Similarities with WOT and Sword of Truth (SOT) Series

[Hagazussa]

I have never liked Goodkind as a person, I will not go so far as to say that someone I have never met is a horrible human being, but I can say that from what I know of him he is not a person that I like, however I do not buy books based on how much I like the personality, ethics, political views or anything else about the author, I buy books based on whatever or not I enjoy them. Clearly mocking someone who is dying id despicable, that do not change the quality of someone's books.

 

Now I am not saying that there are not similarities between WoT and SoT however I do not agree that the overall stories are similar they are not more similar than most stories in the same genre, some elements have a striking similarity yes, we all know the Sisters of the Light is Aes Sedai with the serial numbers filed of, however the similarities between SoT and WoT are less obvious than between WoT and Dune and none of it is so similar as to call it a ripoff, that something is similar do not make it a ripoff, even if you do not like the author who have written it.

[Suttree]

 however the similarities between SoT and WoT are less obvious than between WoT and Dune and none of it is so similar as to call it a ripoff,

 Uhhmm no. Drag up some old threads where it is broken down in detail. It is rather telling, again as is the quotes Terez provided.

[Nolder]

Kind of ridiculous how many common fantasy tropes are being used as "proof" that Goodkind was stealing ideas from Jordan.

 

You don't like Goodkind as a person or you don't like his books that's cool and all but please don't accuse him of stealing.

Even if he did take ideas from Wheel of Time (something I doubt) there is still a line between outright plagiarism and being inspired by someone else and trying to pay homage to their work.

[Suttree]

Even if he did take ideas from Wheel of Time (something I doubt) there is still a line between outright plagiarism and being inspired by someone else and trying to pay homage to their work.

 Which is exactly why the quotes provided and his attitude towards RJ is rather telling(as well as the publication dates). There certainly was no "trying to pay homage" involved.

 

Look here is the point.  While many fantasy stories share universal myths and archetypes, SOT uses a number of quite specific items taken from the WoT that are not a dime a dozen in fantasy. It is the sheer number of those type of similarities, that causes people to quite rightly call foul.

 

That said there have been others as bad if not worse. For example the first Shannara book is one of the most cold blooded rip offs of LotR there is.  As the fantasy editor and critic Lin Carter once said:

 

 

"the single most cold-blooded, complete rip-off of another book that I have ever read".^[28] Elaborating on his disapproval of the book, Carter wrote that "Terry Brooks wasn't trying to imitate Tolkien's prose, just steal his story line and complete cast of characters, and [brooks] did it with such clumsiness and so heavy-handedly, that he virtually rubbed your nose in it

 

 Think Goodkind inspires such rage because of who he is as a person and his attitude towrads RJ as much as the similarities between the two works(not to mention his writing isn't really up to snuff).

Edited April 29, 2013 by Suttree

[Nolder]

Which is exactly why the quotes provided and his attitude towards RJ is rather telling(as well as the publication dates). There certainly was no "trying to pay homage" involved.

Really? I didn't find them telling at all. Goodkind claims to have never read Wheel of Time and RJ may or may not think that Goodkind is a liar.

You can draw your own conclusions but the answer is not definitive one way or another.

 

Look here is the point.  While many fantasies stories share universal myths and archetypes, SOT uses a number of quite specific items taken from the WoT that are not a dime a dozen in fantasy. It is the sheer number of those type of similarities, that causes people to quite rightly call foul.

 

I really can't think of one similarity between the two that couldn't be found in another series.

 

 

 Think Goodkind inspires such rage because of who he is as a person and the content of his series(which is verly poorly written as well).

Yeah, that's fine. I get that. I don't really care if people don't like him or if you think his series is poorly written or any of that.

I just don't see the "rip off" claim as a valid argument. Anything Goodkind "ripped off" can be found elsewhere in fantasy. RJ doesn't own the concept of wizards and dark lords and all that you know?

 

And anyway if there was a "rip off" of anyone it is quite clearly a rip off of Rand more so than Jordan.

Jordan was putting a new spin on fantasy and Sword of Truth never did that. What it did is poorly rehash Rands ideals and used them to beat against strawmen as Luckers said earlier in the thread.

[Suttree]

If he had never read WoT or had any knowlege of it how would he be "paying homage". No to mention he shows disdain for the genre as a whole.

 

As Terez said in a different thread:

 

Also, things like the fact that Goodkind insulted the rest of the fantasy genre while at the same time saying he doesn't read fantasy at all. He's oblivious.
 

 

As for the unique similarities that go beyond common tropes they have been well detailed in old threads. Just do a quick search and you will find them.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Suttree

[Nolder]

It's possible he lied so that crazy fans wouldn't accuse him of stealing. Or maybe he's not paying homage.

 

As for showing disdain for fantasy. I remember the guy who was working on the Hobbit films before PJ officially took over saying something similar about Tolkien.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything though. Like I said I don't care if people don't like him. I'm just saying I don't really see any evidence of ripping off RJ that isn't just a fantasy trope.

 

And I really wouldn't know where/what to search for the threads you're referring to.

I don't usually step outside the mafia and debates subforums so the larger part of DM is kind of a mystery land to me.

[Hagazussa]

Kind of ridiculous how many common fantasy tropes are being used as "proof" that Goodkind was stealing ideas from Jordan.

 

You don't like Goodkind as a person or you don't like his books that's cool and all but please don't accuse him of stealing.

Even if he did take ideas from Wheel of Time (something I doubt) there is still a line between outright plagiarism and being inspired by someone else and trying to pay homage to their work.

 

 

Well paying homage to Jordan, no, it is clear from Goodkind's words that he never respected Jordan in the least, that do not make him a ripoff though. The rest of the above I agree with completely.

 

Uhhmm no. Drag up some old threads where it is broken down in detail. It is rather telling, again as is the quotes Terez provided.

 

 

I disagree with you, I do not find the quotes telling, not if you have read any of the quotes by Goodkind on other things, the man is a first grade A hole and will speak derogatory about anyone, that do not mean he have stolen ideas from them, and also have a look at the Fremen and the Aiel for example, they have the exact same concept and the way they react to Rand/Paul is also exactly the same, that is much closer to one another than anything in SoT and WoT.

 

That said there have been others as bad if not worse. For example the first Shannara book is one of the most cold blooded rip offs of LotR there is.  As the fantasy editor and critic Lin Carter once said:

 

 

Yeah however I tend to read the books and make up my own opinion instead of listening to what the critics say and I do not really see that either, yes there are superficial similarities between Shannara and Lord of the Rrings, but it is not an ripoff, it is just that Shannara is so very, very generic, it is the fantasy version of plain sponge cake, it is bound to resemble any other cake out there since it is so generic.

 

Think Goodkind inspires such rage because of who he is as a person and his attitude towrads RJ as much as the similarities between the two works(not to mention his writing isn't really up to snuff).

 

 

I think Goodkind is a pretty good author, I really enjoy his books, well when he do not go on political rants, but the first seven or so books of Sword of Truth are excellent. To me however this rage from both camps seam a bit like the Sega/Nintendo fan was of the 1980s and 1990s to me, both series where in competition for a while, they deal with similar themes and basically while WoT have always have a foot ahead the situation is rather similar and just like with such console arguments there where fan rage on both sides.

 

I really can't think of one similarity between the two that couldn't be found in another series.

 

 

I agree, however I think the problem is the number of similar elements. The series the Banned and the Banished have gender separated magick which is an energy system and the main character is the reincarnation of some legendary mage and is destined to save the world, but everything else in the series is very different, so even if it have those two elements that do not make it to similar to WoT for example, The Riftwar Saga have the characters world invaded by an Ancient China inspired Empire in strange, brightly painted armor, but everything else is different, and so on and so on, all of these things taken by themselves can be coincidence but when to many elements are exactly the same then the work get to be very similar. I think it is the quantity people react to more than single elements, as the single elements are usually rather generic parts of fantasy literature. However I still do not think this makes Sword of Truth a ripoff of WoT.

[Nolder]

Yeah I don't know why the number of examples would make a difference if none of them are exclusive to both series (meaning one was obviously borrowed from the other).

[Suttree]

Yeah I don't know why the number of examples would make a difference if none of them are exclusive to both series (meaning one was obviously borrowed from the other).

As I said before:

 

While many fantasy stories share universal myths and archetypes, SOT uses a number of quite specific items taken from the WoT that are not a dime a dozen in fantasy.

 

As Luckers said in an old thread:

 

The issue here, at least for me, is number and nature of the correlations between The Sword of Truth and the Wheel of Time. Their position and purpose within the plot are just too similar to result from the idea that both men drew from the same mythologies.

 

Add in to that his answers about RJ and fantasy in general, well it paints a pretty clear picture.

Edited April 30, 2013 by Suttree

[Mr Ares]

 

Look here is the point.  While many fantasies stories share universal myths and archetypes, SOT uses a number of quite specific items taken from the WoT that are not a dime a dozen in fantasy. It is the sheer number of those type of similarities, that causes people to quite rightly call foul.

 

I really can't think of one similarity between the two that couldn't be found in another series.

 

When you have a similarity to another series, people probably aren't going to cry foul. When you have a similarity to any number of works in the same genre, then people might accuse you of cliché  but if they accuse you of plagiarism they will hardly be taken seriously. When you have a number of very specific similarities to another work, that looks suspicious. It's not a problem to share ten ideas with ten different works, but sharing ten ideas with the same work looks rather more dodgy. When you say X is similar to Dune, Y is similar to Earthsea, Z is similar to Lord of the Rings, and so on, that's not the same thing as saying X,Y and Z (not to mention A, B, C, D, E, F, and G) are all similarities between WoT and SoT. The case against SoT has been made before, and it is quite damning.

 

Of course, the damning problems with SoT are there even if you ignore any accusations of plagiarism. Even thinking about how bad it is makes my thing rise up so that I have to kick a six year old in the jaw. Of course, the book itself offers an explanation for its own success: "Wizard's First Rule: people are stupid."

[Nolder]

 

 

 

Yeah I don't know why the number of examples would make a difference if none of them are exclusive to both series (meaning one was obviously borrowed from the other).

As I said before:

 

While many fantasy stories share universal myths and archetypes, SOT uses a number of quite specific items taken from the WoT that are not a dime a dozen in fantasy.

As Luckers said in an old thread:

 

The issue here, at least for me, is number and nature of the correlations between The Sword of Truth and the Wheel of Time. Their position and purpose within the plot are just too similar to result from the idea that both men drew from the same mythologies.

Add in to that his answers about RJ and fantasy in general, well it paints a pretty clear picture.

Yeah but that doesn't really address my question of why the number of similarities would make a difference if the similarities are not unique to only Wheel of Time and Sword of Truth.

 

Look here is the point. While many fantasies stories share universal myths and archetypes, SOT uses a number of quite specific items taken from the WoT that are not a dime a dozen in fantasy. It is the sheer number of those type of similarities, that causes people to quite rightly call foul.

I really can't think of one similarity between the two that couldn't be found in another series.

When you have a similarity to another series, people probably aren't going to cry foul. When you have a similarity to any number of works in the same genre, then people might accuse you of cliché but if they accuse you of plagiarism they will hardly be taken seriously. When you have a number of very specific similarities to another work, that looks suspicious. It's not a problem to share ten ideas with ten different works, but sharing ten ideas with the same work looks rather more dodgy. When you say X is similar to Dune, Y is similar to Earthsea, Z is similar to Lord of the Rings, and so on, that's not the same thing as saying X,Y and Z (not to mention A, B, C, D, E, F, and G) are all similarities between WoT and SoT. The case against SoT has been made before, and it is quite damning.

Of course, the damning problems with SoT are there even if you ignore any accusations of plagiarism. Even thinking about how bad it is makes my thing rise up so that I have to kick a six year old in the jaw. Of course, the book itself offers an explanation for its own success: "Wizard's First Rule: people are stupid."

Yes but what I am saying is I don't think there are that many examples that WoT and SoT share that they don't also share with other series.

I'll take the example of Aes Sedai and the Sisters of the Light as I believe they are one of the examples that would be cited, correct me if I'm wrong though.
Yes, WoT and SoT share a school/bastion of magic using women. But coming to the conclusion that one is taken from the other is being far too hasty in my opinion.
Here are a few other examples of such things in other works:
1.Beauxbatons Academy of Magic from Harry Potter.
2.Miss Cackle's Academy for Witches from The Worst Witch.
3. Greenlaw College from Scholarly Magics.
4. Wyverly College from Old Kingdom.
5. Witch Girls has several schools for witches.
6. And I'd even go so far as to cite the women of Avalon that take Arthur after he is mortally wounded.

Maybe this isn't the example you would have chosen to use though and I'm open to hearing others. Edited April 30, 2013 by Nolder

[Mr Ares]

Yes but what I am saying is I don't think there are that many examples that WoT and SoT share that they don't also share with other series.

I'll take the example of Aes Sedai and the Sisters of the Light as I believe they are one of the examples that would be cited, correct me if I'm wrong though.

Yes, WoT and SoT share a school/bastion of magic using women. But coming to the conclusion that one is taken from the other is being far too hasty in my opinion.

Here are a few other examples of such things in other works:

1.Beauxbatons Academy of Magic from Harry Potter.

2.Miss Cackle's Academy for Witches from The Worst Witch.

3. Greenlaw College from Scholarly Magics.

4. Wyverly College from Old Kingdom.

5. Witch Girls has several schools for witches.

6. And I'd even go so far as to cite the women of Avalon that take Arthur after he is mortally wounded.

 

Maybe this isn't the example you would have chosen to use though and I'm open to hearing others.

Which misses the point of what was said - one similarity is nothing to write home about. The only similarities being generic fantasy tropes isn't either. How many other similarities are there between Harry Potter and WoT/SoT? Not counting generic fantasy tropes.

[Suttree]

 

 

Yes but what I am saying is I don't think there are that many examples that WoT and SoT share that they don't also share with other series.

I'll take the example of Aes Sedai and the Sisters of the Light as I believe they are one of the examples that would be cited, correct me if I'm wrong though.

Yes, WoT and SoT share a school/bastion of magic using women. But coming to the conclusion that one is taken from the other is being far too hasty in my opinion.

Here are a few other examples of such things in other works:

1.Beauxbatons Academy of Magic from Harry Potter.

2.Miss Cackle's Academy for Witches from The Worst Witch.

3. Greenlaw College from Scholarly Magics.

4. Wyverly College from Old Kingdom.

5. Witch Girls has several schools for witches.

6. And I'd even go so far as to cite the women of Avalon that take Arthur after he is mortally wounded.

 

Maybe this isn't the example you would have chosen to use though and I'm open to hearing others.

Which misses the point of what was said - one similarity is nothing to write home about. The only similarities being generic fantasy tropes isn't either. How many other similarities are there between Harry Potter and WoT/SoT? Not counting generic fantasy tropes.

On this one example I'm not familiar with any of those stories really but considering the above female magic groups again its not just the many similarities but also their position and use within the plot. Edited May 1, 2013 by Suttree

[Agitel]

It's not that WoT and SoT have some all-female magical institutions. It goes beyond that. Male wizards are derided/looked upon with fear/need to be controlled. There are no organized male institutions in the modern day. Plus you have the a'dam. Similar magic systems. The organization is similar. I'd dismiss all the examples you provided above. The only one that I'd give credit is that both of them have parallels with the Bene Gesserit of Dune. But then you look at the magic systems and what do you have? Two gender specific types of magic (Goodkind introduces a few variations later on in the series, true), and magic is performed by weaving together strands of elemental powers in a specific fashion. Let's not forget the secret group of magic users sworn to a Dark One that exists in both factions. Both organizations splinter. And again, it's how closely the two organizations parallel, not just that there's an all female institution.

 

Then there's the magic that stems from the Dark One/Underworld itself that most can't use.

 

Then there are collars that control magic users.

 

Then there are the parallels between the Seanchan and Imperial Order. Massive empires that forbid free use of magic and exert total domination over magic users and are invading and conquering the main setting.

 

Then there's the Blood of the Fold and the Children of the Light.

 

Then there's the ancient civilization that existed roughly 3,000 years ago where people worked magical wonders together that ended in a great and devastating magical war that also involved the creation of a lot of magical beasts to fight the war.

 

Then there's the most recent war that occurred twenty years ago that involved armies coming over the mountainous wall to the east and invading the primary setting, and if we want to go further, directly led to the necessary conditions for the protagonist's birth during that war.

 

Then there's the protagonist winning over the invading force in the most previous war to their own cause by becoming the leader of their respective groups (of which they are descended from through their fathers).

 

I mean, it's not that all of Jordan's ideas were the most original things ever. There's a number of stock fantasy tropes, and Jordan made fair use of them. The thing is, no author uses all fantasy tropes; no author uses the majority of potential tropes. They pick and choose some as they like to give their series a unique flavor. The thing about SoT is that Goodkind's choices follow Jordan's choices very closely. So close that a reader is hit not just once or twice but over and over again with the feeling that they've read it before, and they can point to a single source. The typical humble hero's beginning I can forgive (though the fact that they were both adopted and were raised by a single-father figure after their mother died early on in their childhood. . . ). That's almost a default for a lot of fantasy, and Jordan's received criticism for it as well.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Agitel

[Nolder]

Ares: I think you are missing my point rather than the other way around. I was just using an example to illustrate that the similarities between WoT and SoT are not unique to them and are actually shared across the genre. My point is that if they are not unique then why does the number of similarities matter? You can name any two random series and find dozens of tropes and plot devices they share.

 

Suttree: If you're using the same tropes it would follow that they are used generally in the same ways at the same times in a story. Prophecy for example usually comes early in a story, with bits and pieces sometimes becoming clearer as the story goes on until the end where it's made completely clear.

 

Agitel: See my argument above. You can provide thousands of examples and that isn't going to sway me unless you address the fact that if these things are not unique to just SoT and WoT (the vast majority are not) then why would it matter how many examples there are? A thousands bad examples does not make a good argument is what I'm saying.

[Agitel]

Suttree: If you're using the same tropes it would follow that they are used generally in the same ways at the same times in a story. Prophecy for example usually comes early in a story, with bits and pieces sometimes becoming clearer as the story goes on until the end where it's made completely clear.

 

Agitel: See my argument above. You can provide thousands of examples and that isn't going to sway me unless you address the fact that if these things are not unique to just SoT and WoT (the vast majority are not) then why would it matter how many examples there are? A thousands bad examples does not make a good argument is what I'm saying.

 

To what you said to Suttree. Come on, Nolder, we're talking about things far more specific than "OMG both of these fantasy stories have prophecies!" or even "OMG both of these fantasies have a hero's journey arc."

 

To what you said to me. We're not talking about direct parallels between two series, not direct parallels between one series and an entire genre. It's not that there are tropes commonly found and shared by fantasy, it's that SoT takes so many of its tropes directly from WoT and uses them in the same way. You don't say "Well you also see this element in this book, and this element in this book, and so many books use this . . ." It's that you say "Wow, you see so many of these tropes and devices in the Wheel of Time serving the same function."

Edited May 1, 2013 by Agitel

[Nolder]

But it doesn't take those tropes from WoT that's my point. WoT doesn't own those tropes, didn't create them. They are not unique to WoT.

 

If you can show me some things that are unique to just those two series then I'd give the argument some consideration but as far as I can think of they don't share any similarities that they don't also share with other series.

[Suttree]

But it doesn't take those tropes from WoT that's my point. WoT doesn't own those tropes, didn't create them. They are not unique to WoT.

 

 To use your example of the female magic users how many of those stories you listed also include scenarios where  "Male wizards are derided/looked upon with fear/need to be controlled. (&)There are no organized male institutions in the modern day." How many have devices like the a'dam and gender specific type magic that use woven flows of elements?

 

You are focusing on similarities(with just this alone there are far too many to be coincedence) and ignoring the "position and use within the plot" part.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Suttree

[Nolder]

Oh, my post that I made hours ago got ate

Cool story forum

 

Anyway to sum up what I posted before you haven't addressed my point about why the number of similarities between the two series matter when both series also share a large number of the same tropes with other series. It's not a matter of one ripping off the other it's that both are using common (and some uncommon) tropes that are also used by other authors before and after both series were published.

 

And yes I did address the "position and use within plot" argument.

Suttree: If you're using the same tropes it would follow that they are used generally in the same ways at the same times in a story. Prophecy for example usually comes early in a story, with bits and pieces sometimes becoming clearer as the story goes on until the end where it's made completely clear.

In other words tropes are used the way tropes are used. If you're using a certain trope it follows that the reasons and/or timing of that trope will be fairly consistent across series. That's what makes it a trope or cliche.

[Suttree]

In that case please reference other series in which that is the case concerning the similarities and how they are used in the same ways at the same time in the plot that we see in SoT and WoT. There certainly should be a substantial list if what you claim is true.

 

Keep in mind your first exampe with the female magic schools has already shown to be lacking.

[Nolder]

Prophecy.
 
Harry Potter

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies ..."

 
Sword of Truth

Of all there were, but a single one born of the magic to bring forth truth will remain alive when the shadow's threat is lifted. Therefore comes the greater darkness of the dead. For there to be a chance at life's bond, this one in white must be offered to her people, to bring their joy and good cheer. - Page 341

 
Wheel of Time

Yet one shall be born to face the Shadow,
born once more as he was born before,
and shall be born again, time without end.
The Dragon shall be Reborn,
and there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth at his rebirth.
In sackcloth and ashes shall he clothe the people,
and he shall break the world again by his coming,
tearing apart all ties that bind.
Like the unfettered dawn shall he blind us, and burn us,
yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle
and his blood shall give us the Light.
Let tears flow, O ye people of the world.
Weep for your salvation.

 

Orphan Rescue.

Rand - Wheel of Time

Olver - Wheel of Time

Richard - Sword of Truth

Eragon - Inheritance Cycle

Orik - Inheritance Cycle

Aragorn - Lord of the Rings

Harry Potter - Harry Potter

Neville Longbottom - Harry Potter

 

Religious Zealots.

Blood of the Fold - Sword of Truth

Children of the Light - Wheel of Time

Followers of R'hllor - A Song of Ice and Fire

Steel Ministry - Mistborn

Tal'Darim - Starcraft

(Granted the last two don't necessarily "fight evil")

 

Special/named Sword.

Callandor - Wheel of Time

Justice - Wheel of time

Sword of Truth - Sword of Truth

Brisingr - Inheritance Cycle

Zar'roc - Inheritance Cycle

Anduril/Narsil - Lord of the Rings

Sting - Lord of the Rings

Glamdring - Lord of the Rings

Orcrist - Lord of the Rings

Grond - Lord of the Rings

Excalibur - Arthurian Legend

Sword of Shannara - Sword of Shannara

Needle - A Song of Ice and Fire

Lion's Tooth - A Song of Ice and Fire

Longclaw - A Song of Ice and Fire

Ice - A Song of Ice and Fire

Oathkeeper - A Song of Ice and Fire

Sword of Gryffindor - Harry Potter

Twinkle - Drizzt series

Icingdeath - Drizzt series

 

Satisfied? I'm not going to spend hours thinking about tropes and different series and how they are used when I'm sure someone will just come back and accuse me of cherry picking anyway. Instead of me providing some comprehensive list of tropes for both series and other series those tropes are used in why don't you give me JUST ONE similarity that you think is unique to just the wheel of time and sword of truth series.

Also I don't see how the point was lacking as I didn't see any argument against it that was not "yeah, but look at all this other stuff".

[Suttree]

Recall from the start we said it's not about generic fantasy tropes. Most of the above so generic as to be beside the point and you know it. Leaving aside how flawed so many of those examples are and the jig you have to dance to make them fit from a plot perspective I am asking you to compare series using your original example with a female magic order and the following.

"Male wizards are derided/looked upon with fear/need to be controlled. (&)There are no organized male institutions in the modern day." How many have devices like the a'dam and gender specific type magic that use woven flows of elements?

Now how many series have those similarities along with the same position and use in the plot? This is just one example mind, there are numerous others that follow the same pattern. Interested to hear about all the other series out there you can find for this. Your initial point was shot down when it is clear how very different all those other female magic group examples are from the above. Most bare zero resemblance whatsoever to what we are discussing. Edited May 2, 2013 by Suttree

[Agitel]

Yeah, what Sutt says. We're not talking about generic fantasy tropes which both are guilty of. We are talking about incredibly specific things. And it's not just one or two, but many things that go beyond generic. Look at the detail in some of my comparisons on the previous page.

[Mr Ares]

Ares: I think you are missing my point rather than the other way around. I was just using an example to illustrate that the similarities between WoT and SoT are not unique to them and are actually shared across the genre. My point is that if they are not unique then why does the number of similarities matter? You can name any two random series and find dozens of tropes and plot devices they share.

Why would uniqueness matter? For example, lots of series have magic swords. Magic swords made of crystal, prophetically linked to the main character (not saying SoT has one, just using it as an example) are not a common fantasy trope, but finding two series which both use it wouldn't be anything much. But when you have a lot of those same, very specific similarities, and your counter refers only to the greatest of generalities, then one can't help but think that you're not addressing what people are saying. The Worst Witch? Harry Potter? Straying outside epic fantasy, here - same genre, different subgenre. And Harry Potter doesn't even have an all-female school. The argument people are using is that WoT and SoT have a higher than usual number of very specific similarities - not just things that are generic within the fantasy genre, not just one or two very similar things but a lot of very similar, non-generic things. This is true even if these ideas are not ideas RJ invented. All-female magic schools with significant political power are not ten a penny in fantasy. Even if there are others besides WoT and SoT, they're still uncommon. If that was the only such similarity, again, that would not be the problem. But when you have a lot of specific, shared ideas, things which aren't common to the genre as a whole, that fill the same roles in the plot, are used in the same way, then really it looks absurd to stick your fingers in your ears and say "lalala, I'm not listening", which is what your argument has amounted to. We could argue that Goodkind and RJ merely borrowed from the same sources, in the same ways, and generated their own unique twists and touches, in a purely coincidental way. But this is unlikely. More likely is that Goodkind copied from RJ. Plagiarism is, by its nature, difficult to define the parameters of, but there's no need to make it harder. There are similarities that go beyond the generic, and they are quite numerous. This is enough for us to be suspicious.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Mr Ares