Is Taim a Chosen?

[capuga]

For the Taim=Morridin people,

 

What about Taim having the sigil of a guantleted hand gripping three lighting bolts (either Be'lal or Sammael's sigil) on each step to his 'throne room'?

 

Just hadn't seen it mentioned. To me it goes against Morridin as Taim. Though...

 

Be'lal could be said to have helped ishy confront rand in the stone to get him to take callandor. Maybe he's honoring his help, or gave his title/rank to Taim when he died. Off the deep end now.

why would it go against Taim=Moridin?! this is one of the best argument for it. this is clearly a Forsaken sigil. Both bel'al and Sammael used it.

Broad stone stairs rose to a wide landing in front of tall twinned doors. Each bore a gauntleted fist gripping three lightning bolts, carved large and gilded.

 

- Knife of Dreams, Epilogue

 

Nynaeve saw the sigil painted [on the carriage door]. A silver-gauntleted fist clutching jagged lightning bolts. She supposed it was High Lord Samon's [be’lal’s] sign...

 

- The Dragon Reborn, Bait For the Net

 

His [sammael's] chair was heavy wood, carved with...a steel-gauntleted fist clasping lightning at the back's peak.

 

- Fires of Heaven, A Silver Arrow

note that Taim's sigil is golden while Bel'al's and Sammael's are silver/steel. If anything this would indicate that he considers himself to be their superior.

 

Or that he thinks gold looks cool and Be'lal and Sammael think silver and steel look cool. We don't have any real evidence that the colors indicate rank.

it usually does. but in any case, this is definitely a Forsaken sigil - that much is clear.

 

In our world it indicates rank. There's nothing in the books to suggest this is true in Randland or for the sigils in particular. What's clear is that people who follow the Shadow have used this sigil, not that it denotes a Forsaken. It could just as easily be Taim striving to be like/immitating his superiors as it is evidence that Taim himself is a Forsaken and/or Moridin. And we've seen no evidence of Ishy/Moridin using this sigil anywhere in the books. So this is not good evidence that Taim=Moridin. It does suggest that Taim could be a Forsaken, although this would mean that he would have to be an elevated 3rd ager.

[herid]

 

 

In our world it indicates rank. There's nothing in the books to suggest this is true in Randland or for the sigils in particular. What's clear is that people who follow the Shadow have used this sigil, not that it denotes a Forsaken. It could just as easily be Taim striving to be like/immitating his superiors as it is evidence that Taim himself is a Forsaken and/or Moridin. And we've seen no evidence of Ishy/Moridin using this sigil anywhere in the books. So this is not good evidence that Taim=Moridin. It does suggest that Taim could be a Forsaken, although this would mean that he would have to be an elevated 3rd ager.

well, according to RJ, our world is the same as the WoT world. and we certainly have plenty of references that gold is more valuable than silver in Randlands too. that's evident in the money system they use. Gold is a precious metal, more valuable than silver. that's true in randlands as well as in out world. it's therefore quite reasonable to assume that when both are used in military insignia gold would signify higher rank. as for the other point, note that I never claimed that Taim is Moridin. I do consider this as good evidence supporting the theory but it's by no means conclusive and yes it could simply signify a high ranking protegee of Moridin.

[capuga]

 

 

In our world it indicates rank. There's nothing in the books to suggest this is true in Randland or for the sigils in particular. What's clear is that people who follow the Shadow have used this sigil, not that it denotes a Forsaken. It could just as easily be Taim striving to be like/immitating his superiors as it is evidence that Taim himself is a Forsaken and/or Moridin. And we've seen no evidence of Ishy/Moridin using this sigil anywhere in the books. So this is not good evidence that Taim=Moridin. It does suggest that Taim could be a Forsaken, although this would mean that he would have to be an elevated 3rd ager.

well, according to RJ, our world is the same as the WoT world. and we certainly have plenty of references that gold is more valuable than silver in Randlands too. that's evident in the money system they use. Gold is a precious metal, more valuable than silver. that's true in randlands as well as in out world. it's therefore quite reasonable to assume that when both are used in military insignia gold would signify higher rank. as for the other point, note that I never claimed that Taim is Moridin. I do consider this as good evidence supporting the theory but it's by no means conclusive and yes it could simply signify a high ranking protegee of Moridin.

 

I'm just saying the gold and silver as currency is not indicative of "military" rank. For example, we have zero evidence that suggests that either Be'lal or Sammael were higher ranked than the other. So why was one silver and one steel. We also don't have any evidence to support this being a "military insignia" where rank would be indicated on it. As far as we know it is just a personal emblem. While I understand this being used as evidence in various arguments, I'm just pointing out that we don't have any solid evidence to support 1) That any Forsaken other than Be'lal and Sammael use it or 2) That different colors indicate rank.

[herid]

 

 

In our world it indicates rank. There's nothing in the books to suggest this is true in Randland or for the sigils in particular. What's clear is that people who follow the Shadow have used this sigil, not that it denotes a Forsaken. It could just as easily be Taim striving to be like/immitating his superiors as it is evidence that Taim himself is a Forsaken and/or Moridin. And we've seen no evidence of Ishy/Moridin using this sigil anywhere in the books. So this is not good evidence that Taim=Moridin. It does suggest that Taim could be a Forsaken, although this would mean that he would have to be an elevated 3rd ager.

well, according to RJ, our world is the same as the WoT world. and we certainly have plenty of references that gold is more valuable than silver in Randlands too. that's evident in the money system they use. Gold is a precious metal, more valuable than silver. that's true in randlands as well as in out world. it's therefore quite reasonable to assume that when both are used in military insignia gold would signify higher rank. as for the other point, note that I never claimed that Taim is Moridin. I do consider this as good evidence supporting the theory but it's by no means conclusive and yes it could simply signify a high ranking protegee of Moridin.

 

I'm just saying the gold and silver as currency is not indicative of "military" rank. For example, we have zero evidence that suggests that either Be'lal or Sammael were higher ranked than the other. So why was one silver and one steel. We also don't have any evidence to support this being a "military insignia" where rank would be indicated on it. As far as we know it is just a personal emblem. While I understand this being used as evidence in various arguments, I'm just pointing out that we don't have any solid evidence to support 1) That any Forsaken other than Be'lal and Sammael use it or 2) That different colors indicate rank.

I don't understand your insistence on this. we know for sure of two Forsaken using this sigil. that is enough. when another person shows up and uses this sigil the most obvious conclusion is that it's another Forsaken or at the very least someone closely connected to a Forsaken.

 

as for gold and the rank thing, while hardly definitive this is certainly a likely explanation. Rand himself does the same thing with Asha'man ranks. Dedicated get silver pins to indicate their ranks and full Asha'man get red-and-gold dragon pins.

[Mik]

 

 

In our world it indicates rank. There's nothing in the books to suggest this is true in Randland or for the sigils in particular. What's clear is that people who follow the Shadow have used this sigil, not that it denotes a Forsaken. It could just as easily be Taim striving to be like/immitating his superiors as it is evidence that Taim himself is a Forsaken and/or Moridin. And we've seen no evidence of Ishy/Moridin using this sigil anywhere in the books. So this is not good evidence that Taim=Moridin. It does suggest that Taim could be a Forsaken, although this would mean that he would have to be an elevated 3rd ager.

well, according to RJ, our world is the same as the WoT world. and we certainly have plenty of references that gold is more valuable than silver in Randlands too. that's evident in the money system they use. Gold is a precious metal, more valuable than silver. that's true in randlands as well as in out world. it's therefore quite reasonable to assume that when both are used in military insignia gold would signify higher rank. as for the other point, note that I never claimed that Taim is Moridin. I do consider this as good evidence supporting the theory but it's by no means conclusive and yes it could simply signify a high ranking protegee of Moridin.

I'm just saying the gold and silver as currency is not indicative of "military" rank.

Currency? Not persé no, but I think it does make sense.

Wouldn't you agree that If you were to assign rank by material, that the higher the rank, the more valuable the material representing said rank would be? Besides, we have written proof that RJ links military rank to valuable materials. See below.

 

For example, we have zero evidence that suggests that either Be'lal or Sammael were higher ranked than the other. So why was one silver and one steel. We also don't have any evidence to support this being a "military insignia" where rank would be indicated on it.

Ah, but we do have evidence that 'symbol-material' has a role in defining rank in WoT! And all I need is one lousy quote: enter Charl Gedwyn!

 

Their [the Asha'man Rand had sent for] commander, Charl Gedwyn, was a few years older than Rand, of middling height and wearing the Sword and Dragon (1), like Torval, on a very well cut, high-collared coat of the best black silk. His sword was mounted lushly with silver, his silver-worked sword belt fastened with a silver buckle shaped in a clenched fist (3). Gedwyn termed himself Tsorovan’m’hael; in the Old Tongue, Storm Leader (2), whatever that was supposed to mean. It seemed appropriate to the weather, at least.

 

.../ /...Storm Leader? And Manel Rochaid, Gedwyn’s second, called himself Baijan’m’hael, Attack Leader. What was Taim up to, creating new ranks (2)? The important thing was that the man made weapons.

 

This is all just from the few lines above:

 

(1): The military ranking system RJ conjured up for Rand to give the Black Tower is based on three ranks; Soldier, Dedicated & Asha'man.

The first -and most simple symbol- is that Soldiers all wear a similar black uniform. When Soldiers advance to the next rank -the Dedicated- they are given the silver Sword badge to add to their uniform. When they advance from Dedicated to Asha'man they are given the golden Dragon badge.

 

In this example, gaining a higer (millitairy) rank & recieving a symbol of more valuable material are clearly linked in WoT.

And it's pretty close to the mark, because in this particular case it also concerns Power-wielding men of war, like Be'lal & Sammael both are.

 

But wait, it get's better...

 

(2): "Taim" created new military ranks and gave Gedwyn the title "Storm Leader". Wouldn't you agree it's a pretty funny coincidence that it usually takes a "storm" to produce lightning? Both the name of the rank of Gedwyn and the symbols we've seen throughout the books that were used by Sammael, Be'lal & "Taim" share the same theme. Since it's absolutely undeniably clear that Gedwyn's title (a vocal symbol) defines his rank, it becomes more then just an educated guess to say the same for the symbols we see used by the Forsaken. Especially now that I've shown precious metals are used to depict rank for the Asha'man.

 

Are we done yet? No!....

 

(3): Right before when Gedwyn's rank is first mentioned, RJ also shows us what Gedwyn is wearing. And what-da-ya-know! He's wearing a "silver clenched fist"!

It's Gedwyn's symbol that depicts his Dreadlord rank, right out in the open!

 

I think you're -just- discussing materials that define rank for Sammael, Be'lal & "Taim" for an otherwise similar symbol I depicted right below:

 

 

But with Gedwyn's symbol added to the mix, why not consider the following symbols to represent the quotes about the 'gaunteled fists holding lightning'.

Just re-read the quotes on the symbols depicted on Be'lals coach, Sammaels TaR-chair or "Taim"s doors. Only in the last one, the number of lightning bolts is mentioned.

Sammael's gauntleted fist could very well be just holding one lightning bolt. All we know about Be'lals gaunteled fist is that it holds more then one.

From left to right:

Gedwyn, Sammael, Be'lal & "Taim" (actually Ishamael transmsigrated in Taim's body)

 

 

 

As far as we know it is just a personal emblem. While I understand this being used as evidence in various arguments, I'm just pointing out that we don't have any solid evidence to support 1) That any Forsaken other than Be'lal and Sammael use it or 2) That different colors indicate rank.

I think I just proved you wrong on that colors (materials actually) can indicate rank and that Gedwyn uses a very similar symbol that fis just fine in the ranking system. He's too low to have any Lightning Bolts or even a Gauntlet in his rank-symbol, but he's high enough to wear a Shadow-symbol; the clenched fist.

 

 

Sidenote:

Does noone think it funny Ishamael promised Lews Therin as far back as the Prologue of TEotW that 'he would make men kneel and worship the name they had given him to revile him'?

Given the quote I gave above where Tsorovan'm'hael means Storm Leader, does noone realize that Asha'm'hael -meaning Sword Leader (roughly trnaslated as BladeMaster) actually looks a lot like Ishamael? Ishamael transmigrated in Taims body is keeping his promuise to Lews Therin. :)

 

And like I posted once in the structured "Taim" thread, Lews Therin has recognised Ishamael in "Taim" and tells Rand. (look it up if interested)

 

Cheers,

Mik

[capuga]

As far as we know it is just a personal emblem. While I understand this being used as evidence in various arguments, I'm just pointing out that we don't have any solid evidence to support 1) That any Forsaken other than Be'lal and Sammael use it or 2) That different colors indicate rank.

I think I just proved you wrong on that colors (materials actually) can indicate rank and that Gedwyn uses a very similar symbol that fis just fine in the ranking system. He's too low to have any Lightning Bolts or even a Gauntlet in his rank-symbol, but he's high enough to wear a Shadow-symbol; the clenched fist.

 

No, what you just proved was that colors and materials can indicate rank. Not that they do for the Forsaken's sigil. Rand created the ranking system for the Asha'man. So he wasn't following any kind of Forsaken guidelines. As far as we know, the Forsaken could value strength above wealth. So maybe steel would be the highest rank as the strongest metal and gold would be the lowest rank as the softest metal. Perhaps the sigil indicates a Shadow player of significant rank but the color of the metal is just personal preference. This assumption that it indicates rank is just an assumption. Its a fairly reasonable one, but its certainly not the conclusive proof that some put it forth as.

[Ishna]

The Taim= Moridin is a very good proof of how the human brain sometimes wants to find patterns and solutions but takes it a little to far. The simplest explanation is most of the time

the most likely. The simplest is that Taim is..... Taim! Its some kind of wishthinking involved, it would be "cooler" if Taim was Moridin to some people.

 

The first thing I would say almost certainly disqualifies this theory is time. How could Taim/Moridin find time for all other schemes and machinations he is up to if he was to be fulltime at the black tower

training recruiting and stuff like that. Not something the shadows top commander would have time for if he is to be succesful and efficient.

 

Second, Why would Moridin not have his original body, or be given Taims or the body of someone of a similar appearance when he met Rand first time. Rand would not regognize him anyway. if he was resurrected with this purpose he would have been given a suting body.

 

Third, the orders in PoD to the 4 black ashaman. Why would he give orders as both Taim and Moridin to them? Whats the point?

 

Fourth, his knowledge and the sigils. Nothing of this is a "yes that means he must be one of the chosen" kinda thing at all. Could as likely mean just serving a forsaken if it means something about the shadow at all.Just some kind of wishthinking from people who either want him to be

Taim or event still demandred, or a chosen by his own right. Hard to see that he is yet, bút not totally impossible. The only thing I dont thinks is easiest explanained by Taim being Taim is the "so-called aiel" quote.

 

 

To sum it up, none of the so-called proofs of Moridin=Taim is at all convincing imo. Not even combined. At most somethings point at forsaken influence over Taim. As for him being a forsaken by his own right, that doesnt seem likely yet but not unlikely either. There is no other new candidate for this from this age yet except Taim. Someone powerful and competent enough who also seem to working for the shadow.

[mb]

If the Taim mentioned in the first books is the same Taim that appears in the later books, then he cannot be any of the 13.

I doubted of there being new Forsaken even before the release of Towers of Midnight. None of the 13 promoted their followers on-screen; and none of the 13 asked the Dark One for any of their followers to become Forsaken.

 

I have seen these possibilities about Taim::

-he being a Darkfriend

-he being someone forced to the Shadow

-he being his own side

From what I read, there seems a equal chance of each of those.

It seems certain that Taim is not Light-sided since he ordered killing of a Light-sided person.

 

 

Edit:: Besides Taim's timeline, the books up through Gathering Storm do not tell whether he knew Illusion.

[OptimusPrime]

For the Taim=Morridin people,

 

What about Taim having the sigil of a guantleted hand gripping three lighting bolts (either Be'lal or Sammael's sigil) on each step to his 'throne room'?

 

Just hadn't seen it mentioned. To me it goes against Morridin as Taim. Though...

 

Be'lal could be said to have helped ishy confront rand in the stone to get him to take callandor. Maybe he's honoring his help, or gave his title/rank to Taim when he died. Off the deep end now.

why would it go against Taim=Moridin?! this is one of the best argument for it. this is clearly a Forsaken sigil. Both bel'al and Sammael used it.

Broad stone stairs rose to a wide landing in front of tall twinned doors. Each bore a gauntleted fist gripping three lightning bolts, carved large and gilded.

 

- Knife of Dreams, Epilogue

 

Nynaeve saw the sigil painted [on the carriage door]. A silver-gauntleted fist clutching jagged lightning bolts. She supposed it was High Lord Samon's [be’lal’s] sign...

 

- The Dragon Reborn, Bait For the Net

 

His [sammael's] chair was heavy wood, carved with...a steel-gauntleted fist clasping lightning at the back's peak.

 

- Fires of Heaven, A Silver Arrow

note that Taim's sigil is golden while Bel'al's and Sammael's are silver/steel. If anything this would indicate that he considers himself to be their superior.

 

Thanks for looking those up.

I think it goes against Taim=Morridin because why on earth would Morridin use the other forsaken's insignia. Seems more like a man who knows his better's power, and tries to imitate it.

 

Seems to me that Moridin put all the signs there deliberately so when Rand eventually does go there it will seem too late to do anything. The whole place is black and red, with a load of Old Tongue titles, and it has Stormleader icons all over the place. For the record I dont think the icons are dedicated to those particular Forsaken. I think Be'lal and Sammael used those symbols because they were generals, as in I think those icons might be commanding Dreadlord sigils, not Forsaken. But I dont know that for sure.

 

Besides that, if Taim IS Moridin, then he has his reasons to make Rand think the Black Tower is heavily infested, why NOT put those symbols there? If the symbols of two dead Forsaken show up AFTER they died, and if Rand saw them AFTER his talk with Moridin in TGS, then Rand would likely worry if Be'lal or Sammael were back as well despite their cause of death. It would benefit Moridin for Rand to think there are more Chosen than there really are. Remember, Moridin is Ishamael, the lying liar who lies. Guess what hes doing?

 

Nobody can prove Taim is at the Black Tower full time. Its no use replying with "Taim IS at the Black Tower fulltime" because we have chunks of time where Taim is in "private classes" which I think are when Moridin goes out to the Blight. Also, nobody can say "Moridin is in the Blight full time" because, again, we dont know that.

 

Taim and Moridins orders DO NOT conflict each other. Kill him vs Kill him if you must to get his possessions is not as massive a contradiction as people make out. Both ways he has given permission to kill Rand. This is even after Moridin himself gave the no kill order to the Forsaken, so whatever happens, Moridin has contradicted his own words even as himself without even bringing Taims words into it. So the Taim-Moridin slightly different order thing means diddly squat.

 

Everything Taim says is all an act. Moridin is playing the part, he is ACTING the part.

[capuga]

Taim and Moridins orders DO NOT conflict each other. Kill him vs Kill him if you must to get his possessions is not as massive a contradiction as people make out. Both ways he has given permission to kill Rand. This is even after Moridin himself gave the no kill order to the Forsaken, so whatever happens, Moridin has contradicted his own words even as himself without even bringing Taims words into it. So the Taim-Moridin slightly different order thing means diddly squat.

 

But Moridin's orders make it plain that the possessions are the most important part of the order. So what happens if they just follow Taim's order and kill him? By having conflicting orders, you run the risk of not getting what you really want, which was the CK. It is foolish and unnecessary to issue two differing orders to your underlings. Issue one order to make sure you get what you want.

 

Everything Taim says is all an act. Moridin is playing the part, he is ACTING the part.

 

But why continue the act around the Darkfriends? There is no reason to present two differing faces to those already dedicated to you. He can command them as he wishes as either Taim or Moridin. It makes no sense to confuse those that are on your side.

[Mandro]

Mazrim Taim seems powerful enough to be a Chosen. Most of the discussion seems to be about him being/controlled by one of the remaining male forsaken, but why can't he be one? We know that the Forsaken at the end of the WOP were 13 but when they meet to discuss Rand's plan to cleanse saidin one of them recalls that the DO had killed dozens of Chosen. If there had been more Chosen before, why can't more be appointed now?

 

I'm jumping in before finishing the thread. At the time when Rand demands that Taim grasp the power, as much as he can, and is just weaker than rand (though the recognition of the resonance infers a much greater strength in the power) occurs soon after rand starts training with Azmodean, and rand says how much stronger he is each day with asmodean.

 

I highly doubt that asmodean died, just as Rand finished his forcing, especially based on the defense of the manor, and the slaughter in saldea. If Rand, apparently is still (until VoG) in strength in the power, then taim is far below rand, and like, a pretty fair bit below logain.

[Mandro]

I believe that the Taim = moridin thing impossible, but you never know, if it happens that way, I would be disappointed greatly.

 

Jordan changed up the descriptions of strengths a lot throughout the books, but Ishamael was almost always equal, and as I just said, rand must not have been in his full strength when he killed Rahvin, meaning taim was almost as strong after years of channeling, as the growing power that was Rands mastery. If Taim was Ishamael/moridin, then Ishamael was a wussbag in the AoL. I think Taim MIGHT be one of the others, but I think they are all accounted for, other than asmodeon (at least the ones that can be reborn) and asmodean was a big fat wussbag, unless there is something else to him. (which would make sense, why "chose" a coward and weakling? That always turned wrong with me.)

 

I think taim is a dreadlord, and maybe the equivalent of a new chosen, but I still think that absent assistance from the age of legents, Logain could juggle three of taim while the love of taims life felates Logain, and getting hit in the face with a water bladder by each of Logains AS. (was that too much?)

 

I don't think there is any question that Logain is more powerful than Taim. Logain is poorly trained "He would have refused me the dragon, if he dared." which I think says that Logain wasn't a false dragon of prominance, but because Logain is that powerful.

 

(sorry rambling.)

[herid]

 

 

I don't think there is any question that Logain is more powerful than Taim. Logain is poorly trained "He would have refused me the dragon, if he dared." which I think says that Logain wasn't a false dragon of prominance, but because Logain is that powerful.

 

(sorry rambling.)

why would you think Logain is stronger than Taim?! when Rand measures Taim up Taim is described to be nearly as strong as Rand. and he might be holding something back too. Rand feels no strain.

 

“How strong are you?” Rand broke in. “Seize saidin. Do it. As much as you can hold.”

 

For a moment Taim only looked at him, expressionless; then the Power flooded into him. There was no glow such as women could see around one another, only a sense of force and menace, but Rand could feel it clearly, and judge it. Taim held enough of saidin to devastate the farm and everyone there in seconds, enough to lay waste as far as he could see. It was not much short of what Rand himself could manage, unaided. But then, the man could be holding back. There was no sense of strain and he might not want to show his full strength to Rand; how could he know how Rand might react?

-LoC, Ch 3

 

and he should feel strain if Taim were full to the brink. Logain can tell when Rand is full.

 

"A Deathgate," Logain said, his voice tinged with distaste. "Why are you still holding the Power?'- he asked suddenly. "And so much.

 

If you're trying to show me that you're stronger than I am, I already know it. I saw how large your . . . your Deathgates were compared to mine. And I'd say you're holding every drop of saidin that you can safely."

-KoD, Ch 19

 

also, Rand should be near his full strength in LoC. he was pushed strongly in his development by using the Eye of the World , Callandor and Choedan Kal (when he fought Asmodean). that would accelerate the speed with which he achieved his full strength greatly.

[Balthasor]

Hi guys and gals! (POSSIBLE SPOILER ALERT)

 

Wow long discussion for a simple answer, I apologize if someone else already mentioned what I am about to say.

 

Moridin = Ishmael, we already know this from one of the last few books when Rand met with Moridin through the dreamworld and they talked.

 

Taim = Demandred (spelling), of course I have no proof but it is obvious. One of the last books (sorry not sure which) we start reading from one of the forsaken's point of view (i think it was Graendal) where the remaining forsaken have a meeting with Moridin. Moridin was last to arrive but before he did Demandred arrived and the forsaken whose eyes we were seeing this part of the story through described the portal from which he came through, describing a room with walls of black stone. Also during that meeting Demandred was talking about his army that he has been preparing for the final battle and that it was going to be very powerful. Another hint in the latest book is that its obvious Taim has been using compulsion on the ashaman. Now I know this isn't proof and there are other possibilities, but it seems obvious that Taim is Demandred.

[capuga]

Hi guys and gals! (POSSIBLE SPOILER ALERT)

 

Wow long discussion for a simple answer, I apologize if someone else already mentioned what I am about to say.

 

Moridin = Ishmael, we already know this from one of the last few books when Rand met with Moridin through the dreamworld and they talked.

 

Taim = Demandred (spelling), of course I have no proof but it is obvious. One of the last books (sorry not sure which) we start reading from one of the forsaken's point of view (i think it was Graendal) where the remaining forsaken have a meeting with Moridin. Moridin was last to arrive but before he did Demandred arrived and the forsaken whose eyes we were seeing this part of the story through described the portal from which he came through, describing a room with walls of black stone. Also during that meeting Demandred was talking about his army that he has been preparing for the final battle and that it was going to be very powerful. Another hint in the latest book is that its obvious Taim has been using compulsion on the ashaman. Now I know this isn't proof and there are other possibilities, but it seems obvious that Taim is Demandred.

 

Welcome to the boards.

 

Taim=Demandred has been expressly denied by RJ several times. (Check out the RJ/Brandon interview database in Terez's signature for all the quotes.) Beyond that, we're given pretty strong evidence against this theory in WH when Demandred sees Damer Flinn and doesn't recognize him. Taim, of course, knows Flinn. The WOTFAQ is also a good resource. You can find the link near the top of the forums under something like "Online Resources".

[Balthasor]

Thanks Mark, havn't read any of that and I am surprised. If Taim is not a chosen then he must either be a pawn, or someone who really wants to be the DR and is doing it his own way.

[capuga]

Thanks Mark, havn't read any of that and I am surprised. If Taim is not a chosen then he must either be a pawn, or someone who really wants to be the DR and is doing it his own way.

 

I think the most likely explanation is that he is a high ranking Darkfriend who was tutored by Ishy before the time the series started. If you look at Luckers article in the WOTFAQ regarding who ordered the attack on Lord Algarin's (sp?) manor in KoD, he lays out a compelling case for Ishy training Taim.

[capuga]

Here's the link to Terez's database:

 

Terez's WoT database

[Crossroad]

Mazrim Taim just another present day power hungry channeller who is a Darkfriend. I can't wait to see the meeting between him and Rand. He's going to do brick size fece.

[Mr Ares]

Sidenote:

Does noone think it funny Ishamael promised Lews Therin as far back as the Prologue of TEotW that 'he would make men kneel and worship the name they had given him to revile him'?

Given the quote I gave above where Tsorovan'm'hael means Storm Leader, does noone realize that Asha'm'hael -meaning Sword Leader (roughly trnaslated as BladeMaster) actually looks a lot like Ishamael? Ishamael transmigrated in Taims body is keeping his promuise to Lews Therin. :)

Thinking on it, I really don't see what's funny about Ishamael promising to make people worship the name Betrayer of Hope and this looking a lot like the word Asha'm'hael - a word that never appears in the series, that people don't worship, and which bears a rather dubious old tongue translation. And Moridin is almost certainly not Taim - that theory has issues that have yet to be explained away.

[dholm]

Taim is not Moridin. Moridin does not channel the One Power any longer.

 

Winter's Heart, Chapter 13, Wonderful News:

A black speck floated across Moridin’s blue eyes, then another, in a steady stream. The man must have been using the True Power exclusively since he last saw him to gain so many saa so quickly.

 

If Moridin channeled the True Power exclusively, he cannot have taught anyone at the Black Tower how to channel saidin. It does not work.

 

 

As to whether Taim is a Chosen...? There is not enough evidence one way or the other. Taim has certainly done enough damage at the Black Tower to warrant a promotion, but the Chosen are a notoriously exclusive group. Since Taim is not from the Age of Legends, he could be barred entry from that alone. The Great Lord does not know everything, and he has weaknesses -- amongst them thinking his Chosen superior to modern channelers.

[herid]

Taim is not Moridin. Moridin does not channel the One Power any longer.

 

Winter's Heart, Chapter 13, Wonderful News:

A black speck floated across Moridin’s blue eyes, then another, in a steady stream. The man must have been using the True Power exclusively since he last saw him to gain so many saa so quickly.

 

If Moridin channeled the True Power exclusively, he cannot have taught anyone at the Black Tower how to channel saidin. It does not work.

 

this argument has been brought up many times and it alone proves nothing. First of all, this is only Demandred's opinion. the characters in the books are often wrong about what they believe - RJ emphasized that specifically. Secondly, it only refers to a relatively short time period (Demandred himself stresses that). Moridin first made himself known to the other Forsaken some time in tPoD. the scene in question is from early on in WH which is the very next book after tPoD.

on the other hand, the last we see Taim channeling saidin onscreen was in CoS when he is coming back with Rand from Dumai's Wells. after that we don't ever see Taim channel saidin onscreen except for one possible episode in the epilogue of KoD.

 

A tall, golden-haired man standing near the dais sneered at her. "Why should we allow Aes Sedai to take any m-" Something unseen struck the side of his head so hard that his feet left the floor tiles before he fell in a heap, eyes closed and blood trickling from his nostrils.

A lean man with receding gray-streaked hair and a forked beard bent to touch a finger to the fallen man's head. "He's alive," he said as he straightened, "but his skull's cracked and his jaw's broken." He might have been talking about the weather. None of the men made any move to offer Healing. Not one!

"I have some small skill in Healing." Melare said, gathering her skirts and already moving toward the fallen man. "Enough for this, I think. With your permission."

Taim shook his head. "You do not have my permission. If Mishraile survives till nightfall, he'll be Healed. Perhaps the pain will teach him to guard his tongue. You say you want to bond Warders? Reds?"

It's not completely clear who channeled what here but Taim is the most likely suspect. It's unlikely that anybody else would punish Mishraile in Taim's presence without asking Taim's permission and Taim is not likely to channel TP in the open even if he is surrounded by his lackeys at the moment even if they already know that he can channel TP.

 

But this is the only time we see Taim channel saidin after CoS (that's a period of 6 books). it would certainly seem that he should do it regularly but it never happens onscreen.

 

he mentioned to Rand that he now delegates a lot of day-to-day duties in BT to others so it's not even clear that he does any teaching in BT now other than in his mysterious special classes and who knows what's going on there.

 

But of course, it's pretty unlikely that Taim never channels saidin now. still it could easily be that if Taim=Moridin he channels TP as Moridin all the time and channels saidin as Taim. TP is very seductive so he'd savor every chance he had to channel it which he couldn't often do as Taim.

[dholm]

That is circular logic. Taim is Moridin therefore he channels True Power all the time since he can't do it as Taim? No. Ishamael refuses to channel the One Power and stresses it at every opportunity, and when he becomes Moridin, he does the same.

 

If we were to assume that this theory is correct, it means that there was an actual Mazrim Taim (or at least a different imposter than Ishamael himself) -- the "real" Taim fell and was captured by the Aes Sedai when Rand proclaimed himself as the Dragon Reborn by fighting Ishamael above Falme. Taim was then freed. What happened to him, then? You would have us believe that they went to the effort of freeing Taim only to have Moridin impersonate him? Why? What is the point? Taim only leads the Black Tower because Rand put him in that position, and the Dragon made that decision on his own -- no one influenced him, or could be certain that he would give that position to Taim. Why would Moridin bother? Especially considering the risk. Taim is shorter (he is "almost as tall as Rand", whereas Moridin is "easily as tall as Rand"), which is a considerable failing in an Illusion. Remember how careful Sammael was in his dealings with Sevanna; he never let her touch him because the Illusion was so fragile. I do not recall any incident where Taim does anything of the kind. Rand actually pinned something on Taim's collar. It's too risky.

 

It is far more likely that Demandred freed Mazrim Taim, a Friend of the Dark, in order to use him against Rand. Then Taim was co-opted by Moridin when he was transmogrified.

 

Moridin does not need an alter-ego. He is the Nae'blis. He resides in the Blight, directing the efforts of the other Chosen and the armies of the Shadow.

 

As for Demandred's opinion, it is hardly likely that he would be wrong about how long it takes to acquire that many saa - he has channeled the True Power, and he knows the seduction and the risk, and only channels it at great need. Besides, it is a completely logical conclusion. Demanded does not have any saa himself, and neither do any of the other Chosen. Presumably they only channeled it sparingly as well.

[herid]

That is circular logic. Taim is Moridin therefore he channels True Power all the time since he can't do it as Taim? No. Ishamael refuses to channel the One Power and stresses it at every opportunity, and when he becomes Moridin, he does the same.

it's not circular. he channels TP as Moridin and OP as Taim. there is nothing circular about it.

 

If we were to assume that this theory is correct, it means that there was an actual Mazrim Taim (or at least a different imposter than Ishamael himself) -- the "real" Taim fell and was captured by the Aes Sedai when Rand proclaimed himself as the Dragon Reborn by fighting Ishamael above Falme. Taim was then freed. What happened to him, then? You would have us believe that they went to the effort of freeing Taim only to have Moridin impersonate him?

 

That's exactly what I think happened. Moreover, it can be proved beyond doubt regardless of whether Taim is Moridin or not. The current Taim is an impostor. I have a separate thread on it and I wrote up the proof in my blog.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/blog/110/entry-1158-taim-is-an-impostor/

 

The original Taim may have been a light-sider, just someone who could channel and declared himself a Dragon. Or he may have been a darkfriend. It's hard to say and is not important. If Moridin wanted to take his place and become Rand's adviser it was quite logical to kidnap Taim, kill him and then impersonate him to get close to Rand. That's more or less what Arangar did with Cabriana Mecandes. Mesaana did the same with Danelle. This is hardly original or strange, quite the opposite.

 

 

 

Why? What is the point?

 

 

the point would be to become Rand's adviser, obviously. that's what was his original plan. That's what Ishy did with Hawkwing. It was a natural plot for him. He didn't come to Rand to lead the BT - he knew nothing about it. and it would be completely natural for Rand to recruit Taim's help. Rand was alone and looking for male channelers to help him. Here Taim shows up. He is an experienced channeler and he is willing to help. Of course Rand would take him on. Moreover, this Taim makes a huge strategic decision on the spot when Rand takes him to the Farm. He shows Rand how to detect the ability to channel. This is what allows to grow the BT quickly. without it Rand would be stuck in the mire possibly for years. and Taim doesn't consult anyone about this decision. he just shows Rand how to detect channeling. Forsaken (including Ishy) don't normally tolerate such initiative. they treat their followers like dogs and demand total obedience. that's mentioned many times. Ishy/Moridin in particular does not tolerate uninvited initiative. when Jarna killed Tamra without his approval, he killed Jarna rather painfully (CoS, prologue)

 

 

Taim only leads the Black Tower because Rand put him in that position, and the Dragon made that decision on his own -- no one influenced him, or could be certain that he would give that position to Taim. Why would Moridin bother? Especially considering the risk. Taim is shorter (he is "almost as tall as Rand", whereas Moridin is "easily as tall as Rand"), which is a considerable failing in an Illusion. Remember how careful Sammael was in his dealings with Sevanna; he never let her touch him because the Illusion was so fragile. I do not recall any incident where Taim does anything of the kind. Rand actually pinned something on Taim's collar. It's too risky.

 

Moridin and Taim are almost the same height. If anything it's an argument for the theory that Taim=Moridin, not against it.

Next, the disguise might be made with TP, not OP and we know absolutely nothing about TP disguises. also, even an OP disguise can be very effective. it depends on how well it's made. That's evident in your example but also in Lanfear's case. When she is disguised as Else she is afraid to let Mat touch her. Presumably the disguise is rather flimsy. But when she is Kielle (who is very unlike her in appearance) she gets close to people and touches both Rand and Mat. Sammael even mentions this

Her skin became coppery but dull, her hair and eyes dark but flat; she appeared gaunt and frail, a once-beautiful Domani woman slowly losing a battle against illness. He barely stopped his lip from curling. One touch would prove the angular contours of that face were not hers—only the most subtle use of Illusion could pass that test—but Graendal seemed wedded to flamboyance. The next moment she was herself again, wearing a wry smile.

-LoC, Ch 6

so it's possible to weave a subtle OP disguise and if anybody can do it - one of the Forsaken surely can.

[capuga]

That's exactly what I think happened. Moreover, it can be proved beyond doubt regardless of whether Taim is Moridin or not. The current Taim is an impostor.

 

That's certainly giving your Taim is an impostor theory more credit than it deserves. Moridin is Ishy transmigrated or Cyndane is Lanfear transmigrated can be proven beyond a doubt. Taim is an impostor is a fun theory that the majority of us don't believe based on your poll (although I'm a bit surprised how many you've managed to convince lately - the Yes is Taim the same Taim vote was way ahead to start with).

 

Taim is not Moridin. It is the only theory that I am so strongly sure of that I will be absolutely shocked if he is. The arguments against Taim being Moridin are just too strong and take way to much work to explain away. The Taim is an impostor theory makes more sense but I still believe its much more likely that Taim is the same Taim that declared himself the Dragon Reborn.