yoniy0]

I tend to agree he wasn't turned, but I do think he's been a DF for longer than we've known him (and I don't mean the couple of weeks after he was freed and before he arrived at Caemlyn).

[OptimusPrime]

Neither. The Dark One ordered Taims capture so Ishamael could return in his body. Taim himself was never a Darkfriend, and we have never ever seen him-only Ishamael in his body.

[Mats Spare Hat]

I've kinda been interested in the 'At what point did Taim go bad' angle...There's a couple options from the way I see it:

 

1.) He went bad when he started channeling - Ishy did the same dream invasion thing he did with Rand, except Taim accepted, not wanting to go taint-insane...Or maybe he even pledged his soul for the same reason, without any influence by the Forsaken.

 

2.) He went bad because he really wanted to be the Dragon, but then when it manifested that Rand was the real deal, he got pissed and went bad.

 

 

It also can make you wonder if he was present at the DF meeting in LoC, given he drops the Let the LoC rule line later on. But, who knows eh?

[herid]

This has always bugged me. The Black Ajah had ample opportunity to do it. And, we've seen that Tiam is doing it to those that become Ashaman. His temperament seems to suggest this may be so. The hate and anger that many took as proof that he was Demandred could actually be evidence he was turned. Its said that when you're turned that way its the person but with all the negative things about him brought out and the good things pushed down. Anger and hate are two bad emotions and could indicate this.

 

 

I just want the thoughts of others.

Taim was definitely not turned as others have mentioned. He doesn't have the look. Also, I'm 100% sure that the current Taim is not the original Taim who declared himself the Dragon.

 

He may be a very trusted lieutenant of Moridin or Moridin himself.

[Cybertrolloc]

Outside ToM, there's just so little about Taim that you can argue practically anything. Compulsion, binding, some other shadow thing not quite 13x13 (presuming BS did with it what RJ hinted about and whether the ToM obviousness persists or whether it's just noticeable to people that know each other well or ... well, description from posts here and elsewhere seem to match the QotW on the subject of 13x13 without too much strain). It's up there with wtf has Dem been doing for 9 books :)

 

Herid, you forgot Perrin's nose in your write-up (early ACoS wrt Taim). Doubt that that type of thing would be throwaway dialog we'd blow out of proportion, and there's definitely something there. Just that checking further means looking at those horrible Perrin chapters!

[Guest mike03]

I've kinda been interested in the 'At what point did Taim go bad' angle...There's a couple options from the way I see it:

 

1.) He went bad when he started channeling - Ishy did the same dream invasion thing he did with Rand, except Taim accepted, not wanting to go taint-insane...Or maybe he even pledged his soul for the same reason, without any influence by the Forsaken.

 

2.) He went bad because he really wanted to be the Dragon, but then when it manifested that Rand was the real deal, he got pissed and went bad.

 

 

It also can make you wonder if he was present at the DF meeting in LoC, given he drops the Let the LoC rule line later on. But, who knows eh?

 

I agree with your second option. I don't think that Taim was a darkfriend until he realized that Rand really was the Dragon. It was probably jealousy and a lust for power, similar to some of the Forsaken's feelings for Lews Therin. Taim even said when he first met Rand that he considered it a partnership, but then Rand shot that down. I assume that Taim always wanted to overtake Rand if he had the chance, so he probably turned once in the Black Tower while developing his own army of channelers.

[sVieira151]

At what time in the books did the first mention of Taim occur? (I don't have books 1-3 with me, so i can't check. :( )

[OptimusPrime]

This has always bugged me. The Black Ajah had ample opportunity to do it. And, we've seen that Tiam is doing it to those that become Ashaman. His temperament seems to suggest this may be so. The hate and anger that many took as proof that he was Demandred could actually be evidence he was turned. Its said that when you're turned that way its the person but with all the negative things about him brought out and the good things pushed down. Anger and hate are two bad emotions and could indicate this.

 

 

I just want the thoughts of others.

Taim was definitely not turned as others have mentioned. He doesn't have the look. Also, I'm 100% sure that the current Taim is not the original Taim who declared himself the Dragon.

 

He may be a very trusted lieutenant of Moridin or Moridin himself.

 

Herid my friend you do a far better job than I. For one thing, I didnt know about this:

 

Towers of Midnight book tour 6 November 2010, Bailey's Crossroads, VA - Robert Mee reporting

 

 

Taim may not be a standard Third-Ager. Brandon wouldn’t say any further because he has about 5 chapters revolving around the Black Tower to write for the beginning of the next book and he didn’t want to spoil, so it was half a RAFO.

 

Before I read ToM I asked my bro, who had read it, if Taim was in it. He said yes, so like the ridiculous obsessive fool that I am I found that Taim bit before reading the rest. I was looking specifically for Moridin mannerisms, and there was the hand thing. That was all the confirmation I needed, in fact that felt like the icing on the cake. That thing about Brandon saying Taim might not be a standard Third Ager... feels like the cherry on top! Nice one.

[herid]

This has always bugged me. The Black Ajah had ample opportunity to do it. And, we've seen that Tiam is doing it to those that become Ashaman. His temperament seems to suggest this may be so. The hate and anger that many took as proof that he was Demandred could actually be evidence he was turned. Its said that when you're turned that way its the person but with all the negative things about him brought out and the good things pushed down. Anger and hate are two bad emotions and could indicate this.

 

 

I just want the thoughts of others.

Taim was definitely not turned as others have mentioned. He doesn't have the look. Also, I'm 100% sure that the current Taim is not the original Taim who declared himself the Dragon.

 

He may be a very trusted lieutenant of Moridin or Moridin himself.

 

Herid my friend you do a far better job than I. For one thing, I didnt know about this:

 

Towers of Midnight book tour 6 November 2010, Bailey's Crossroads, VA - Robert Mee reporting

 

 

Taim may not be a standard Third-Ager. Brandon wouldn’t say any further because he has about 5 chapters revolving around the Black Tower to write for the beginning of the next book and he didn’t want to spoil, so it was half a RAFO.

 

Before I read ToM I asked my bro, who had read it, if Taim was in it. He said yes, so like the ridiculous obsessive fool that I am I found that Taim bit before reading the rest. I was looking specifically for Moridin mannerisms, and there was the hand thing. That was all the confirmation I needed, in fact that felt like the icing on the cake. That thing about Brandon saying Taim might not be a standard Third Ager... feels like the cherry on top! Nice one.

the main problem with this is that we don't know if this is a direct quote or if it was paraphrased. I mentioned that in my blog post. Most interview reports are paraphrased. Most people don't bring tape recorders to the interviews and relate the answers from memory. That being the case I would not base too much on that quote.

[OptimusPrime]

This has always bugged me. The Black Ajah had ample opportunity to do it. And, we've seen that Tiam is doing it to those that become Ashaman. His temperament seems to suggest this may be so. The hate and anger that many took as proof that he was Demandred could actually be evidence he was turned. Its said that when you're turned that way its the person but with all the negative things about him brought out and the good things pushed down. Anger and hate are two bad emotions and could indicate this.

 

 

I just want the thoughts of others.

Taim was definitely not turned as others have mentioned. He doesn't have the look. Also, I'm 100% sure that the current Taim is not the original Taim who declared himself the Dragon.

 

He may be a very trusted lieutenant of Moridin or Moridin himself.

 

Herid my friend you do a far better job than I. For one thing, I didnt know about this:

 

Towers of Midnight book tour 6 November 2010, Bailey's Crossroads, VA - Robert Mee reporting

 

 

Taim may not be a standard Third-Ager. Brandon wouldn’t say any further because he has about 5 chapters revolving around the Black Tower to write for the beginning of the next book and he didn’t want to spoil, so it was half a RAFO.

 

Before I read ToM I asked my bro, who had read it, if Taim was in it. He said yes, so like the ridiculous obsessive fool that I am I found that Taim bit before reading the rest. I was looking specifically for Moridin mannerisms, and there was the hand thing. That was all the confirmation I needed, in fact that felt like the icing on the cake. That thing about Brandon saying Taim might not be a standard Third Ager... feels like the cherry on top! Nice one.

the main problem with this is that we don't know if this is a direct quote or if it was paraphrased. I mentioned that in my blog post. Most interview reports are paraphrased. Most people don't bring tape recorders to the interviews and relate the answers from memory. That being the case I would not base too much on that quote.

 

See, thats a good point, but the thing is I knew (... ok I thought) Taim wasnt a standard Third Ager before TGS came out. Also I need to read the section CyberTrolloc mentioned, as I dont remember anything about Perrin smelling Taim. That should be interesting.

 

Cheers herid and Cyber!

[UGAShadow]

Well Taim isn't Moridin unless he likes giving orders twice (to kill Rand in WH).

[Samborob]

Anyone think there is any hope he is not a DF? just hoping but feel free to blow me out of the water haha. i had always thought taim was a badass kinda sucks if he turns though there does seem to be a lot of evidence to spurn my hope lol

[yoniy0]

I would think that the fact people are now being 13/13ed in the BT says it all, even if the "lord of chaos" thing could be explained away.

[Samborob]

But what if it isnt a 13x13 what if it is just compulsion. and bt i dont really believe he isnt a DF i just dont want him to be, though it would still be cool his death better just not suck. i personally think it is compulsion because they act a lot like the otehr compulsed ppl shown earlier except u see it closer up by ppl who know the compulsed individuals personally . first time we have seen a person compulsed by someone close to that person to notice strange differences?

[OptimusPrime]

Well Taim isn't Moridin unless he likes giving orders twice (to kill Rand in WH).

 

Tell an idiot what he needs to hear to get the job done. Kisman failed once, Moridin probably understands that telling someone to kill the strongest Ta'veren ever after they already failed isnt such a clever strategy.