Egwene al'Vere = Latra Posae reborn

[Mr Ares]

Of course it would be better to come up with a plan before breaking the seals. And if Egwene is opposing him because he does not have a plan, she should wait until meeting him at the FoM to see whether she should oppose him or not, based on whether he has come up with a plan or not.

No, she should oppose him from that meeting until he has a plan.

 

Plan on what to do about the seals if you prefer, and about the Last Battle in general. Egwene clearly says before this that Rand cannot break the seals which is what he is answering her about. No mention of his plan to reseal the DO is made.

But there isn't much planning to be done about the seals. Just because she doesn't say "let's plan what we are to do about the Dark One" doesn't mean that isn't what she meant. Clearly, beating Shai'tan, sealing the Bore is what they were talking about - breaking the seals was a part of that.

 

And what reason does he give in his letters to convince the various rulers to meet together.

Talk about the Last Battle. Really, he had to gather some of them anyway (he found King Alsalam, not Egwene, and the Borderlanders were sitting in FM for him so she couldn't gather them), so it's no stretch to say he could get the rest with precious little effort if he wanted to.

 

There could be ta'veren influence in there, but I feel that Egwene is perfectly capable of acting as she is without that influence.

Of course, that's how ta'veren works. If it can't happen without ta'veren, it still can't happen with. Ta'veren changes probability, not possbility.

 

Do you mean their first meeting or the meeting to come at the FoM? If it's the latter you are talking about, then I disagree as she has no way of knowing if he has figured out his plan or not, as he said he would. If it turns out that he has figured out his plan when they meet again, then she is going to feel pretty stupid in front of all the rulers that she convinced to help stop him, since it turns out there is no reason to oppose him after all.

She'll also feel pretty stupid if she cannot stop Rand doing something stupid. She needs to prepare. Rand said he didn't have a plan, but was breaking the seals anyway in a month, and hoped he would think of a plan. She said they needed to talk about this, and make plans, Rand refused. So Rand has refused to explain his reasons, refused to plan, admitted he doesn't have a plan yet, and yet plans to do something insanely dangerous. From that point onwards, Egwene would be derelict in her duty if she didn't act to stop him. Maybe she's wrong about the seals, maybe they do need to be broken, but that's not important. Rand doesn't have a plan, yet is going ahead anyway, gambling with all their lives. Now, if he does come up with a plan, then really there's no harm done. If he doesn't come up with a plan by the FoM, then Egwene shows up and Rand breaks the seals and she can't stop him. Then he sits around trying to figure out what to do now while the world ends. He has cleared the rubble but has no clue on how to rebuild, and rebuilding is the most important part.

 

Right, so they are talking about the Last Battle as a whole, not just his plan to seal the bore. Besides there is plenty to talk about in regards to the seals. It's not just "should they be broken or not", it's "why should they be broken" which is sort of something that should be discussed before it is done.

Yes, that would be the "we must talk about this" part. Followed by "Plan." Whether or not they break the seals isn't much of a plan.

[MasterAblar]

Of course it would be better to come up with a plan before breaking the seals. And if Egwene is opposing him because he does not have a plan, she should wait until meeting him at the FoM to see whether she should oppose him or not, based on whether he has come up with a plan or not.

No, she should oppose him from that meeting until he has a plan.

 

Plan on what to do about the seals if you prefer, and about the Last Battle in general. Egwene clearly says before this that Rand cannot break the seals which is what he is answering her about. No mention of his plan to reseal the DO is made.

But there isn't much planning to be done about the seals. Just because she doesn't say "let's plan what we are to do about the Dark One" doesn't mean that isn't what she meant. Clearly, beating Shai'tan, sealing the Bore is what they were talking about - breaking the seals was a part of that.

 

And what reason does he give in his letters to convince the various rulers to meet together.

Talk about the Last Battle. Really, he had to gather some of them anyway (he found King Alsalam, not Egwene, and the Borderlanders were sitting in FM for him so she couldn't gather them), so it's no stretch to say he could get the rest with precious little effort if he wanted to.

 

There could be ta'veren influence in there, but I feel that Egwene is perfectly capable of acting as she is without that influence.

Of course, that's how ta'veren works. If it can't happen without ta'veren, it still can't happen with. Ta'veren changes probability, not possbility.

 

Do you mean their first meeting or the meeting to come at the FoM? If it's the latter you are talking about, then I disagree as she has no way of knowing if he has figured out his plan or not, as he said he would. If it turns out that he has figured out his plan when they meet again, then she is going to feel pretty stupid in front of all the rulers that she convinced to help stop him, since it turns out there is no reason to oppose him after all.

She'll also feel pretty stupid if she cannot stop Rand doing something stupid. She needs to prepare. Rand said he didn't have a plan, but was breaking the seals anyway in a month, and hoped he would think of a plan. She said they needed to talk about this, and make plans, Rand refused. So Rand has refused to explain his reasons, refused to plan, admitted he doesn't have a plan yet, and yet plans to do something insanely dangerous. From that point onwards, Egwene would be derelict in her duty if she didn't act to stop him. Maybe she's wrong about the seals, maybe they do need to be broken, but that's not important. Rand doesn't have a plan, yet is going ahead anyway, gambling with all their lives. Now, if he does come up with a plan, then really there's no harm done. If he doesn't come up with a plan by the FoM, then Egwene shows up and Rand breaks the seals and she can't stop him. Then he sits around trying to figure out what to do now while the world ends. He has cleared the rubble but has no clue on how to rebuild, and rebuilding is the most important part.

 

Right, so they are talking about the Last Battle as a whole, not just his plan to seal the bore. Besides there is plenty to talk about in regards to the seals. It's not just "should they be broken or not", it's "why should they be broken" which is sort of something that should be discussed before it is done.

Yes, that would be the "we must talk about this" part. Followed by "Plan." Whether or not they break the seals isn't much of a plan.

 

Right, which is why I think she could have acted in the exact same way as she did, but just with a different mindset. Instead of thinking "he does not have a plan, he must be stopped", why not think "he might not have a plan, best to prepare if that's the case". The first mindset put's her in complete opposition whereas the second allows her to chose when the time comes once Rand tells her everything. As it is she is acting with very little information, opposing him when she does not know enough. Of course by the same argument supporting him would be wrong too. Rand has said he would come to the meeting before he broke the seals, so she needn't worry about him breaking them without talking to her first. Unless she thinks he would break his word. Of course this is all if she is opposing him because of his lack of a plan, which I don't believe. She has never thought about opposing whether he had a plan or not, she has always just thought "he is wrong, he must be stopped".

 

Yes, and he decided not to talk to her about his plans, to let her plan, and meet with him at the FoM. Seeing as she has opposed him on the breaking of the seals from the get go, it would be odd for to want to plan with Rand for something that would happen after he does something which she does not want to happen.

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[Mr Ares]

Right, which is why I think she could have acted in the exact same way as she did, but just with a different mindset. Instead of thinking "he does not have a plan, he must be stopped", why not think "he might not have a plan, best to prepare if that's the case"?

She shouldn't think that because it is inaccurate - Rand as good as told her he didn't have a plan. So is she suposed to think Rand is lying?

 

Yes, and he decided not to talk to her about his plans, to let her plan, and meet with him at the FoM. Seeing as she has opposed him on the breaking of the seals from the get go, it would be odd for to want to plan with Rand for something that would happen after he does something which she does not want to happen.

Well, what happens after the seals are broken? So far, we only have the general outline of "seal Bore, use both halves of the Power". No idea on how they are actually going to do it. But the sealing has to happen, regardless of which side of the argument you are on - both Rand and Egwene are in agreement. So discussion of how they are to do that is perfectly valid. There is ample room for planning, just not on the breaking of the seals, because one says yes and the other says no.

[MasterAblar]

Right, which is why I think she could have acted in the exact same way as she did, but just with a different mindset. Instead of thinking "he does not have a plan, he must be stopped", why not think "he might not have a plan, best to prepare if that's the case"?

She shouldn't think that because it is inaccurate - Rand as good as told her he didn't have a plan. So is she suposed to think Rand is lying?

 

Yes, and he decided not to talk to her about his plans, to let her plan, and meet with him at the FoM. Seeing as she has opposed him on the breaking of the seals from the get go, it would be odd for to want to plan with Rand for something that would happen after he does something which she does not want to happen.

Well, what happens after the seals are broken? So far, we only have the general outline of "seal Bore, use both halves of the Power". No idea on how they are actually going to do it. But the sealing has to happen, regardless of which side of the argument you are on - both Rand and Egwene are in agreement. So discussion of how they are to do that is perfectly valid. There is ample room for planning, just not on the breaking of the seals, because one says yes and the other says no.

 

I'm saying that he might or might not have a plan by the time they meet at the FoM. When he met Egwene the first time he did not have a complete plan yet, only details. Or at least details in the manner in which he must seal the bore. But at the FoM he might have found his answers.

 

I don't think there is that much room for planning on how to do the sealing. You either know how to do it or you don't. It seems to be Rand's job to figure out how to do that anyway and she doesn't seem to have tried to figure out a way to do it without breaking the seals.

[vanceme]

Someone mentioned the scene where egwene felt the broken sa angreal was familiar as tenuous linkage to LP. Isn't there a description in one of the earlier books about how to tell an angreal? I seem to recall it being similar to the way women can sense the ability in others, a kinship.

On another note, a comment earlier got me thinking on the king Fisher blind man parallel. In a pov morridin thinks that the last and most desperate way to win is to forsake trying to control the winning piece and simply to eliminate your opponents pieces entirely. I think rj may have been trying to prepare us for the, so sorry they die. Everyone dies. Moment...

[sleepinghour]

Someone mentioned the scene where egwene felt the broken sa angreal was familiar as tenuous linkage to LP. Isn't there a description in one of the earlier books about how to tell an angreal? I seem to recall it being similar to the way women can sense the ability in others, a kinship.

From the Thirteenth Depository:

 

Angreal and sa’angreal feel warm when touched by a channeller who uses the same half of the Source they are attuned to, or resonate if the same half of the Source is used nearby.

 

When a channeller holds the Power and touches an item, if it is ter’angreal and responds to the same half of the Source the channeller uses, it will feel faintly warm or resonate (The Path of Daggers, Unweaving).

Egwene is holding the Power at the time and identifies another angreal in the room, but the broken access key is the only one she thinks seems familiar and "calls" her.

 

A weathered stone figurine of a woman, seemingly unclothed but wrapped in hair that fell to her ankles, was outwardly no different from the others sharing its case, each not much bigger than her hand. But it gave an impression of soft warmth that she recognized. It was an angreal, she was sure; she wondered why the Tower had not managed to get it away from the Panarch. [...]

One thing actually seemed familiar, though she could not say why. Tucked into a corner of one of the cabinets, as if whoever put it there had been uncertain that it was worthy of display, lay the upper half of a broken figure carved from some shiny white stone, a woman holding a crystal sphere in one upraised hand, her face calm and dignified and full of wise authority. Whole, she would have been perhaps a foot tall. But why did she appear so familiar? She almost seemed to call to Egwene to pick her up.

Not until Egwene's fingers closed on the broken statuette did she realize she had climbed over the rope. Foolish, when I don't know what it is, she thought, but it was already too late.

[...]

The figure had to be a ter'angreal, but why had it hurt her like that when she only touched it? Perhaps because it was broken; perhaps, broken, it could not do what it was meant for. She did not even want to think of what it might have been made for; testing ter’angreal was dangerous. At least it must be broken beyond danger now. Here, at least. Why did it seem to call me?

--TSR ch 11

[Guest PiotrekS]

I think the relevant questions are these:

 

1. Who is in a better position to make a decision on how to fight a Last Battle? A person A, who is responsible for its outcome and has already done a lot to fight a Dark One, therefore gaining a lot of experience and at least some insight into the matter? Or a person B, who is a leader of one of many organizations (an important one, I admit) and whose experience consists mainly of political power struggles among the members of said organization (ok, and some Dreaming )?

 

Finally, I think power to make decisions should be matched with responsibility - who is ultimately responsible for the Last Battle should be in the position to make most important decisions.

 

2. If Egwene wanted to discuss potential flows in Rand's plan or the lack of said plan in rational manner, why didn't she tell him about her dream? I'm sure he would have listened to her. As it is, what reason does he have to even suspect that Egwene knows anything at all about the seals or the Last Battle? She hasn't done anything relating to these subjects so far and had no opportunity to gain any relevant knowledge or experience. Unless the Last Battle will take place in the World of Dreams, which is unlikely IMHO.

 

I think that concentrating on whether Rand had a fully fleshed out plan or not isn't appropriate, because neither had Egwene.It is ultimately a matter of who you choose, since the objective arguments are pretty evenly matched (e.g. breaking the seals might let the DO free - yes, but their destruction is unavoidable anyway and breaking them will let Rand choose when to fight)