From Light to Dark. From Dark to Light

[ONeill]

It takes 13 Fades and 13 Aes Sedai to turn someone to the shadow against their will. So could it be that there is a way of turning people back to the light, who wish to come back?? Or is their a way to turn someone to the light against their will???

 

Your thoughts....

[Gentled Ben]

I think that the kind of coercion you describe and the Light are mutually exclusive. I don't think that forcing a complete spiritual/philosophical turnaround on an unwilling candidate would be a light-based activity. However, it is probably possible, since Sheriam says that it's the ability to open up to the True Source that allows one to be opened up to "other things." Apparently, all that's required on behalf of the victim is the ability to channel.

 

There aren't any instances in the books of anyone being turned to the Light against their will, though, nor are there any musings, that I can recall, as to how such a thing might be done. I don't think that Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene even considered it when they had Moghedien collared, and I don't think it occured to Rand when he had Asmodean; he seemed satisfied with simply severing Asmodean's connection to the Dark One.

 

There is the saying that you can never walk so long in the shadow that you can't return to the Light though, and Ingtar certainly makes an effort to do just that, so I suppose that as far as going from Dark to Light is concerned, no forcing is necessary, just as someone can give in to their baser nature and selfish desires and descend into Shadow without being "turned."

[Luckers]

On the other hand the presense of the myrrdraal implies that the effect of the evil of the Dark One is a nessasary aspect in turning people... my guess is that the channelers merely fascilitate the infiltration of that evil into the one they wish to turn--likely through the capacity that allows them to link. I doubt the Light has access to an oposite force with which to influence people.

[Direwolf Jon]

I'm not sure that darkfriends can be turned back to the light. However, I think that if one person would be able to help in that it would be Verin. I think she may have some secret knowledge that might lead to the light being restored in some of the darkfriends and such. She knows some interesting things that many Aes Sedai don't. Two other Aes Sedai that might work with this would be Moiraine and Cadsuane. That could be the start of the circle.

[Guest Majsju]

Week 15 Question: When a channeler is forcibly turned to the Dark, is his/her former personality lost to eternity? Are they in a permanent state of mindless Compulsion? Furthermore, can a channeler forcibly turned to the Dark return to the Light unaided?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: They are not in a mindless state of Compulsion. Their former personality is twisted, the darker elements that everyone has to some degree elevated while what might be called the good elements are largely suppressed. I don't mean things like courage, which is useful even to villains, but they are unlikely to be very charitable, for example, and forget any altruistic impulses. Call it being turned into a mirror image of yourself in many ways. It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided. For one reason, by virtue of the twisting he or she had undergone, it is very unlikely that he or she would have any desire to do so.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

[Gentled Ben]

Maj quoted RJ, saying (in part):

 

It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided.

 

Hmmm...that almost begs the premise that aid could be extended to a candidate.

 

Luckers said:

On the other hand the presense of the myrrdraal implies that the effect of the evil of the Dark One is a nessasary aspect in turning people... my guess is that the channelers merely fascilitate the infiltration of that evil into the one they wish to turn--likely through the capacity that allows them to link. I doubt the Light has access to an oposite force with which to influence people.

 

I agree with Luckers' point. That being said, I wonder what kind of aid might be lent to someone who had been forcibly turned to the Dark and therefore had no interest in returning to the Light. Thoughts?

[Mystica]

*this is a copy/paste from a post of mine in another thread of this topic*

 

Returning to the light seems to me to be only possible if it is done voluntarily and based on a true and personal desire to do so.

I believe the secret to it is free will.

 

In the books this seems to be the case as well, as is demonstrated by the story of Ingtar in The Great Hunt when he confesses of being the one who let the enemie in Fal Dara to Rand.

(note here also the 'intent' and 'reason' for his actions)

He turned to darkness in despair, not because he enjoyed evil or doing evil.

He then makes the decision himself to redeam himself and making the ultimate sacrifice to allow Rand and the others to do what they had to. He did this of his own free will, despite Rand's objections, and in doing so already felt the grace of the light upon him.

 

Maybe all this doesn't make much sence, but that's my idea on it.

 

Having said that, I do not believe you càn turn anyone to the Light by force, because that would automatically undo the 'Free Will' aspect, which to me seems the ultimate ingredient to do so.

 

Forcing them to fight against the Dark, yes. Forcing them back into the Light, no.

[elteryon]

I agree with Mystica.

 

Ingtar was a self-proclaimed Darkfriend, a conscientious desicion on his part, not forced, not compelled. Well, maybe forced in a way by the circumstances as he saw them, but a willfull decision on his part anyway.

 

The act of turning back to the light is his alone. He seems not to be taken too deep into the depths of the Shadow, and this may also play a large role in his ability to walk in the light once more.

 

My first post, enough lurking in the shadows.

[Gentled Ben]

Returning to the light seems to me to be only possible if it is done voluntarily and based on a true and personal desire to do so.

 

Yet according to RJ,

It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided.

It must be possible to aid such a channeller or else he wouldn't have included the word "aided." He would simply have said that it would be unlikely and left it at that. Remember, he's talking about channelers who've been turned against their will and therefore, don't want to return to the light...

It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided. For one reason, by virtue of the twisting he or she had undergone, it is very unlikely that he or she would have any desire to do so.[/b]

 

If it were entirely a matter of freewill, he would have said something like, "Once they've been turned, they're goners, Man. They're never coming back to the Light." Since that's not what he said, I'm wondering what form(s) the aid he mentioned might take, which is pretty much the original question at the start of the topic thread, so I guess we've just gone in a circle. :?

[Mystica]

Ah, ok, now I understand your original question better. :) Sorry for the mix up.

 

Maybe I need to explain my thoughts a bit better and then move on to answering the topic.

 

I believe that Free Will is the determinating factor of belonging to either the Light or Darkness. Having said that, enslaving people to one side or the other (by forcing them to do/work/fight for that side) does not automatically make them 'belong' to that particular side.

I'll go even further: those doing evil under slavery of being forced to do so (eg. altering their mindset) cannot be held against their true self, as their true self is no longer in the picture at that time.

Remember, all the Forsaken 'chose' to belong to the Dark Side for their own personal and egotistical reasons.

 

Now on to your question: 'Can one be braught back to the Light who has been forced into Darkness?'.

I'd say 'yes' and indeed with 'aid'.

That 'aid' would feel to the enslaved as 'forced' in the way an addict undergoes rehab. But once freed from his/her enforced slavery, that person most likely will be more than thankful to have been rescued.

 

So I wouldn't exactly say that they are 'forced' back into the Light, rather than they were saved from their enslavement.

 

Again, not sure if this makes sence, but that's my 2 cents.