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Into the heart he thrusts his sword...


herid
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in TSR CH21 Rand mentioned that he left Callandor in Tear to fulfill this prophecy

 

"Into the heart he thrusts his sword,

into the heart, to hold their hearts.

Who draws it out shall follow after,

What hand can grasp that fearful blade?"

 

It's commonly assumed that it was fully fulfilled by Narishma drawing Callandor later to bring it to Rand (tPoD, Ch 21). This has always bothered me greatly. First of all, Rand did it on purpose trying to force the fulfillment of the prophecy (which is a bad idea) and he rather smugly boasts about it (which is a bad sign too). And I certainly find the fulfillment of the prophecy by Narishma fetching Callandor for Rand supremely unsatisfying. I suspect this is a wrong interpretation and something completely different might be involved. I have two loony theories to offer.

 

1. Narishma told Rand that he was almost killed trying to retrieve Callandor

 

Springing from the cot, Rand snatched the bundle before Narishma could proffer it. “Did anyone see you?” he demanded. “What took you so long? I expected you last night!”

 

“It took a while to figure out what I had to do,” Narishma replied in a flat voice. “You didn’t tell me everything. You nearly killed me.”

 

That was ridiculous. Rand had told him everything he needed to know. He was sure of it. There was no point to trusting the man as far as he had, only to have him die and ruin everything. Carefully he tucked the bundle beneath his cot.

-tPoD, Ch 21

this is really fishy. it definitely looks like someone tampered with Rand's wards on Callandor. who? one of the Forsaken clearly. they'd have to be fools not to investigate Callandor just sitting there in the Stone after Rand left.

it could be any one of them but I would bet on Moridin more than the others. Terez suggested in one of her articles that Moridin likely got out of Finn-land with Lanfear/Cyndane via the ter'angreal gateway in Tear which was destroyed in the process. so he was around and presumably got around the wards Rand set in the Hold. so we have a couple of instances of someone getting past Rand's wards. I don't know exactly how Moridin could have done it. He is a Forsaken after all. Terez also suggests that his link with Rand might have played a part. when Rand hides Callandor near Far Madding he mentions that nobody else, not even another channeler would see the ward on it. but maybe Moridin could by virtue of the link. anyway, I admit this is the weakest part of the argument. But if Moridin could do that then he could have actually taken Callandor out and then put it back in along with some extra nasty surprises. Then he would be the one who drew Callandor after Rand and not Narishma.

 

This would be in keeping with the reference to Callandor as "that fearful blade". It's also referred to as a "blade of ruin" elsewhere as Min told Rand in ToM. and then she saw a viewing about Callandor strongly indicating that it will be used by the dark side in the Last Battle. Moridin seems to be primed for that task.

 

2. This one is even more loony. maybe the whole thing is completely wrong and the prophecy refers to something else altogether. There is a meeting coming up at FOM where Peace of the Dragon will be made and Rand's sword Justice will play a central role. what if this prophecy talks of Justice and Rand using it at the meeting in some symbolic way to tie the participants to the agreement they make there ("to hold their hearts"). Don't know who'd draw it out after that. could be Tuon as some have suggested that she should end up with Justice. Or it could just remain wherever Rand places for a long time it as a symbol of the agreement.

 

I admit this second one is even less likely that the first because Rand is supposed to thrust his sword "into the heart" and because it's referred to as a "fearful blade". that last one would seem to strongly indicate Callandor.

Edited by herid
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It's also referred to as a "blade of ruin" elsewhere as Min told Rand in ToM. and then she saw a viewing about Callandor strongly indicating that it will be used by the dark side in the Last Battle. Moridin seems to be primed for that task.

 

 

 

...um, what?

where was any of this in the books?

 

Is it from TOM chapter 25:

Dark clouds pushed away by the sunlight's warmth. Rand, a brilliant white sword held in his hand, wielded against one of black, held by a faceless darkness.

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"Into the heart he thrusts his sword,

into the heart, to hold their hearts.

Who draws it out shall follow after,

What hand can grasp that fearful blade?"

 

Can't help it, but when I first read this, I was thinking about 'sheeting the sword'.

 

And if Rand or Morridin was to stab the other in the chest with Callandor, how about that? and it's quite obvious the other one will follow soon after. They'll both die at TG.

'Into the heart, to hold their hearts' could than mean he took one for the team, as in: He will sacrifice himself and in return he'll demand the Dragons peace. (thought I already read that somewhere around DM)

 

anyway, just an opinion, no fancy theory or anything - sorry for that :happy: .

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When Ishamel was killed in TDR, it was by being stabbed through the chest with Callandor, was it not?

 

Would be interesting if, as Arc suggested, either Rand or Morridin stabs the other in the chest with Callandor during their final confrontation, either Morridin as a 'Take that, you did it to me' or Rand as a 'Now to finish the job'.

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It's also referred to as a "blade of ruin" elsewhere as Min told Rand in ToM. and then she saw a viewing about Callandor strongly indicating that it will be used by the dark side in the Last Battle. Moridin seems to be primed for that task.

 

 

 

...um, what?

where was any of this in the books?

 

Is it from TOM chapter 25:

Dark clouds pushed away by the sunlight's warmth. Rand, a brilliant white sword held in his hand, wielded against one of black, held by a faceless darkness.

the LB will be a prolonged affair. Rand will likely use Callandor (maybe even more than once) but that is not to say that nobody else will use it beside him. Rand is supposed to die once before the LB is over and the event seems to be closely linked to Callandor. the viewing that I meant was of Callandor in a black hand which seemed to be made of onyx (ToM, Ch 51). unless Rand gets an artificial limb that would seem to me to indicate some baddie using Callandor.

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I think Narishma is the one who follows after, but that he has yet to actually 'follow after'--mostly because I don't really think Narishma has done anything yet which could be termed 'following after'.

 

Possibly Narishma takes up Callandor following Rand's death and finishes something for him--not necessarily the sealing of the bore, just something Rand was trying to achieve. In this way Narishma would 'follow after'.

 

Side point which may have no worth: note that in ToM Min sees a hand of onyx holding Callandor--at first I considered it likely that this referred to Moridin, or perhaps Rand in Moridin's body following a bodyswap--the onyx being not so much a reference to colour, but rather spiritual tainting (and I know people have theories about Rand creating a new hand for himself, and so forth)--but thinking about it--Narishma has dark skin.

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"Into the heart he thrusts his sword,

into the heart, to hold their hearts.

Who draws it out shall follow after,

What hand can grasp that fearful blade?"

 

Can't help it, but when I first read this, I was thinking about 'sheathing the sword'.

Yeah, I also thought of that. Even though Rand thought of it when he fought Ishamael at Falme, I have been thinking for a while that it will have a more significant fulfillment in the end. But I am still thinking it is more likely that this refers to Justice than Callandor.

 

And if Rand or Morridin was to stab the other in the chest with Callandor, how about that?

That happened at the end of TDR, and I think that scene is a possible fulfillment of 'light is held before the infinite maw, and all that he is can be seized'.

 

and it's quite obvious the other one will follow soon after. They'll both die at TG.

Min says one will die but not the other. Not that the other can't die later...this is just the foretold outcome of their merge.

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I think Narishma is the one who follows after, but that he has yet to actually 'follow after'--mostly because I don't really think Narishma has done anything yet which could be termed 'following after'.

 

Possibly Narishma takes up Callandor following Rand's death and finishes something for him--not necessarily the sealing of the bore, just something Rand was trying to achieve. In this way Narishma would 'follow after'.

this might be a possibility but something bothers me about such outcome. Narishma has consistently remained a very minor character. he hasn't done anything special so far apart from fetching Callandor for Rand. it would be pretty strange if such underdeveloped character all of a sudden sprung to huge prominence. of course Alivia is a minor character too and she is supposed to be important so who knows.

 

Side point which may have no worth: note that in ToM Min sees a hand of onyx holding Callandor--at first I considered it likely that this referred to Moridin, or perhaps Rand in Moridin's body following a bodyswap--the onyx being not so much a reference to colour, but rather spiritual tainting (and I know people have theories about Rand creating a new hand for himself, and so forth)--but thinking about it--Narishma has dark skin.

I don't think his hand is dark enough to be confused with a hand made of onyx. the only reference to his skin color I can find is from KoD Ch 23, where he is described as a sun-dark boy. are there are more references to it? but your remark does bring to mind Egwene's dream of a dark young man holding a brightly shining object in his hand (aCoS, Ch 10).

Edited by herid
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this might be a possibility but something bothers me about such outcome. Narishma has consistently remained a very minor character. he hasn't done anything special so far apart from fetching Callandor for Rand. it would be pretty strange if such underdeveloped character all of a sudden sprung to huge prominence. of course Alivia is a minor character too and she is supposed to be important so who knows.

 

I don't think he's that minor--after all he was singled out when he first appeared by Taim specifically. The man even came to Caemlyn just to tell Rand that Narishma existed (and, I suppose, to 'save' Rand from the Grey Man, but even so, Narishma was highlighted).

 

Since then he's not just fetched Callandor and used it, he was also the one to approach the Rebels, to face down the Aes Sedai officially on behalf of the Asha'men and dead Eben, and to lead to the ousting of Halima. He's been around for a fair while.

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"Into the heart he thrusts his sword,

into the heart, to hold their hearts.

Who draws it out shall follow after,

What hand can grasp that fearful blade?"

 

Can't help it, but when I first read this, I was thinking about 'sheathing the sword'.

Yeah, I also thought of that. Even though Rand thought of it when he fought Ishamael at Falme, I have been thinking for a while that it will have a more significant fulfillment in the end. But I am still thinking it is more likely that this refers to Justice than Callandor.

 

 

how do you interpret the "fearful blade" part then? Min said that Callandor is very often called that in the prophecies. presumably, that means that there are many more examples of this in the prophecies and in those instances the connection to Callandor is more clear or even explicit. as I mentioned this is the part I find the hardest to reconcile with it being Justice.

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"Into the heart he thrusts his sword,

into the heart, to hold their hearts.

Who draws it out shall follow after,

What hand can grasp that fearful blade?"

 

Can't help it, but when I first read this, I was thinking about 'sheathing the sword'.

Yeah, I also thought of that. Even though Rand thought of it when he fought Ishamael at Falme, I have been thinking for a while that it will have a more significant fulfillment in the end. But I am still thinking it is more likely that this refers to Justice than Callandor.

 

 

how do you interpret the "fearful blade" part then? Min said that Callandor is very often called that in the prophecies.

Yet she hasn't provided even one example where it's made clear that the blade is Callandor.

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"Into the heart he thrusts his sword,

into the heart, to hold their hearts.

Who draws it out shall follow after,

What hand can grasp that fearful blade?"

 

Can't help it, but when I first read this, I was thinking about 'sheathing the sword'.

Yeah, I also thought of that. Even though Rand thought of it when he fought Ishamael at Falme, I have been thinking for a while that it will have a more significant fulfillment in the end. But I am still thinking it is more likely that this refers to Justice than Callandor.

 

 

how do you interpret the "fearful blade" part then? Min said that Callandor is very often called that in the prophecies.

Yet she hasn't provided even one example where it's made clear that the blade is Callandor.

we are only supposed to see a small part of all the prophecies which according to RJ would comprise some 300-400 pages. a reference like Min uses is a natural way to deal with the problem and practically speaking we have to take her word on this. otherwise we have to assume that she is wrong or is misinterpreting a number of unknown prophecies that we never saw and never will ( there is no way Min or anybody else in the story will list a bunch of prophecies referring to a "fearful blade"). this would be an extremely awkward plot device. I don't see BS doing anything like that.

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we are only supposed to see a small part of all the prophecies which according to RJ would comprise some 300-400 pages. a reference like Min uses is a natural way to deal with the problem and practically speaking we have to take her word on this.

I disagree completely. Have you ever seen

? They could have just as easily shown us one prophecy that makes it clear the blade in question is Callandor. The fact that they chose not to is part of what makes me suspicious.
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this is really fishy. it definitely looks like someone tampered with Rand's wards on Callandor. who? one of the Forsaken clearly. they'd have to be fools not to investigate Callandor just sitting there in the Stone after Rand left.

it could be any one of them but I would bet on Moridin more than the others. Terez suggested in one of her articles that Moridin likely got out of Finn-land with Lanfear/Cyndane via the ter'angreal gateway in Tear which was destroyed in the process. so he was around and presumably got around the wards Rand set in the Hold. so we have a couple of instances of someone getting past Rand's wards. I don't know exactly how Moridin could have done it. He is a Forsaken after all. Terez also suggests that his link with Rand might have played a part. when Rand hides Callandor near Far Madding he mentions that nobody else, not even another channeler would see the ward on it. but maybe Moridin could by virtue of the link. anyway, I admit this is the weakest part of the argument. But if Moridin could do that then he could have actually taken Callandor out and then put it back in along with some extra nasty surprises. Then he would be the one who drew Callandor after Rand and not Narishma.

 

Honestly, I'm starting to feel a little bit insane, because I feel 90% sure that Sammael mentioned leaving a nasty surprise for Rand in regards to Callandor. I don't have access to the books at the moment, though, so I can't check.

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we are only supposed to see a small part of all the prophecies which according to RJ would comprise some 300-400 pages. a reference like Min uses is a natural way to deal with the problem and practically speaking we have to take her word on this.

I disagree completely. Have you ever seen

? They could have just as easily shown us one prophecy that makes it clear the blade in question is Callandor. The fact that they chose not to is part of what makes me suspicious.

I haven't seen the clip but I have seen the transcript of it in the interview database. I see your point but I still think that this case is different. the case such as mentioned in that clip does not rely on any specific piece of evidence. we simply have some characters stating something which they believe to be true. no evidence to back up their claimed is mentioned. in our case we have many mysterious references to a "fearful blade" in the prophecies which we never saw and never will see. I think it would be a pretty dirty trick if we are later told that Min was just misinterpreting all those references.

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I agree the prophecy seemed unfulfilled, but I figure the "who pulls it out shall follow after" means later in time, probably after the last battle once the sword has been used in what ever way (which must include thrusting it into 'a' heart) is needed. Who pulls it out might be reawakening 'evil', so fearful blade. Or not :biggrin:

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For myself, I thought that Justice was just a peudo-cameo by Brandon, a way to work in the sword he was gifted with by Harriet when he took over the project. I don't think it has any real plot-based significance.

wait, are you saying you don't believe that Justice will play an important role in the Peace of the Dragon?! I certainly disagree with that. I'm sure it will be central there and also in his dealing with the Seanchan (the two might happen at the same time of course). and the more I think about it the more I'm inclined to believe that Terez may be right and Rand will actually give it to Tuon. it's even explicitly mentioned in the scene of their first meeting. he touches it on the way but then he reverts to his paranoid self, forgets the sword and grabs the access key instead.

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It would be ridiculous to introduce Hawkwing's sword if it wasn't important in some way. If Brandon wanted to work his sword into the plot he could have made it a relatively unimportant sword. More likely, Harriet gave him that sword because it most resembled Justice, not the other way around.

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It's not the size of the tidbit, it's the developmental hinge in which you throw it in?

 

Personal bet time, methinks. If Justice plays some sort of important role in terms of plot development I'll buy you dinner at DragonCon 2012. If its just a sword Rand has, or something people note with wonder by don't really do anything about or because of it, the reverse?

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It's not the size of the tidbit, it's the developmental hinge in which you throw it in?

 

Personal bet time, methinks. If Justice plays some sort of important role in terms of plot development I'll buy you dinner at DragonCon 2012. If its just a sword Rand has, or something people note with wonder by don't really do anything about or because of it, the reverse?

lol, I dunno if I will be able to afford dinner. But since I'm not going to lose, deal. :biggrin: Or we can make it a drink if you like. :wink:

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