The Lews Therin Voice Effect

[Varcolac]

While "guesting" the forums, I had a thought. I'm not quite sure if this is a repost or not as I can't possibly read everything on the forums in a night. So sorry if it is. Seriously.

 

There are numerous occasions where Lews Therin asks for release from the voice within HIS mind. This leads to the question, "Does LT think that Rand's mind is his own, or is it possible that the 'Wheel' is allowing some overlap between times and both characters hear each other's thoughts between times?"

 

Is this a telepathic link that connects similar souls between times?

 

If the link between times explaination is true why can't Rand hear the other dragons thoughts? Those after Lews, but before himself? Lews apparently can't hear them either because he only refers to one voice. Can it be that the two are set apart? Lews being the first Dragon and Rand being the last? Meaning a final change in the wheels overall structure?

 

Or, as its 5 AM, did I miss something in the books that rips this idea to threads?

[Luckers]

Well the dialogue between them indicates both are aware of the present. LTT observes incidenced in Rand's lift, and comments on them directly in the present tense. All knowledge of LTT's life on the other hand comes to him in the form of memories. Thoughts of LTT's that have drifted accross.

 

But certainly LTT seems to think of himself as being the real one, and Rand being the voice in HIS head. But then, LTT is insane.

 

Also some of the references of LTT speaking of a presense in his head are referring to Moridin, not Rand.

[liatildina]

LTT also physically grabs control of Rand in the present time. Rand is always wary now of Lewis taking control of the source and not being able to get it back from him. After Lewis creates Dragonmount and then winks out where did he go, was it in the pattern that he is to come back and help the next Dragon? Maybe that's why Rand hears only the voice lf LTT, because Rand is the true Dragon Reborn and he shares a soul with the last true Dragon. If LTT was not insane imagine what a plus having him as a mentor would be for Rand. Kind of like what Mat carries around, all that great knowledge that he puts into play when needed. As it is there have been times when LTT comes in handy, those deathgates were beyond helpful.

 

Knowing that Rand sits on the abyss of insanity, does it make him stay this side of sane by constantly hearing LTT? Rand is constantly trying to keep himself in check, keep himself sane, because he shares his mind with an insane guest. Of all the abuse Rand takes from being the Dragon Reborn that silent struggle he has with LTT has got to be one of his greatest battles.

[Varcolac]

Weren't there many other dragons in between? Or was the Rhuidean Time Jump just showing other "worlds" like the portal stones? Like other possiblities.

 

I'm referring to the long chapter where you keep seeing "I win again, Lews Therin" from the DO.

[Lukys Kinch]

The Rhuidean ter'angreal was showing Rand his ancestors going back to the Breaking of the World so that he could see the truth about what the Aiel once were. Those weren't Dragons that he was seeing or seeing things through. It is a way of testing men and women to see whether they are strong enough to handle the truth and be able to lead their people as it is usually used by Wise Ones and men attempting to become clan chiefs.

 

As for the portal stone event, Rand was seeing different ways his own life could have been played out if things had been slightly different.

[drakhon]

LTT also physically grabs control of Rand in the present time. Rand is always wary now of Lewis taking control of the source and not being able to get it back from him. After Lewis creates Dragonmount and then winks out where did he go, was it in the pattern that he is to come back and help the next Dragon? Maybe that's why Rand hears only the voice lf LTT, because Rand is the true Dragon Reborn and he shares a soul with the last true Dragon. If LTT was not insane imagine what a plus having him as a mentor would be for Rand. Kind of like what Mat carries around, all that great knowledge that he puts into play when needed. As it is there have been times when LTT comes in handy, those deathgates were beyond helpful.

 

Lews Therin killed himself and created Dragonmount in the process. He and Rand have the same soul. Normally when a soul bound to the Wheel (Heroes of the Horn, basically) is reborn there are barriers between the current consciousness and the memories of past lives. Most never know. The Taint has thinned the barrier that blocked Lews Therin's memories from Rand's mind.

 

My personal opinion is that the Lews Therin in Rand's head is not a separate consciousness but a construct created by Rand's mind to deal with the influx of memories because Rand would not accept that he is who he is. The early stages were very similar to what Mat experienced after the memories were implanted into him. Mat figured out where they came from and didn't have the problem of denial, though.

 

When "Lews Therin" tries to seize control of saidin, Rand is waging a mental battle with himself. Note that LT never had physical control of Rand's body and in fact wondered why he couldn't move "his" hands.

[Gentled Ben]

That's not what Semirhage indicated when she explained Rand's insanity, although of course, she could be lying. If, however, LTT is a construct, how did he come up with those awesome weaves? Rand didn't know those until he saw them. He "remembered" them. They were Lews Therin's weaves, not his. Same thing during his duel with Sammael. Sammael busts out with some kind of fire weave (don't have the books with me), and Rand "remembers" the name of the previously unknown weave, and copies it. He "remembered" it because it, too, was a weave with which Lews Therin was familiar.

 

LTT in his head is real. LTT doesn't control Rand's body because it's Rand's body; LTT is just the voice in it's head. I think it's freaky enough that he could seize saidin, but then, seizing saidin doesn't require control of hands, it seems to be all in the mind. The damane can channel without their hands, tongues, etc. as indicated by Renna's comments in TGH, so I don't see why LTT couldn't channel without being able to lift "his" hands. All he needs is a mind to achieve the void and eyes to see what he's weaving.

 

 

They are the same soul. One soul, two lives, which SHOULD remain completely separate. Rand shouldn't be aware of LTT, and LTT shouldn't have any awareness at all; that personality should have ceased to exist when it died on DM. For some reason (you blame the taint, and I see no reason to argue that), his (LTT) personality did NOT cease to exist, and instead, CO-EXISTS with Rand's, which Semi called "insane." That doesn't mean it isn't real; just wrong.

[Guest Majsju]

The damane can channel without their hands, tongues, etc. as indicated by Renna's comments in TGH, so I don't see why LTT couldn't channel without being able to lift "his" hands. All he needs is a mind to achieve the void and eyes to see what he's weaving.

 

LTT needs the hands for one specific weave, he is perfectly able to weave other things while he's "convincing" Rand to lift his hands.

[Gentled Ben]

Ah, yeah, I get that, Maj, but thanks. My post wasn't very well-thought out or clear. I was responding to what I thought was an argument that LTT isn't real because he couldn't move his hands; I wasn't really wondering why he needed them for the Arrows of Fire weave.

 

Of course, he probably doesn't, technically, need his hands for that weave, or at least, he WOULDN"T, if he hadn't learned it that way. I'm sure it's like the throwing motion that some Aes Sedai make when weaving fireballs. Still, if that's how he learned it, then,.... "My hands! My Hands!" :)

[Guest Majsju]

Well, the arrows does seem like the kind of weave that, maybe not requires hands, but at least doesn't work very well without using the hands to direct the arrows. Compare them to the other weaves, who are more along the lines of general destruction, while the arrows are used to seek out specific targets.

 

But if you want to use that incident as proof for LTT being real, I suggest going back a few pages, when Rand sees moridin clearly for the first time. LTT makes a comment about "their so-called True Power", something Rand could not possibly have any knowledge about. And if some weaves could be explained about bits of memories drifting up randomly, this is a direct response to something Rand experiences.

[Gentled Ben]

Oh, hands would be useful for such a weave, to be sure, but still, I don't think they would be technically necessary. Channeling still seems to be more a psychic function than a physical one. Nevertheless, if I could channel and knew that weave, I would certainly use my hands to direct it. It would just be the natural thing to do, which I'm sure, is why LTT does (did) it that way.

 

Yeah, there are better points to support my argument than the ones I used, and I thank you for bringing one of them up.

[ONeill]

It's always possible that what your saying is correct Varcolac. I myself think that it's a really sound theory.

 

It could be something that the creator did as he knew that Rand would need Lews Therin Teleman to face the Dark One. That assuming that the creator is all knowing. It would also make sense if the only way for LTT to seal the bore, is through something that he experences form Rands life.

 

Now even if LTT is crazy and the theory is wrong; if you were Rand wouldn't you want to be able to talk the oringal Dragon. To learn what you can in those brief moments when he has sane periods. Even when LTT is going off and Rand can't make any sense of him, I'm sure he learns little bits and pieces.

[Gentled Ben]

Ah, yes...the original topic. :oops:

 

I just always figured that there hadn't BEEN any Dragon incarnations between Lews Therin and Rand--that their soul had remained dormant in TAR from the time of LTT's death until Rand's birth.

 

If Ishamael is correct in thinking that this battle between surrogates has been going on forever, then I guess you could question why Rand/LTT can't "talk" with any number of other personalities that have used this same soul, except of course, that they shouldn't even be able to speak with EACH other, much less EVERY other...

[liatildina]

Rand and LTT share a soul. They speak to each other and discuss amongst themselves what Rand wouldn't dare speak to others. Even crazy LTT imparts some knowledge. I agree that he does live with Rand, okay maybe that is a little simple, I know they aren't housemates, but he's in there. LTT's most fervent wish is to reach the last battle and die there. Can he die and Rand live? LTT would have his revenge for all his dead and the peace of death. Rand would revenge his dead women and have life. Could LTT push Rand to the back of their shared mind and have his suicide without the murder of Rand in the process?

[Gentled Ben]

Yes. I believe that Graendal would call it "reintegration."

[Luckers]

But if you want to use that incident as proof for LTT being real, I suggest going back a few pages, when Rand sees moridin clearly for the first time. LTT makes a comment about "their so-called True Power", something Rand could not possibly have any knowledge about. And if some weaves could be explained about bits of memories drifting up randomly, this is a direct response to something Rand experiences.

 

Actually that comment was made by Rand, with the specific addage that 'it no longer felt strange to have another man's knowledge seem his own'.

 

But other then that im not sure i see the significance of it in the question of LTT's reality. It proves merely that LTT is centred in this time with Rand, and his knowledge is participating in Rand's understanding of his own experiences. But that doesn't change the fact that it is undeniable knowledge that could only have come if LTT is indeed really Lews Therin Telamon, and not merely a construction of Rand's mind.

[Gentled Ben]

That is the significance of it.

[Varcolac]

Another reason that I doubt my own theories is that I don't have the books on hand and I'm going on memories of what I've read up to two years before this point.

 

My guess is that my attention to detail on certain long chapters waned, and I combined some chapters like the Rhuidean scene and the Portal Stone scene. I think that the "I Win Again Lews Therin" line kept repeating itself while I was thinking of Rhuidean. Sorry about that.

 

But, just out of curiosity, does it ever outright say that there have been no Dragons between Rand and Lews Therin? Or does it keep quoting dates and referencing the breaking and gives Aes Sedai side steps?

 

Also, in the Portal Stone scene, is that actually the DO talking to each of the possible Rands, and that's what "our" Rand is hearing, or is it an imagined response from "our" Rand?

 

And as my last off topic question (I'm allowed to, as I thought of the original, lol) As I understood, there is only one DO that is in all of the possible realities. If he dies in one, he dies in all, and vice versa.

 

So, is there not MANY possibilities where DO wins? Does that mean that TG is destined to only be locked away DO again?

 

And if Rand has a chance at winning, does that not render the Portal Stone scene, and the DO wins, rather null?

[Gentled Ben]

I don't know that Rand has ever heard the DO's voice; I think who he was hearing was Ishamael, who presented himself as Ba'alzamon. I understood it to be Ishamael taunting him over and over again, or at least, Rand imagining it.

 

I don't think that it ever specifically states that there have been no rebirths of the LTT/Rand soul between LTT and Rand; I just said that I'd always figured that there hadn't been. I have no concrete proof of it, and I probably wouldn't be willing to argue the point for long. That just isn't a hill I would die on, you know? If you hate that theory, stomp on it if you wish.

 

As far as the DO dying or only being locked away, I liked Herid Fell's theory about there being no Bore in one (or more) age(s), then a Bore (in 2nd, or AOL and 3rd ages), then, again no Bore after TG. Over and over and over again (cuz it's a turnin' wheel).

 

Loial certainly seems to believe that if the DO gets free in one world, he'll be free in all of them. That's one of the arguments he makes to his mother against opening the Book of Translation; it would only be running away, and they couldn't even escape. Might as well stick it out right here and fight, just like in the Trolloc Wars. At least, that was what I got out of Loial's argument.

[Luckers]

The dragon soul has not been reborn since LTT--the simple fact that his actions would have been documented, plus the prophecy nessitates the actions of the soul the next time it was born to follow the paths Rand has.

[Mad Season]

I always thought the weakening of the seals, the DO's growing influence and the Forsaken being released all corresponded with the Dragon Reborn's birth. (As in they are all fated to happen at the same time.)I don't think the wheel would spin out the Dragon when the DO is quiet and the Shadow's influence isn't changing.

[Shaidar_Rannow]

There has to have been more dragons. There is no beginning and no end. This is a beginning and all that sort. If you put a mark on a wheel and spin it the mark will appear again. However this is the last time this mark will occur from all information I have gathered this is to be the last battle. Even the Isane Isshy knows that time is short. Failure means destruction of the wheel and victory would mean the end of the dark one and the end of that evil. I personally think this creator flawed this world and doomed it to make the same mistakes and misteps until we got it right. Basically its go time now, time to study for the final test, win or well...Die. :twisted:

[Taishar Manetheren]

Just wanted to ask shaidar above me to remove his oversized avatar. its realy annoying...

[Trib4l]

[bjclinton]

I always assumed, based on something that Ishy said to LTT at the end of the prologue in TEOTW, that LTT has many many "Dragon" predecessors and that Rand just happened to be the one following LTT...at least thats defintely the direction that RJ wants us to assume- all of the prophesies that we see are made directly after Kinslayer died, heralding the birth of Rand Al'Thor, the Dragon Reborn- the recreation of LTT. But I also assume that very similiar prophesies were in place, or had the potential to be in place w/out people knowing, about LTT before he became the Dragon in his age.

 

In other words, in the order of how the Dragon has been spun out of the pattern to fight the DO, its probably happened thousands of time...then one day, in the Age of Legends, Lew Therin Tellamon was born- the Dragon Reborn- again- like many others before him...and we know what happened there- he got the name Kinslayer (for obvious reasons), died, and was destined to be reborn the next time the DO broke free- thats where Rand comes into play- he just happened to be Dragon # 2,324,567,349 (or any arbitrary number), the one right after LTT. And this just happened to be the one story that Mr Jordan decided to tell.

 

At least thats how I see it....there are neither beginnings nor ends in the wheel of time....but it was a beginning...

 

....world without end, and all that jazz.