Egwene and the Tower

[Elan Tedronai]

Egwene a chameleon? lol. that's a really a jaundiced view. Egwene actually learned well under the auspices of the wiseones and incorporated that into her behvaiour. It is the reason why the wise ones have huge admiration for her inspite of her not being aiel in first place. It's also the reason why she managed to heal the tower in such a short space of time and become their leader.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I fully respect your position on Egwene, Elan, but I can't agree with it.

 

Egwene indeed was not Aiel, but she adopted their clothing and customs (Ji'e'toh) just for the time of her apprenticeship, leaving it all behind when summoned to Salidar. What was her point in following Ji'e'toh if she got rid of it in a moment after leaving the Wise Ones? Their respect was not given because of her mimicking of Aiel bahaviour, but rather because of their positive opinion of her qualities - strong will, a desire to learn and many talents. And still was weird IMO.

 

When I contrast her behaviour to Rand's, who-despite being of Aiel blood - refused to don cadin'sor and did not follow every Aiel custom e.g. when entering Cold Rocks Hold - I find it much more realistic to expect the Aiel to respect his honest and strong sense of identity coupled with respect for others rather than Egwene's willingness to adopt everything that brings her closer to achieving her goals, without any reflection or deeper understanding.

 

I don't question that she achieved great successes in the story. What I question is whether it was realistic for such a person to achieve them and I think it was not. And that is why I think she should have been written much better, so that the absolute admiration and obedience she gets from people who should normally be much wiser would be somehow justified. As it is, IMHO the scenes when e.g. an old Aes Sedai asks for Egwene's advice about said Aes Sedai's warder are simply ridiculous.

 

When still in doubt about Egwene being a chameleon, it is well to read the parts of EotW where Egwene is first shown next to Nynaeve and her chameleonic behaviour is obviously emphasised.

[Durinax]

I fully respect your position on Egwene, Elan, but I can't agree with it.

 

Egwene indeed was not Aiel, but she adopted their clothing and customs (Ji'e'toh) just for the time of her apprenticeship, leaving it all behind when summoned to Salidar. What was her point in following Ji'e'toh if she got rid of it in a moment after leaving the Wise Ones? Their respect was not given because of her mimicking of Aiel bahaviour, but rather because of their positive opinion of her qualities - strong will, a desire to learn and many talents. And still was weird IMO.

 

When I contrast her behaviour to Rand's, who-despite being of Aiel blood - refused to don cadin'sor and did not follow every Aiel custom e.g. when entering Cold Rocks Hold - I find it much more realistic to expect the Aiel to respect his honest and strong sense of identity coupled with respect for others rather than Egwene's willingness to adopt everything that brings her closer to achieving her goals, without any reflection or deeper understanding.

 

I don't question that she achieved great successes in the story. What I question is whether it was realistic for such a person to achieve them and I think it was not. And that is why I think she should have been written much better, so that the absolute admiration and obedience she gets from people who should normally be much wiser would be somehow justified. As it is, IMHO the scenes when e.g. an old Aes Sedai asks for Egwene's advice about said Aes Sedai's warder are simply ridiculous.

 

When still in doubt about Egwene being a chameleon, it is well to read the parts of EotW where Egwene is first shown next to Nynaeve and her chameleonic behaviour is obviously emphasised.

your refering to when mor and nyn are in teh same room at the inn in baerlon and she doesnt know which ones customs to follow right?

[Suttree]

Egwene indeed was not Aiel, but she adopted their clothing and customs (Ji'e'toh) just for the time of her apprenticeship, leaving it all behind when summoned to Salidar.

 

without any reflection or deeper understanding.

 

Although I agree with parts of your post I feel it's pretty unfair to say she had no deeper understanding of Ji'e'toh and Aiel culture. She most certainly didn't just leave it behind when summoned(she met her toh to the wise ones before leaving) and the whole embracing pain scenes in the WT came from those lessons she learned just to name a few examples.

[Guest PiotrekS]

your refering to when mor and nyn are in teh same room at the inn in baerlon and she doesnt know which ones customs to follow right?

 

That is even better! I was thinking about a scene earlier, in Two Rivers, when Egwene and Nynaeve meet Rand (and maybe Mat) and Nynaeve is looking disapprovingly at the boys and it is emphasised that Egwene is trying hard to look like a mirror image of Nynaeve.

 

Egwene indeed was not Aiel, but she adopted their clothing and customs (Ji'e'toh) just for the time of her apprenticeship, leaving it all behind when summoned to Salidar.

 

without any reflection or deeper understanding.

 

Although I agree with parts of your post I feel it's pretty unfair to say she had no deeper understanding of Ji'e'toh and Aiel culture. She most certainly didn't just leave it behind when summoned(she met her toh to the wise ones before leaving) and the whole embracing pain scenes in the WT came from those lessons she learned just to name a few examples.

 

I think she aquired the understanding in the process of living according to Ji'e'toh, but what I argue is that her decision to adopt these particular customs should be proceeded and spurred by deeper understanding and not only followed by it.

 

Of course she learned how to embrace pain, but it is more a by-product than the core of Ji'e'toh. My point is: when you pick a certain code of ethics and customs, you should do it not only because it is prevalent in your current environment. If you decide it is a right thing to do, you do it even after moving to a different place.

 

Therefore: if Egwene was serious about Ji'e'toh, she should stick to it even after leaving the Aiel. If she thought it was good but maybe not for other people than the Aiel, she should have adopted a reserved attitude similar to Rand's.

 

What she did instead was to immerse herself in Aiel code of honour just to gain Wise Ones' respect, and thus profit from the knowledge and influence they could give to her. After becoming Amyrlin, her code of ethics turned to be a "perfect Aes Sedai" set of rules instead, and she immersed herself in completely different culture.

 

She picked several systems of ethics and customs (Two Rivers Wisdom Apprentice- Aes Sedai - Wise One)not because of conscious judgement as to their relative value, but because it was helpful to her personal position in different environments.

 

The negative effects of this can be seen in ToM when the Wise Ones still think of Egwene as a person following their rules of honour and being their friend-but no, she's an Aes Sedai now and when old "friends" can't teach her anything new, her only goal for meeting with them is increasing WT's influence.

[sleepinghour]

When I contrast her behaviour to Rand's, who-despite being of Aiel blood - refused to don cadin'sor and did not follow every Aiel custom e.g. when entering Cold Rocks Hold - I find it much more realistic to expect the Aiel to respect his honest and strong sense of identity coupled with respect for others rather than Egwene's willingness to adopt everything that brings her closer to achieving her goals, without any reflection or deeper understanding.

Every group of people we've seen in the books, including the Aiel, have considered their own culture superior to everyone else's. So I don't think it's strange that Egwene's willingness to adopt their culture would be seen as a positive thing, while Aviendha is disgusted by herself for picking up wetlander habits (and very minor ones at that).

 

When still in doubt about Egwene being a chameleon, it is well to read the parts of EotW where Egwene is first shown next to Nynaeve and her chameleonic behaviour is obviously emphasised.

I don't know how people can say she isn't—it's one of her defining traits, for good or bad.

 

Egwene stood a few paces behind the Wisdom, watching intently. Of a height with Nynaeve, and with the same dark coloring, she could at that moment have been a reflection of Nynaeve's mood, arms crossed beneath her breasts, mouth tight with disapproval.

Egwene did not think she would ever understand Aiel. She was very much afraid she did not understand Rand anymore.

 

[...] "Have you no honor?" she demanded coldly. The four coarse-faced men who had been on the point of grabbing the skinny fellow blinked at her.

 

[...] "If you must face a man for what he says, face him one at a time, in honor. This is not battle; you shame yourselves to go four at one."

 

They stared at her as if she were mad, and slowly her face reddened. She hoped they thought it anger. Not how dare you pick on someone weaker, but how dare you not let him fight you one by one? She had just lectured them as if they followed ji'e'toh. Of course, if they did, there would have been no need to lecture.

 

It was true; the skinny man had used her interference to vanish. She felt a flash of contempt. Running because he feared to face four. How could he bear the shame? Light, she was doing it again.

[Mandro]

I fully respect your position on Egwene, Elan, but I can't agree with it.

 

Egwene indeed was not Aiel, but she adopted their clothing and customs (Ji'e'toh) just for the time of her apprenticeship, leaving it all behind when summoned to Salidar. What was her point in following Ji'e'toh if she got rid of it in a moment after leaving the Wise Ones? Their respect was not given because of her mimicking of Aiel bahaviour, but rather because of their positive opinion of her qualities - strong will, a desire to learn and many talents. And still was weird IMO.

 

When I contrast her behaviour to Rand's, who-despite being of Aiel blood - refused to don cadin'sor and did not follow every Aiel custom e.g. when entering Cold Rocks Hold - I find it much more realistic to expect the Aiel to respect his honest and strong sense of identity coupled with respect for others rather than Egwene's willingness to adopt everything that brings her closer to achieving her goals, without any reflection or deeper understanding.

 

I don't question that she achieved great successes in the story. What I question is whether it was realistic for such a person to achieve them and I think it was not. And that is why I think she should have been written much better, so that the absolute admiration and obedience she gets from people who should normally be much wiser would be somehow justified. As it is, IMHO the scenes when e.g. an old Aes Sedai asks for Egwene's advice about said Aes Sedai's warder are simply ridiculous.

 

When still in doubt about Egwene being a chameleon, it is well to read the parts of EotW where Egwene is first shown next to Nynaeve and her chameleonic behaviour is obviously emphasised.

 

(I should have cut down the quote, I'm sorry.)

 

As for the observation about egwene next to nynaeve, that's a good point, and something I was trying to impart with my "Egwene is the fat girl who lost wait and became one of the plastics" thing in another thread. Egwene wanted to be nynaeve, then she wanted to be moiraine, then she wanted to be Amys. Egwene has no identity, which explains why she likes the spineless Gawyn, who also has no identity since he is a serial traitor.

[ranjitb]

By asking the question "Why is Egwene so loyal to the tower ?" I think we are approaching the issue backwards. If we think back to the test for "Accepted", we see that the only consideration for passing is loyalty and devotion to the Tower above all else. Siuan Sanche makes this explicit after Nynaeve barely manages to pass hers.

 

Which is to say, it's not surprising that the tower is full of women who hold their loyalty to "AS" above all else, since they were selected to have that nature. Especially someone like Egwene who is (relatively) inexperienced, and has spent most of her time after the accepted test being immersed into AS politics. Someone like Cadsuane on the other hand has had hundreds of years travelling around, doing god knows what, to have let some of the White Tower sheen come off.

[HighWiredSith]

All the other Aes Sedai took those same oaths yet don't appear a fraction as dedicated to the idyllic image of the White Tower. Egwene functions as if she's privy to some understanding or appreciation all of the other sisters fail to grasp. I can't help but again bring up the fact that Rand, Perrin, and Matt all experience this same type of uncharacteristic devotion/skill/ability but their is the product of some external catalyst (wolves/ancient heroes/Lews Therin). Egwene's devotion and how she's managed to turn that absolute, to-the-death devotion into a process for reuniting the White Tower just doesn't make good sense in the context of all the other main characters.

[randsc]

You live in an isolated village surrounded by farms, and spend your day working in your family's inn. The life to which you are destined bores you. You desire adventure, excitement and affirmation.

 

There exists a mysterious sect of people, gifted with supernatural power, who have been manipulating the peoples of the world for centuries. Causing the nations to dance like puppets on a string.

 

And then a representative of that group approaches you. Tells you that you have also been gifted with supernatural power. Very gifted; you might be one of the strongest in centuries. You are invited to join them.

 

Oh, and that low-level but persistent gender chauvinism you have always felt? They're totally OK with it. Encourage it, in fact.

 

Human nature being what it is, a person presented with this choice is likely to take one of two paths. That person will become that sect's most enthusiastic adherent. Or its' most dedicated opponent. Egwene chose the former.

[Guest PiotrekS]

All the other Aes Sedai took those same oaths yet don't appear a fraction as dedicated to the idyllic image of the White Tower. Egwene functions as if she's privy to some understanding or appreciation all of the other sisters fail to grasp. I can't help but again bring up the fact that Rand, Perrin, and Matt all experience this same type of uncharacteristic devotion/skill/ability but their is the product of some external catalyst (wolves/ancient heroes/Lews Therin). Egwene's devotion and how she's managed to turn that absolute, to-the-death devotion into a process for reuniting the White Tower just doesn't make good sense in the context of all the other main characters.

 

It is a valid point.

 

I think that RJ wanted to have Egwene as Rand's counterpart on the Light side, but failed to realistically build and develop her character, also because she lacked any of the "special powers" the three boys were given.

 

She gets ejected into immeasurable heights of power and authority without almost any plausible explanation. Well, we get "She is strong in the Power, smart and strong-willed". Like almost every other main female protagonist.

 

It would make much more sense if she was hearing Latra Posae's voice in her head. And if she was a female Dragon

 

So, for me, Egwene is unfortunately an example of bad, impausible writing. It could happen even to the great author in a series that is so huge and complicated.

[HighWiredSith]

Rand and Perrin and in a sense, even Matt, have the same sort of unmoving stubbornness but in the male characters it's seen as a liability, a refusal to accept wiser and more mature advise in favor, often, of some misguided sense of honor. Their motivation is their devotion their own dignity and honor, an attempt to preserve who they are regardless of the monumental circumstances to which they are subjected. I would expect the same devotion in Egwene and yet she seems to have very literally done the opposite, to have given up her Two Rivers self, any devotion or obligation she might have had given up and in its place this uncanny and undying devotion to not just the Aes Sedai but this perfected image of the White Tower, of the order itself, that certainly did not exist during Egwene's couple of months as a novice and one might argue, never existed at all. Where did this ideal come from? No other sister, from Moiraine and Suian Sanche to Elaida to Cadsuane and even Verrin seem to function in reverence to this ideal. So where did it come from? Why suffer so much and risk your very life to restore an ideal that no one else shares and you've never known?