where did the prophecies originate?

[Tud]

Hello everyone,

 

I've a fan of WOT for years and have re-read the books many times. I've also been an occasional poster here a Dragonmount for a long time. I've read many threads on various aspects of Randland, especially the ones dealing with the prophecies and I have a question..

 

Where did the Karathenon (SP?)CYcle, the Aiel phophecies dealing with the Caracarn, the Sea folk propheicies and the Jendar prophecies originate? What I mean is when and where did they come into being. The only direct reference I can recall in in The Shadow Rising when Jonai takes his leave. In that instance what is said clearly implies that the Aes Sedia with the foretelling only sees that the dragon will be reborn; there's nothing about all the other "signs", potents and events which we now know are supposed to happen.

 

So, where and when did they come into being..Who had the foretelling?

 

Anyone have any information regarding this?

 

tud

[Terez]

The KC is a collection of Foretellings given mostly during the Breaking. The Prophecy of Rhuidean is also Foretelling, as are the Prophecies of the Shadow. Presumably the Jendai prophecies are the same. It wouldn't be dreams because they are not so concrete as Foretellings.

[Tud]

How do we know that the KC was compiled during "The Breraking"? Also, if it is now an established set of prophecies, when did the foretellings stop so that they could be consolidated into the "Cycle"?

 

I know that this seems like a small thing, but for some reason, it bugs me..about on the same level as the fact that the central conciet of WOT..that everything that has happened will happen again has a rather large whole in it..That being the breaking...Unless there's a second breaking, reshaping the world exactly as it is was in Age Of Legends, then the cyclic nature of the Wheel doesn't work..Not to mention things like the Gaidien which didn't exist in the AOL, but exist now...We're supposed to accpt that the events of the third age are so far removed from the AOL that things like Gaidein aren't even remebered? I don't think so..

 

tud

[Finnssss22]

How do we know that the KC was compiled during "The Breraking"? Also, if it is now an established set of prophecies, when did the foretellings stop so that they could be consolidated into the "Cycle"?

 

To begin with the Prophecies or I should say the KC was written in High Chant in the Old Tongue and anything said or printed in the common tongue is merely a translation of those original writtings.

 

We also have RJ saying this about the Horn:

"The Horn of Valere was known in the Age of Legends, though it was an artifact of an earlier age, but it was never used in the Age of Legends... It was later recovered and sealed up with the Dragon Banner because along with the Foretellings that made up the Prophecies of the Dragon was one saying that it must be."

 

As far as the Essanik cycle goes, there are two options imo.

1) That it is newer and is only about 1100 years old and is only comprised of damane foretellings.

or

2) It is the Seanchan translation of the KC with Damane foretellings added to it.

 

 

According to BS, the EC it is a collection of Damane only foretellings. Also, according to other quotes from Seanchan characters, the EC differs greatly from the KC, hence why they believe the KC is corrupted. This could just be differences in translation

 

 

 

I know that this seems like a small thing, but for some reason, it bugs me..about on the same level as the fact that the central conciet of WOT..that everything that has happened will happen again has a rather large whole in it..That being the breaking...Unless there's a second breaking, reshaping the world exactly as it is was in Age Of Legends, then the cyclic nature of the Wheel doesn't work..Not to mention things like the Gaidien which didn't exist in the AOL, but exist now...We're supposed to accpt that the events of the third age are so far removed from the AOL that things like Gaidein aren't even remebered? I don't think so..

 

tud

 

Gaidein weren't remembered because they didn't exist, there was no such thing as a Warder bond in the AoL, it is something newly discovered in this age just like the healing of stilling/gentling among a few others. More than one Forsaken have made comments about these new talents. Demandred's PoV during the cleansing of Saidin in WH for example is a real good one.

[Terez]

How do we know that the KC was compiled during "The Breraking"? Also, if it is now an established set of prophecies, when did the foretellings stop so that they could be consolidated into the "Cycle"?

 

To begin with the Prophecies or I should say the KC was written in High Chant in the Old Tongue and anything said or printed in the common tongue is merely a translation of those original writtings.

Some were in High Chant, some weren't.

 

As far as the Essanik cycle goes, there are two options imo.

1) That it is newer and is only about 1100 years old and is only comprised of damane foretellings.

or

2) It is the Seanchan translation of the KC with Damane foretellings added to it.

The second is not an option. We know they are separate.

 

Gaidein weren't remembered because they didn't exist, there was no such thing as a Warder bond in the AoL, it is something newly discovered in this age just like the healing of stilling/gentling among a few others. More than one Forsaken have made comments about these new talents. Demandred's PoV during the cleansing of Saidin in WH for example is a real good one.

Not really. The Moridin POV in TPOD2 is helpful, though.

[Finnssss22]

Some were in High Chant, some weren't.

 

Source?

Linda, over at The Thirteenth Depository thinks differently and I tend to agree with her on it.

"As the Prophecies are in the Old Tongue, and in High Chant to boot, they are very difficult to decipher, and chancy to follow"

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/03/prohecies-of-dragon.html#karaethon

 

The second is not an option. We know they are separate.

 

Fair enough, so they are just a collection of damane only foretelling's then as BS told us.

[Terez]

Some were in High Chant, some weren't.

 

Source?

Linda, over at The Thirteenth Depository thinks differently and I tend to agree with her on it.

"As the Prophecies are in the Old Tongue, and in High Chant to boot, they are very difficult to decipher, and chancy to follow"

http://13depository.....html#karaethon

Perhaps you should use the books as a source rather than depending on Linda. Do you know how to use Ideal Seek?

[Finnssss22]

Perhaps you should use the books as a source rather than depending on Linda. Do you know how to use Ideal Seek?

 

All the prophecies are in High Chant or they wouldn't read like poems, that is what High Chant is.

High Chant is not another language, it's simply speaking the Old Tongue or common in poetic form and license.

 

Maybe I'm mistaken but I don't recall seeing a single prophecy that wasn't poetic.

 

Even the foretelling Tuon received before arriving in Randland was given in High Chant, in common of course but still in poetic/High Chant form.

[Terez]

Perhaps you should use the books as a source rather than depending on Linda. Do you know how to use Ideal Seek?

 

All the prophecies are in High Chant or they wouldn't read like poems, that is what High Chant is.

High Chant is not another language, it's simply speaking the Old Tongue or common in poetic form and license.

 

Maybe I'm mistaken but I don't recall seeing a single prophecy that wasn't poetic.

Again, do you know how to use Ideal Seek? I can think of two times right off the top of my head where it's stated that only some of the prophecies are in High Chant, but I am not understanding your resistance to looking it up yourself.

[Finnssss22]

 

Again, do you know how to use Ideal Seek? I can think of two times right off the top of my head where it's stated that only some of the prophecies are in High Chant, but I am not understanding your resistance to looking it up yourself.

 

Yes IS is a good tool but I honestly can't recall hearing of a prophecy that wasn't delivered in a poetic form or license.

 

If you can think of one, than please share it.

[Terez]

Again, do you know how to use Ideal Seek? I can think of two times right off the top of my head where it's stated that only some of the prophecies are in High Chant, but I am not understanding your resistance to looking it up yourself.

 

Yes IS is a good tool but I honestly can't recall hearing of a prophecy that wasn't delivered in a poetic form or license.

 

If you can think of one, than please share it.

I was trying to suggest that you use Ideal Seek to search 'High Chant' and see what you come up with. The two quotes I'm thinking of are in early books, so you shouldn't have to search long.

[Finnssss22]

 

I was trying to suggest that you use Ideal Seek to search 'High Chant' and see what you come up with. The two quotes I'm thinking of are in early books, so you shouldn't have to search long.

 

I went through them all and I can't find any that are the actual Prophecies word for word, just that characters Pov interpretation of them.

 

I also just went through the entire list of Prophecies and there's not one that isn't in poetic form.

 

If you think you know of one word for word, then share it, if not, I'm moving on with my opinion in tact.

[Terez]

I doubt anyone much cares about your opinion, really. I was just trying the old 'teach a man to fish' approach, since you seem to like educating everyone about things, and I figure these would be good skills for you to have. But since that failed, here you go:

 

"In the great libraries," Thom said slowly. "Any number of translations, and even in the Old Tongue, here and there." Rand started to ask if there was any way for him to find one, but the gleeman went on. "The Old Tongue has music in it, but too many even of the nobles are impatient with listening to it these days. Nobles are all expected to know the Old Tongue, but many only learn enough to impress people who don't. Translations don't have the same sound, unless they're in High Chant, and sometimes that changes meanings even more than most translations."

"Perhaps I will, Mistress Trakand. Perhaps. But neither my composing nor the Ogier's book will make much difference in the long run. Our stories will not survive, in the long run. When the next Age comes —" He grimaced, and tugged one of his mustaches. "Come to think of it, that may be no more than a year or two off. How is the end of an Age marked? It cannot always be a cataclysm on the order of the Breaking. But then, if the Prophecies are to be believed, this one will be. That is the trouble with prophecy. The original is always in the Old Tongue, and maybe High Chant as well: if you don't know what a thing means beforehand, there's no way to puzzle it out. Does it mean what it says, or is it a flowery way of saying something entirely different?"

Both quotes make it clear that only some of them are in High Chant.

[Finnssss22]

I doubt anyone much cares about your opinion, really. I was just trying the old 'teach a man to fish' approach, since you seem to like educating everyone about things, and I figure these would be good skills for you to have. But since that failed, here you go:

 

"In the great libraries," Thom said slowly. "Any number of translations, and even in the Old Tongue, here and there." Rand started to ask if there was any way for him to find one, but the gleeman went on. "The Old Tongue has music in it, but too many even of the nobles are impatient with listening to it these days. Nobles are all expected to know the Old Tongue, but many only learn enough to impress people who don't. Translations don't have the same sound, unless they're in High Chant, and sometimes that changes meanings even more than most translations."

"Perhaps I will, Mistress Trakand. Perhaps. But neither my composing nor the Ogier's book will make much difference in the long run. Our stories will not survive, in the long run. When the next Age comes —" He grimaced, and tugged one of his mustaches. "Come to think of it, that may be no more than a year or two off. How is the end of an Age marked? It cannot always be a cataclysm on the order of the Breaking. But then, if the Prophecies are to be believed, this one will be. That is the trouble with prophecy. The original is always in the Old Tongue, and maybe High Chant as well: if you don't know what a thing means beforehand, there's no way to puzzle it out. Does it mean what it says, or is it a flowery way of saying something entirely different?"

Both quotes make it clear that only some of them are in High Chant.

 

 

Actually, I did find those but neither struck me as proof of anything.

 

The first, Thom is talking about translations and seems to be implying that translating them to anything but High Chant changes them. I take this as translating from High chant to High chant is always better than going from High Chant to regular.

 

The second can be read as saying that they're always in High Chant as well, the distinction is not clear.

Especially when he then goes on to talk about it all being so "flowery".

 

Like I said, if we find an original Prophecy as written, that doesn't have poetic license to it then I'll change my opinion.

If it looks like a Duck and quacks like a Duck...

[Terez]

I doubt anyone much cares about your opinion, really. I was just trying the old 'teach a man to fish' approach, since you seem to like educating everyone about things, and I figure these would be good skills for you to have. But since that failed, here you go:

 

"In the great libraries," Thom said slowly. "Any number of translations, and even in the Old Tongue, here and there." Rand started to ask if there was any way for him to find one, but the gleeman went on. "The Old Tongue has music in it, but too many even of the nobles are impatient with listening to it these days. Nobles are all expected to know the Old Tongue, but many only learn enough to impress people who don't. Translations don't have the same sound, unless they're in High Chant, and sometimes that changes meanings even more than most translations."

Both quotes make it clear that only some of them are in High Chant.

Actually, I did find those but neither struck me as proof of anything.

 

The first, Thom is talking about translations and seems to be implying that translating them to anything but High Chant changes them. I take this as translating from High chant to High chant is always better than going from High Chant to regular.

Indeed, but it shows that only some translations are in High Chant, not all.

 

"Perhaps I will, Mistress Trakand. Perhaps. But neither my composing nor the Ogier's book will make much difference in the long run. Our stories will not survive, in the long run. When the next Age comes —" He grimaced, and tugged one of his mustaches. "Come to think of it, that may be no more than a year or two off. How is the end of an Age marked? It cannot always be a cataclysm on the order of the Breaking. But then, if the Prophecies are to be believed, this one will be. That is the trouble with prophecy. The original is always in the Old Tongue, and maybe High Chant as well: if you don't know what a thing means beforehand, there's no way to puzzle it out. Does it mean what it says, or is it a flowery way of saying something entirely different?"

The second can be read as saying that they're always in High Chant as well, the distinction is not clear.

No, it's quite clear. The originals are 'maybe' in High Chant, which means that they are not always in High Chant. There is no other way to interpret that line other than to assume that Thom just doesn't know, which is pretty obviously not the case.

 

However, even if there were a logical reason to question that interpretation, it would still be completely unfounded to claim that all of the prophecies are in High Chant.

[Evoke]

As to why there could be enough prophesies to fill a book. Remember that this is a climactic change in the turning of the wheel, and so there are bound to be an upswing in people with the ability to foretell the coming age. Heralding what is to come. Aviendha has already had a taste of what is to come.

[Finnssss22]

 

However, even if there were a logical reason to question that interpretation, it would still be completely unfounded to claim that all of the prophecies are in High Chant.

 

...except that all the Prophecies, as written, are poetic in nature, meaning in High Chant.

 

Find an original Prophecy, as written, that isn't poetic and I'll apologize for my opinion and admit wrong thankfully.

[Terez]

However, even if there were a logical reason to question that interpretation, it would still be completely unfounded to claim that all of the prophecies are in High Chant.

 

...except that all the Prophecies, as written, are poetic in nature, meaning in High Chant.

 

Find an original Prophecy, as written, that isn't poetic and I'll apologize for my opinion and admit wrong thankfully.

From a logical perspective, that's a rather fallacious way of approaching the matter. Just saying.

[Finnssss22]

 

From a logical perspective, that's a rather fallacious way of approaching the matter. Just saying.

 

 

...and you have a nice day as well.

[Tud]

I think we are getting off course here with the debate about "high Chant". Where did the prophecies originate and where'd they come from. We know that the banner and the horn were tied to the Aes Sedia's foertelling in the Hall Of Servant's, but nothing else regarding any of the others.

 

When were they codified,what was the cutoff date for inclusion, by whom and why just these prophecies?

 

For instance, when did the prophecy about the Stone Of Tear come into being or the ones about Callandor?

 

tud

[Terez]

Diendre had apparently already had a Foretelling or two about Callandor by the time we see them in the Hall of the Servants (this is about 70 years into the Breaking), but they hadn't yet built the Stone of Tear, so they decided to deal with the Eye first before worrying about that. We don't even know exactly when the Stone was built - some time during or right after the Breaking is all we know. It's much the same with the prophecies for the most part, though we know that the Jendai Prophecies weren't given until after the Breaking was over. We don't know when the cut-off date was, or when they were compiled, or what the criteria were for choosing which prophecies to include.

[Tud]

Dindre..Ah, good that was the name I was searching for..Thank you, Terez. As for the rest of your post, yep, that's what I feared, we're never going to know when the KC came into being or when the prohpevies contained in it ceased.