Is Taim a Chosen?

[Sharaman]

well, this is a different issue. there is a hot debate on that one but whatever the answer is there (I'm not yet convinced either way myself), we know for sure that Taim is either Moridin himself or he is Moridin's man. But he is not a new Forsaken.

 

Fair enough and agreed, however there is the little thing of Kisman receiving orders from Taim, Demandred and Moridin separately which at least suggests strongly that they are three separate people.

 

 

yes, I know. This is definityely one of the strongest arguments why Taim is not Moridin but this can be explained away with some effort. Moridin may have wanted Kisman to learn his true face for some reason (say, in case he needed to command him as Moridin). He may have received some new information (like that fact that Rand had the access key with him) and Kisman may have been in some place where Taim was not supposed to be. It could be that the last of three orders was given in Far Madding (that's where Kisman is at the moment he recalls the orders) where Moridin's power disguise could not work because of the Guardian ter'angreal. There are lots of other things to consider too.

 

I think Moridins disguise as Taim is a True Power disguise, which I think would still work even in the Guardians reaches. I think Rand hints at this when he told the Aes Sedai that the Guardian only stops the One Power. Another thing I think foreshadows the True Power working in the Guardian is the fact that Rand was able to channel the True Power through an a'dam. So while Im all for Maxridin I dont think the Guardian can really count as a hindrance for Moridins disguise, he could still appear as Taim there if he wished I think.

That's a good point about the disguise being TP. But there is something that really bothers me about Rand's statement that the Guardian will not shield against TP. How can he possibly know that? The Guardian was supposedly made during the breaking (WH,To Lose the Sun) so after LT's time. So how would Rand know what it can do? and who made him an expert on TP anyway? he only used it once.

He's within the Guardian's saidin-blocking influence and presumably, he can't sense Saidin.

He may be able to sense TP, just as he did the one time he grabbed it.

[herid]

well, this is a different issue. there is a hot debate on that one but whatever the answer is there (I'm not yet convinced either way myself), we know for sure that Taim is either Moridin himself or he is Moridin's man. But he is not a new Forsaken.

 

Fair enough and agreed, however there is the little thing of Kisman receiving orders from Taim, Demandred and Moridin separately which at least suggests strongly that they are three separate people.

 

 

yes, I know. This is definityely one of the strongest arguments why Taim is not Moridin but this can be explained away with some effort. Moridin may have wanted Kisman to learn his true face for some reason (say, in case he needed to command him as Moridin). He may have received some new information (like that fact that Rand had the access key with him) and Kisman may have been in some place where Taim was not supposed to be. It could be that the last of three orders was given in Far Madding (that's where Kisman is at the moment he recalls the orders) where Moridin's power disguise could not work because of the Guardian ter'angreal. There are lots of other things to consider too.

 

I think Moridins disguise as Taim is a True Power disguise, which I think would still work even in the Guardians reaches. I think Rand hints at this when he told the Aes Sedai that the Guardian only stops the One Power. Another thing I think foreshadows the True Power working in the Guardian is the fact that Rand was able to channel the True Power through an a'dam. So while Im all for Maxridin I dont think the Guardian can really count as a hindrance for Moridins disguise, he could still appear as Taim there if he wished I think.

That's a good point about the disguise being TP. But there is something that really bothers me about Rand's statement that the Guardian will not shield against TP. How can he possibly know that? The Guardian was supposedly made during the breaking (WH,To Lose the Sun) so after LT's time. So how would Rand know what it can do? and who made him an expert on TP anyway? he only used it once.

He's within the Guardian's saidin-blocking influence and presumably, he can't sense Saidin.

He may be able to sense TP, just as he did the one time he grabbed it.

ah, that makes sense. I think you are right on this one.

[Randommer]

Picture this though. If everyone is so keen on the idea of Taim being Moridins pupil or right hand man, why then arent you all asking why Taims order is so different to Moridins order as a fault against that? Not a very fitting way to act if hes a bootlicker.

 

Being a pupil and learning from Ishy/Moridin does not make Taim a bootlicker. It doesn't even make him subserviant to Moridin (at least no more than the other Chosen are to the Nae'blis). Even if Taim is not a Chosen (which he likely isn't) he still views himself at or near that level. He will do what he's told like the other Forsaken do, but that doesn't make him a bootlicker.

 

He learned from Ishy and then was given the task of ruling the BT. As a (relatively) trusted underling, he is allowed to run things as he sees fit and he gives his own orders as he thinks is best. He could even have tried to kill Rand against Moridin's direct orders if he thought he could get away with it. Doesn't mean that he may not have learned under Moridin.

 

Hmmm... Yeah, I would be all for the Taim as Moridin's pupil thing, but imo there are a few things that are odd about Taim that that wouldn't explain.

1. The point that is raised in the quote above about Taim having been given the rule of the BT and a fair amount of autonomy. I don't think that fits if he's just a plain old pupil. I mean, the BT and the turning of so many channelers to the shadow gives Taim quite a big army, and its pretty much the most damaging blow to the light we've seen any DF or forsaken do so far (though granted we don't know what the deal with the red-veiled Aiel is yet). All I'm sayin is, if he was just a plain old pupil and not at forsaken status, then you'd think Moridin would be keeping a damn tight leash on him given that he's in such a powerful position.

 

2. LTT always had a really weird reaction when he saw Taim, way more so than any other character in the series, even other male channelers. It's been practically confirmed by BS that LT had some sort of soul-sensing/recognising capability (he used it in the EotW prologue) and his reaction to Taim always made it seem really like he knew him. Maybe he just recognised him as a DF, but he never reacted that way to other DFs; in fact he never recognised what they were at all. He used to go berserk whenever Taim appeared.

 

Now I know there's some issues with Taim actually being Moridin in disguise, or anyone else from the AoL, but there's something up is all I'm sayin.

[herid]

Picture this though. If everyone is so keen on the idea of Taim being Moridins pupil or right hand man, why then arent you all asking why Taims order is so different to Moridins order as a fault against that? Not a very fitting way to act if hes a bootlicker.

 

Being a pupil and learning from Ishy/Moridin does not make Taim a bootlicker. It doesn't even make him subserviant to Moridin (at least no more than the other Chosen are to the Nae'blis). Even if Taim is not a Chosen (which he likely isn't) he still views himself at or near that level. He will do what he's told like the other Forsaken do, but that doesn't make him a bootlicker.

 

He learned from Ishy and then was given the task of ruling the BT. As a (relatively) trusted underling, he is allowed to run things as he sees fit and he gives his own orders as he thinks is best. He could even have tried to kill Rand against Moridin's direct orders if he thought he could get away with it. Doesn't mean that he may not have learned under Moridin.

 

Hmmm... Yeah, I would be all for the Taim as Moridin's pupil thing, but imo there are a few things that are odd about Taim that that wouldn't explain.

1. The point that is raised in the quote above about Taim having been given the rule of the BT and a fair amount of autonomy. I don't think that fits if he's just a plain old pupil. I mean, the BT and the turning of so many channelers to the shadow gives Taim quite a big army, and its pretty much the most damaging blow to the light we've seen any DF or forsaken do so far (though granted we don't know what the deal with the red-veiled Aiel is yet). All I'm sayin is, if he was just a plain old pupil and not at forsaken status, then you'd think Moridin would be keeping a damn tight leash on him given that he's in such a powerful position.

 

2. LTT always had a really weird reaction when he saw Taim, way more so than any other character in the series, even other male channelers. It's been practically confirmed by BS that LT had some sort of soul-sensing/recognising capability (he used it in the EotW prologue) and his reaction to Taim always made it seem really like he knew him. Maybe he just recognised him as a DF, but he never reacted that way to other DFs; in fact he never recognised what they were at all. He used to go berserk whenever Taim appeared.

 

Now I know there's some issues with Taim actually being Moridin in disguise, or anyone else from the AoL, but there's something up is all I'm sayin.

those are good points, especially the soul recognition bit.

There is another moment that always struck me as extremely odd about Taim. when Rand institutes Asha'man and designates Taim to be the first Ashsa'man, Taim get extremely angry. This is a very strange reaction that I can not really understand. I can only see him reacting this way if he is either the original Taim who is extremely resentful because he declared himself a Dragon and now has to play second fiddle (that's what I thought on the first reading) or he is a Forsaken in disguise. I can't see anybody else reacting quite this way. but the first possibility can now be absolutely ruled out. whoever Taim is he definitely knows full well that he is not the true Dragon and never has been. He knew that from the start.

[Guest maverick81882]

I suspect that Taim is neither a chosen nor a simple servant. My suspicions have been building and they have further been reinforced by the recent developments in Midnight. My theory is as follows:

 

Taim attempted to become the Dragon Reborn much as he described to Rand during their initial encounter but failed and was captured by the Aes Sedai. En route to Tar Valon he was taken by Demandred and his followers. I believe that Taim was then converted to the Shadow through the process revealed to Egwene in her vision. I also believe this process has been slowly taking place within the Black Tower itself.

 

This theory would explain a number of issues. First, it would describe why Taim, a man who once proclaimed himself as the Dragon, has so totally gone to the Shadow; of course, he could have always been an imposter, but his actions as the false dragon were not what would be expected of a servant of shadow. If he were a forsaken,he certainly wouldn’t have been taken by the Aes Sedai simply by falling off a horse and being rounded up. Secondly, if he was under the control of Demandred then he would have been given the direction to let the “lord of chaos reign.” The only other explanation is that he is, in fact, Damandred, but I think this is doubtful. Finally, a conversion by the power to the shadow would explain why the Ashaman are changing.

 

I am new to the boards all but love the series. Feel free to let me know what your thoughts are on my theory.

[OptimusPrime]

I suspect that Taim is neither a chosen nor a simple servant. My suspicions have been building and they have further been reinforced by the recent developments in Midnight. My theory is as follows:

 

Taim attempted to become the Dragon Reborn much as he described to Rand during their initial encounter but failed and was captured by the Aes Sedai. En route to Tar Valon he was taken by Demandred and his followers. I believe that Taim was then converted to the Shadow through the process revealed to Egwene in her vision. I also believe this process has been slowly taking place within the Black Tower itself.

 

This theory would explain a number of issues. First, it would describe why Taim, a man who once proclaimed himself as the Dragon, has so totally gone to the Shadow; of course, he could have always been an imposter, but his actions as the false dragon were not what would be expected of a servant of shadow. If he were a forsaken,he certainly wouldn’t have been taken by the Aes Sedai simply by falling off a horse and being rounded up. Secondly, if he was under the control of Demandred then he would have been given the direction to let the “lord of chaos reign.” The only other explanation is that he is, in fact, Damandred, but I think this is doubtful. Finally, a conversion by the power to the shadow would explain why the Ashaman are changing.

 

I am new to the boards all but love the series. Feel free to let me know what your thoughts are on my theory.

 

Or Moridin! Moridin Moridin Moridin!

 

We know Taim isnt Demandred, RJ debunked it personally and theres the part in the Cleansing where Demandred sees Flynn but doesnt recognise him, whereas Taim knows Flynn. Thats been resaid a few times recently but you're new so its all good.

 

But seriously. Im 100% positive Taim has been dead since before Lord of Chaos, and that its Moridin we've been seeing all this time.

 

Common objections, and my points in retaliation:

 

-The conflicting orders to the Ashaman. Easily explained. This is Ishamael were talking about, I think nobody but the Chosen know Taim is Moridin, and hes playing his own lesser version of the Dark Ones "predicting the selfish" game by "passing them on" to Demandred.

 

-Why have 3 Forsaken in one place? Well we KNOW they are there. Osan'gar, Demandred and Moridin have interractions with them, so while it IS a valid question it doesnt poke any holes in the theory. Moridin wears the Taim face to test the water, see who would make a good Darkfriend, manipulate events to create opportunities to turn them. He then "passes them over" to Demandred, the Darkfriend Ashaman Team Leader if you will, who oversees "Taims private classes" while Moridin performs Nae'blis duties in the Blight, and if any of the Darkfriend Ashaman screw up (say, when Kisman and co fail to kill Rand at "Taims" order) Moridin would then show up with his own Nae'blis face (say, to tell Kisman its Rands possessions that are important). Osan'gar is the fly on the wall, the Chosen none of the Darkfriends know about, the snitch. "Moridin Moridin somebodys been saying this..."

 

-Taim and Moridins personalities are "too different." Yeah right. Taims personality is different to Taims personality if Rand is present. The rest of the time he openly acts like... well, like Moridin. Taim "actually leans forward in interest" when Rand talks about the Forsaken at the start of LoC. He "whispers in Rands ear" all the time, making him paranoid about Aes Sedai. And when Rand isnt at the Black Tower Taim is openly violent towards the Ashaman in front of Aes Sedai-cant remember who the Ashaman is, but one of them was about to protest against the Aes Sedai bonding them and Taim bludgeons them with the Power. Not to mention Pevara describes Taim as a predator in ToM. I would also say that when Ishamael used an alter ego to manipulate Artur Hawkwing, he would have seemed to have a different personality as well. Its called acting, where you try to not show your true personality in order to fool someone. Kind of like what Lanfear did to Rand in TGH, although we have heard of Ishamael doing it at least twice. Once to Hawkwing, who was incredibly Ta'veren, and to Mr Farstrider.

 

Points in favor of the theory:

 

-In Winters Heart prologue Taim has a dark aura following him that makes lighting dimmer. Only three individuals in the entire series have shown this; Taim, Rand and Moridin. Not Demandred, or anyone else.

 

-Taim is obviously super evil, as is Moridin, and yet we see both men go out of their way to help Rand. Moridin assists him in Shadar Logoth, Taim frees him from Dumais Wells. If Taim was so power greedy, then surely he would have left Rand so he could carry on his work at the Black Tower. But if it was Moridin, then he would know he needed to do something because Mesaana had influenced Rands kidnap and Moridin wouldnt trust her to do what HE would if he had Rand. Not to mention the fact that Taim managed to track the kidnapped Rand in the first place. We have already heard Moridin talk about tracking a Ta'veren by their affect on the Pattern.

 

-Taims introduction. Not exactly new, its kind of obvious, but a lot of people still dont see it how it is. Plus its my favorite Rand mistake ever.

 

Bashere: Im headhunting Taim.

Rand: You cant have him, hes mine. Oh look, here he is.

Taim: Alright lads.

Bashere: You're Taim? Listen to my tone of voice, it sounds doubtful.

Rand: Bashere has doubts?!? Not good... how to prove someone is who they are... Okay Taim Ive heard of your channeling. Ive also got a high level of paranoia where I think the Forsaken will come here-who by the way can channel, which is a prerequisite of them impersonating YOU-so I want you to channel in front of me.

Taim: *holds the Source, tests Flynn*

Rand: Hmm. Let me summarize. Man I think can channel arrives, isnt recognized by Bashere the bounty hunter, confirms ability to channel. My first hand experience of this man do not look very good for him. And yet... my tertiary experience of this man tells me that he could channel when he proclaimed himself. I'll go with the less reliable source. Taim, while you have confirmed yourself as a Forsaken suspect by channeling, and while the man sent to hunt you personally with nine thousand men behind him questions you, I find that you are who you say you are. Here, take my men who can channel, who I want you to make into the sort of weapon the Shadow would make of them, but for me to use instead. Be careful, they can channel, just like you, which means they could be Forsaken. Not you though my man, you of course are NOT Forsaken, you are Taim. How do I know this? BECAUSE YOU CAN CHANNEL! Have fun with my nukes.

 

So yeah. Fairly convinced hes Moridin. If not though and this is some uber red herring-which I doubt, but IS possible-I would hazard a guess that Taim is a Ta'veren gone Dark, that the Wheel WANTED to go Dark and perform some Light task subconsciously.

[OptimusPrime]

Oh yeah, and after Rand loses his hand, he AND Moridin both start holding their hand behind their back. And in ToM Taim was holding one behind his back as well. I smegging KNEW that was going to happen.

[Kal-El814]

That's a good point about the disguise being TP. But there is something that really bothers me about Rand's statement that the Guardian will not shield against TP. How can he possibly know that? The Guardian was supposedly made during the breaking (WH,To Lose the Sun) so after LT's time. So how would Rand know what it can do? and who made him an expert on TP anyway? he only used it once.

 

Rand could channel the TP when bound by the Domination Band, it's logical for him to assume that things that hold back the OP have no effect on the TP.

[herid]

That's a good point about the disguise being TP. But there is something that really bothers me about Rand's statement that the Guardian will not shield against TP. How can he possibly know that? The Guardian was supposedly made during the breaking (WH,To Lose the Sun) so after LT's time. So how would Rand know what it can do? and who made him an expert on TP anyway? he only used it once.

 

Rand could channel the TP when bound by the Domination Band, it's logical for him to assume that things that hold back the OP have no effect on the TP.

It would need to be more than an assumption. He was very certain about it. somebody else gave a better explanation above. Inside the guardian he couldn't even sense saidin, but he might have been able to sense TP without embracing it.

[Kal-El814]

It would need to be more than an assumption. He was very certain about it. somebody else gave a better explanation above. Inside the guardian he couldn't even sense saidin, but he might have been able to sense TP without embracing it.

 

Yeah, I'd need to re-read the chapter where Rand channels the TP. I don't remember how his use of it was worded and how he could sense it before he used it, but I think there's a reference to the TP calling to Rand, though I don't know if that means he can sense it or if he's just temped by it.

 

Either way, I think that Rand's confidence would be in character even if he's making an assumption and can't sense the TP at that moment.

[Arc]

If Taim is Morridin as so many claim, where's the Saa? Shouldn't it pass his eyes regularly? Someone should have noticed it at the very least, and wondered what it was. And don't go like: yeah but the only dudes who see him frequently are his dreadlords in training/favored Ash'man, cause that's not the case. Rand saw him several times short after his first meeting, the ash'man loyal to Logain could have told Logain who would have told Rand in turn. Taim has interacted with several AS, He's leader of BT and doens't spend all his time with his favorites I suppose, etc. People don't need to know what it is to think it strange.

And as far as I know one can't stop/control the Saa current passing the eyes. It has also been said (in a forsaken POV somewhere) that Morridin/Ishy has the Saa running in long streams, very distinctive.

 

about the Mirror of Mists (someone mentioned it above, didn't read the entire thread, so sorry incase this is irrelevant):

He might have disguist it with MoM, but not with the one power, that would have been noticed sooner or later. And about the MoM being of the TP: to hold it up for a very long time would cause the Saa to become so big He'd go blind eventualy. Also if the MoM was created by the TP, I think (don't know really) the Saa would have still been in his eyes, dispite the mirror.

 

.. so, IMO Taim still isn't Morridin.

[herid]

If Taim is Morridin as so many claim, where's the Saa? Shouldn't it pass his eyes regularly? Someone should have noticed it at the very least, and wondered what it was. And don't go like: yeah but the only dudes who see him frequently are his dreadlords in training/favored Ash'man, cause that's not the case. Rand saw him several times short after his first meeting, the ash'man loyal to Logain could have told Logain who would have told Rand in turn. Taim has interacted with several AS, He's leader of BT and doens't spend all his time with his favorites I suppose, etc. People don't need to know what it is to think it strange.

And as far as I know one can't stop/control the Saa current passing the eyes. It has also been said (in a forsaken POV somewhere) that Morridin/Ishy has the Saa running in long streams, very distinctive.

 

about the Mirror of Mists (someone mentioned it above, didn't read the entire thread, so sorry incase this is irrelevant):

He might have disguist it with MoM, but not with the one power, that would have been noticed sooner or later. And about the MoM being of the TP: to hold it up for a very long time would cause the Saa to become so big He'd go blind eventualy. Also if the MoM was created by the TP, I think (don't know really) the Saa would have still been in his eyes, dispite the mirror.

 

.. so, IMO Taim still isn't Morridin.

the saa thing proves nothing.

Taim has dark eyes so saa would not be visible. Moridin has blue eyes so the saa is visible. and whether OP or TP is used to create a disguise the weaves are tied off of course so no extra saa would be accumulating if it's made with TP.

[Arc]

If Taim is Morridin as so many claim, where's the Saa? Shouldn't it pass his eyes regularly? Someone should have noticed it at the very least, and wondered what it was. And don't go like: yeah but the only dudes who see him frequently are his dreadlords in training/favored Ash'man, cause that's not the case. Rand saw him several times short after his first meeting, the ash'man loyal to Logain could have told Logain who would have told Rand in turn. Taim has interacted with several AS, He's leader of BT and doens't spend all his time with his favorites I suppose, etc. People don't need to know what it is to think it strange.

And as far as I know one can't stop/control the Saa current passing the eyes. It has also been said (in a forsaken POV somewhere) that Morridin/Ishy has the Saa running in long streams, very distinctive.

 

about the Mirror of Mists (someone mentioned it above, didn't read the entire thread, so sorry incase this is irrelevant):

He might have disguist it with MoM, but not with the one power, that would have been noticed sooner or later. And about the MoM being of the TP: to hold it up for a very long time would cause the Saa to become so big He'd go blind eventualy. Also if the MoM was created by the TP, I think (don't know really) the Saa would have still been in his eyes, dispite the mirror.

 

.. so, IMO Taim still isn't Morridin.

the saa thing proves nothing.

Taim has dark eyes so saa would not be visible. Moridin has blue eyes so the saa is visible. and whether OP or TP is used to create a disguise the weaves are tied off of course so no extra saa would be accumulating if it's made with TP.

 

having dark eyes doesn't coceal it, Saa isn't restricted to the pupils, it is said to travel across the eyes, so also the white parts I should think.

[herid]

If Taim is Morridin as so many claim, where's the Saa? Shouldn't it pass his eyes regularly? Someone should have noticed it at the very least, and wondered what it was. And don't go like: yeah but the only dudes who see him frequently are his dreadlords in training/favored Ash'man, cause that's not the case. Rand saw him several times short after his first meeting, the ash'man loyal to Logain could have told Logain who would have told Rand in turn. Taim has interacted with several AS, He's leader of BT and doens't spend all his time with his favorites I suppose, etc. People don't need to know what it is to think it strange.

And as far as I know one can't stop/control the Saa current passing the eyes. It has also been said (in a forsaken POV somewhere) that Morridin/Ishy has the Saa running in long streams, very distinctive.

 

about the Mirror of Mists (someone mentioned it above, didn't read the entire thread, so sorry incase this is irrelevant):

He might have disguist it with MoM, but not with the one power, that would have been noticed sooner or later. And about the MoM being of the TP: to hold it up for a very long time would cause the Saa to become so big He'd go blind eventualy. Also if the MoM was created by the TP, I think (don't know really) the Saa would have still been in his eyes, dispite the mirror.

 

.. so, IMO Taim still isn't Morridin.

the saa thing proves nothing.

Taim has dark eyes so saa would not be visible. Moridin has blue eyes so the saa is visible. and whether OP or TP is used to create a disguise the weaves are tied off of course so no extra saa would be accumulating if it's made with TP.

 

having dark eyes doesn't coceal it, Saa isn't restricted to the pupils, it is said to travel across the eyes, so also the white parts I should think.

that's never stated anyplace. the whites of the eyes are never mentioned when saa is described. for all we know it's restricted to the irises. the saa issue is of course an extremely obvious one in regards to this theory and was one of the very first things addressed when this theory was put forward:

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2001/07/trusted-smiler-with-knife-taimmoridin.html

 

Note: I'm not sure if this link refers to the very first time the theory was suggested but I believe it's one of the earliest.

[Arc]

- didn't know, thx.

 

 

.. I remain on the Taim is not Morridin side though :). -

[herid]

- didn't know, thx.

 

 

no, problem. actually, when I first read the description of saa I thought it should cover the whole eye too. that might even be true - we just don't know. but even then I'm sure a power disguise that can transform a person's entire appearance can easily hide something like that too.

[OptimusPrime]

Sa'a wouldnt appear in the disguise because you arent seeing Moridins real eyes. You wouldnt see the sa'a through an illusion, you wouldnt see it through Moridins disguise either (although I dont think Moridins disguise is an illusion). Part of the disguise is to hide his real eyes

[Elwynn]

For the Taim=Morridin people,

 

What about Taim having the sigil of a guantleted hand gripping three lighting bolts (either Be'lal or Sammael's sigil) on each step to his 'throne room'?

 

Just hadn't seen it mentioned. To me it goes against Morridin as Taim. Though...

 

Be'lal could be said to have helped ishy confront rand in the stone to get him to take callandor. Maybe he's honoring his help, or gave his title/rank to Taim when he died. Off the deep end now.

[herid]

For the Taim=Morridin people,

 

What about Taim having the sigil of a guantleted hand gripping three lighting bolts (either Be'lal or Sammael's sigil) on each step to his 'throne room'?

 

Just hadn't seen it mentioned. To me it goes against Morridin as Taim. Though...

 

Be'lal could be said to have helped ishy confront rand in the stone to get him to take callandor. Maybe he's honoring his help, or gave his title/rank to Taim when he died. Off the deep end now.

why would it go against Taim=Moridin?! this is one of the best argument for it. this is clearly a Forsaken sigil. Both bel'al and Sammael used it.

Broad stone stairs rose to a wide landing in front of tall twinned doors. Each bore a gauntleted fist gripping three lightning bolts, carved large and gilded.

 

- Knife of Dreams, Epilogue

 

Nynaeve saw the sigil painted [on the carriage door]. A silver-gauntleted fist clutching jagged lightning bolts. She supposed it was High Lord Samon's [be’lal’s] sign...

 

- The Dragon Reborn, Bait For the Net

 

His [sammael's] chair was heavy wood, carved with...a steel-gauntleted fist clasping lightning at the back's peak.

 

- Fires of Heaven, A Silver Arrow

note that Taim's sigil is golden while Bel'al's and Sammael's are silver/steel. If anything this would indicate that he considers himself to be their superior.

[capuga]

For the Taim=Morridin people,

 

What about Taim having the sigil of a guantleted hand gripping three lighting bolts (either Be'lal or Sammael's sigil) on each step to his 'throne room'?

 

Just hadn't seen it mentioned. To me it goes against Morridin as Taim. Though...

 

Be'lal could be said to have helped ishy confront rand in the stone to get him to take callandor. Maybe he's honoring his help, or gave his title/rank to Taim when he died. Off the deep end now.

why would it go against Taim=Moridin?! this is one of the best argument for it. this is clearly a Forsaken sigil. Both bel'al and Sammael used it.

Broad stone stairs rose to a wide landing in front of tall twinned doors. Each bore a gauntleted fist gripping three lightning bolts, carved large and gilded.

 

- Knife of Dreams, Epilogue

 

Nynaeve saw the sigil painted [on the carriage door]. A silver-gauntleted fist clutching jagged lightning bolts. She supposed it was High Lord Samon's [be’lal’s] sign...

 

- The Dragon Reborn, Bait For the Net

 

His [sammael's] chair was heavy wood, carved with...a steel-gauntleted fist clasping lightning at the back's peak.

 

- Fires of Heaven, A Silver Arrow

note that Taim's sigil is golden while Bel'al's and Sammael's are silver/steel. If anything this would indicate that he considers himself to be their superior.

 

Or that he thinks gold looks cool and Be'lal and Sammael think silver and steel look cool. We don't have any real evidence that the colors indicate rank.

[herid]

For the Taim=Morridin people,

 

What about Taim having the sigil of a guantleted hand gripping three lighting bolts (either Be'lal or Sammael's sigil) on each step to his 'throne room'?

 

Just hadn't seen it mentioned. To me it goes against Morridin as Taim. Though...

 

Be'lal could be said to have helped ishy confront rand in the stone to get him to take callandor. Maybe he's honoring his help, or gave his title/rank to Taim when he died. Off the deep end now.

why would it go against Taim=Moridin?! this is one of the best argument for it. this is clearly a Forsaken sigil. Both bel'al and Sammael used it.

Broad stone stairs rose to a wide landing in front of tall twinned doors. Each bore a gauntleted fist gripping three lightning bolts, carved large and gilded.

 

- Knife of Dreams, Epilogue

 

Nynaeve saw the sigil painted [on the carriage door]. A silver-gauntleted fist clutching jagged lightning bolts. She supposed it was High Lord Samon's [be’lal’s] sign...

 

- The Dragon Reborn, Bait For the Net

 

His [sammael's] chair was heavy wood, carved with...a steel-gauntleted fist clasping lightning at the back's peak.

 

- Fires of Heaven, A Silver Arrow

note that Taim's sigil is golden while Bel'al's and Sammael's are silver/steel. If anything this would indicate that he considers himself to be their superior.

 

Or that he thinks gold looks cool and Be'lal and Sammael think silver and steel look cool. We don't have any real evidence that the colors indicate rank.

it usually does. but in any case, this is definitely a Forsaken sigil - that much is clear.

[Elwynn]

For the Taim=Morridin people,

 

What about Taim having the sigil of a guantleted hand gripping three lighting bolts (either Be'lal or Sammael's sigil) on each step to his 'throne room'?

 

Just hadn't seen it mentioned. To me it goes against Morridin as Taim. Though...

 

Be'lal could be said to have helped ishy confront rand in the stone to get him to take callandor. Maybe he's honoring his help, or gave his title/rank to Taim when he died. Off the deep end now.

why would it go against Taim=Moridin?! this is one of the best argument for it. this is clearly a Forsaken sigil. Both bel'al and Sammael used it.

Broad stone stairs rose to a wide landing in front of tall twinned doors. Each bore a gauntleted fist gripping three lightning bolts, carved large and gilded.

 

- Knife of Dreams, Epilogue

 

Nynaeve saw the sigil painted [on the carriage door]. A silver-gauntleted fist clutching jagged lightning bolts. She supposed it was High Lord Samon's [be’lal’s] sign...

 

- The Dragon Reborn, Bait For the Net

 

His [sammael's] chair was heavy wood, carved with...a steel-gauntleted fist clasping lightning at the back's peak.

 

- Fires of Heaven, A Silver Arrow

note that Taim's sigil is golden while Bel'al's and Sammael's are silver/steel. If anything this would indicate that he considers himself to be their superior.

 

Thanks for looking those up.

I think it goes against Taim=Morridin because why on earth would Morridin use the other forsaken's insignia. Seems more like a man who knows his better's power, and tries to imitate it.

[herid]

 

Thanks for looking those up.

I think it goes against Taim=Morridin because why on earth would Morridin use the other forsaken's insignia.

he is not using other Forsaken insignia. he is using his own Forsaken insignia, being a Forsaken himself, you know .

[Elwynn]

 

Thanks for looking those up.

I think it goes against Taim=Morridin because why on earth would Morridin use the other forsaken's insignia.

he is not using other Forsaken insignia. he is using his own Forsaken insignia, being a Forsaken himself, you know .

 

I'm getting confused. Are you telling me the hand gripping lightning is the sigil all the foresaken chose as their symbol?

 

I don't think that's right. Morridin chooses red and black to denote what's his, castle, sevants, decor etc...

Lanfear liked to wear white and silver, with silver stars and crescent moons (as 'daughter of the night')

 

Not sure what you're trying to say exactly.

[herid]

 

Thanks for looking those up.

I think it goes against Taim=Morridin because why on earth would Morridin use the other forsaken's insignia.

he is not using other Forsaken insignia. he is using his own Forsaken insignia, being a Forsaken himself, you know .

 

I'm getting confused. Are you telling me the hand gripping lightning is the sigil all the foresaken chose as their symbol?

what I'm saying is that a hand gripping a lightning is a sigil that Forsaken use. maybe some of them, maybe all of them, that's not clear. but at least two of them used it for sure. I don't claim anything more.

so when we see another character use such a sigil the obvious interpretation is that it's a Forsaken.

 

of course they may use other symbols as well and are allowed to like particular colors. there is nothing wrong with that. Taim himself likes red and black too. that's mentioned several times and is another reason why many think that he is Moridin. by your logic he is not allowed to both use the sigil and use those colors?! well, he does.