Portal Stone question

[Vermillion]

In the Great Hunt Verin talks about not being able to use portal stones due to lack of strength in the power. But in ToM and maybe TGS weak channlers or low amount of power is used to operate the portal stones.

 

Is that a plot hole or chalk it up to Verin lying and pushing Rand?

[Mulk]

You can't sense a man's strength, you can only sense how much he is using, and if you are close, how much he is holding. Given that men are generally stronger than women in the One Power, it doesn't occasion any great disconnect to me. The bulk of the person's channeling, whoever they were, would have been spent on the other end at whatever Portal Stone he was jumping in from. When he jumped back, he was just moving himself.

[Terrel88]

As we have seen with Androl and gateways for Travelling, certain channelers have Talents to use certain weaves with no regard to the amount of Power used. Seems to me some baddie Asha'man has a Talent with Portal Stones so they use him to jump loads of trollocs/halfmen about. Verin was right and it isn't a plothole.

[Barid Bel Medar]

As we have seen with Androl and gateways for Travelling, certain channelers have Talents to use certain weaves with no regard to the amount of Power used. Seems to me some baddie Asha'man has a Talent with Portal Stones so they use him to jump loads of trollocs/halfmen about. Verin was right and it isn't a plothole.

 

thats a big leap. I wouldnt bet on it. It is hardly evident.

 

I dont think verin was lying as such, i think she thought that it required a huge amount of the OP.

 

Little is known of the Portal Stones, so even though it required a great amount of power for Rand to do it in tGH and tSR, the Shadow (AoL'ers) know much more about the Portal Stones than Verin. there may be a special technique involved that does not use much of the power. There also may be a ter'angreal in Moridin's stash that does the job.

 

It is uncertain of course, but my view is that Verin didnt lie, she just had no idea really, and from her experience, it took huge amounts of the OP.

[Terez]

As we have seen with Androl and gateways for Travelling, certain channelers have Talents to use certain weaves with no regard to the amount of Power used. Seems to me some baddie Asha'man has a Talent with Portal Stones so they use him to jump loads of trollocs/halfmen about. Verin was right and it isn't a plothole.

 

thats a big leap.

Not really. I had the same thought, and was happy to see someone beat me to it.

 

In any case, it took Rand every bit his fat man angreal could offer to take everyone to Chaendar in one jump, and Rand is as strong as they come. Moiraine even had to Heal him. But it takes every bit of the Power Aviendha can manage to weave a gateway because she can't remember how she did it the first time. There are enough possibilities that it's more of a leap to assume it's a plot hole than to assume there is a rational explanation for it of some kind.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

thats a big leap.

Not really. I had the same thought, and was happy to see someone beat me to it.

 

 

 

So because you had the same thought, it is good? Dont be so arrogant. You certainly know alot, more than myself certainly, but just because you think of something, doesnt make it a good theory, nor the correct one. Just look at how the Gawyn killing Rand plot turned out. (Not mean to be offensive, just saying)

 

My point was it is a big leap to assume from one sentance saying they were not channeling copious amounts of the OP to use the portal stones, to saying someone has a talent.

 

It is definitely a plausible scenario, and could very well be the case, but there is no evidence to support it.

 

There is just as much to say that Moridin has a ter'angreal that allows the Portal Stones to be used, or that the AoL'ers know a more efficiant way to use Portal Stones.

 

Verin and Rand know next to nothing about Portal Stones. They barely know how to use it let alone use it efficiantly.

 

To say

 

Seems to me some baddie Asha'man has a Talent with Portal Stones so they use him to jump loads of trollocs/halfmen about. Verin was right and it isn't a plothole.

 

is far from certain.

 

A decent theory, and plausible, but id hardly say it was certain.

 

There are enough possibilities that it's more of a leap to assume it's a plot hole than to assume there is a rational explanation for it of some kind.

 

I agree, there are more decent theroies.

 

 

As for Rand using all of his strength, you are correct, however, that does not necessarily mean that all portal stones require ultimate strength. By that reasoning, if it took Rand that much power to use it, virtually nobody else could use portal stones without the aid of an angreal, because, as you pointed out, Rand is the strongest. If he needed to use an angreal, and had the need to be healed, nobody else could use it.

 

Rand had to use brute force to propell them through the portal stones, however, it stands to reason that there existed a better way to use them, which required less power.

 

So, since Verin knows next to nothihng about Portal stones (self-admittedly) there are most likely better ways to use the Portal Stone. Rather than saying you have to use a supreme amount of OP that only Rand and 1 or 2 others have and that the only other way is a talent.

[Terez]

thats a big leap.

Not really. I had the same thought, and was happy to see someone beat me to it.

 

So because you had the same thought, it is good? Dont be so arrogant.

No, the thought is good because the reappearance of lost Talents is one of the themes of the series...and taking it even further, there are many Third Agers doing things that were considered impossible in the Age of Legends. Androl is just one example of many. Berowin's Talent for shielding. She's about as strong as Careane or maybe even Daigian, but she could hold one of the Forsaken without a link. The Sea Folk have developed control over the weather that should have required a ter'angreal, and the Aiel have developed the ability to unravel weaves. Nynaeve discovered how to Heal severing, the Black Ajah worked out how to pull someone into a circle against their will, etc.

 

Just look at how the Gawyn killing Rand plot turned out.

The Gawyn theory was awesome. Parts of it might even be still true (Rand is not dead yet, after all), but all of it was logically supported. It was always intended to be a loony theory...but it was a damn good one.

 

See, at JordanCon 2010, Brandon signed TGS for me. He tried to write 'May you find water + shade... + lots of crazy theories' but he wrote 'theory' instead. So, he started to scratch it out, and then he got this look on his face like he felt bad for screwing up my book, so he stopped and left it like that (at which point I asked him a random WoT question to change the subject). So, basically, he accidentally wished for me to have a crazy theory.

 

And so I came up with one. Gawyn Will Kill Rand was posted one week later. As the months went on I found even more evidence to support it, which is remarkable considering that it wasn't even true. And then, at DragonCon 2010 (which was before even the prologue of TOM was released, mind you), I tracked Brandon down at a non-Con signing at one of his favorite indie bookstores, the name of which I have already forgotten. Since it was a small signing, I got a chance to bug him for a few minutes. He signed my trivia certificate and drew Zombie Asmodean. I told him the story about what he had written last time on TGS, and showed it to him, and he says, 'So you want me to further deface your book?', and of course that was what I was after. This time I asked him to wish me 'brilliant, logically sound, correct theories'. And so he did. (Ballpoint is JCon, Sharpie is DCon):

 

 

So, I win. Sorry.

 

 

My point was it is a big leap to assume from one sentance saying they were not channeling copious amounts of the OP to use the portal stones, to saying someone has a talent.

I would have criticized his last sentence rather than his first.

 

It is definitely a plausible scenario, and could very well be the case, but there is no evidence to support it.

There is some, as discussed above.

 

I never said it was a plothole.

I never said that you did.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

Just look at how the Gawyn killing Rand plot turned out.

The Gawyn theory was awesome. Parts of it might even be still true (Rand is not dead yet, after all), but all of it was logically supported. It was always intended to be a loony theory...but it was a damn good one.

 

See, at JordanCon 2010, Brandon signed TGS for me. He tried to write 'May you find water + shade... + lots of crazy theories' but he wrote 'theory' instead. So, he started to scratch it out, and then he got this look on his face like he felt bad for screwing up my book, so he stopped and left it like that (at which point I asked him a random WoT question to change the subject). So, basically, he accidentally wished for me to have a crazy theory.

 

And so I came up with one. Gawyn Will Kill Rand was posted one week later. As the months went on I found even more evidence to support it, which is remarkable considering that it wasn't even true. And then, at DragonCon 2010 (which was before even the prologue of TOM was released, mind you), I tracked Brandon down at a non-Con signing at one of his favorite indie bookstores, the name of which I have already forgotten. Since it was a small signing, I got a chance to bug him for a few minutes. He signed my trivia certificate and drew Zombie Asmodean. I told him the story about what he had written last time on TGS, and showed it to him, and he says, 'So you want me to further deface your book?', and of course that was what I was after. This time I asked him to wish me 'brilliant, logically sound, correct theories'. And so he did. (Ballpoint is JCon, Sharpie is DCon):

 

 

So, I win. Sorry.

 

Edit: Sounded very bad after re-reading.

 

I have no desire to argue.

[Terez]

Right.....

 

a bit crazy. Ill just leave you to it. Taking things a bit tooooo seriously.

Oh, you're one of those, are you? As if you aren't on here every day arguing about WoT. I see it all the time, though...it's a very lazy way of defending, and obviously intended to be an insult no matter what disclaimers you throw in. But you lose. Just deal with it and move on.

 

I have had quite a few laughs with the boss at TL over people who try to play the Gawyn card in arguments that have nothing to do with it, which has been pretty common since TOM. It's not that it wasn't expected, but from a more logical perspective it makes all of you look a little bit silly.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Right.....

 

a bit crazy. Ill just leave you to it. Taking things a bit tooooo seriously.

Oh, you're one of those, are you? As if you aren't on here every day arguing about WoT. I see it all the time, though...it's a very lazy way of defending, and obviously intended to be an insult no matter what disclaimers you throw in. But you lose. Just deal with it and move on.

 

I have had quite a few laughs with the boss at TL over people who try to play the Gawyn card in arguments that have nothing to do with it, which has been pretty common since TOM. It's not that it wasn't expected, but from a more logical perspective it makes all of you look a little bit silly.

 

All I was saying that your theories are not God. Gawyn theory failed miserably. You got it wrong. Thats all. No matter how good it was. YOU WERE WRONG.

 

And I have no wish to argue with someone so devoted to the Wheel of Time. Yes, I love it, but I dont go hunting down Brandon, nor do I see hidden meanings behind words that he wrote as a part of a signing as some secret way of telling you your great.

 

Nothing I can say will sway your opinion, I am not stupid enough to try. And despite what you think, I dont mean to insult you. It certainly is crazy your obsession with the Wheel of Time, and perhaps you might want to do other things, but I admire your passion, and in no way was I trying to slight you for doing something you obviously love.

 

If you wish to take offence, be my guest. But that was not my intention. I was not trying to "win". I can definitely see logic in your theories. You know your stuff. Much better than I do. But it doesnt mean I agree.

 

Edit: I will however, apologize. As many posters know, I tend to be blunt, bordering abbrasive when I do not intend to be. So, I do realize that my words did indeed sound offensive, and I shall edit them.

 

So, I am sorry for sounding that way. but that was not my intention, Thatas why i put those disclaimers there.

[Terez]

Right.....

 

a bit crazy. Ill just leave you to it. Taking things a bit tooooo seriously.

Oh, you're one of those, are you? As if you aren't on here every day arguing about WoT. I see it all the time, though...it's a very lazy way of defending, and obviously intended to be an insult no matter what disclaimers you throw in. But you lose. Just deal with it and move on.

 

I have had quite a few laughs with the boss at TL over people who try to play the Gawyn card in arguments that have nothing to do with it, which has been pretty common since TOM. It's not that it wasn't expected, but from a more logical perspective it makes all of you look a little bit silly.

 

All I was saying that your theories are not God.

Which is kind of silly, seeing as how no one ever claimed such a thing. Your brain just went there.

 

Gawyn theory failed miserably. You got it wrong. Thats all. No matter how good it was. YOU WERE WRONG.

You didn't read anything I said, did you? Or maybe you just didn't comprehend it. Here's a quote for you:

 

The inn had walls dark from years of men smoking pipes inside it, and the windows-though of fine glass-had grown opaque with dirt and smoke. It was a tradition that they never be cleaned. The weathered sign out front had a wagon wheel painted on it, and the official name was The Dusty Wheel. Everyone called it The Rumor Wheel instead; it was the best place in Caemlyn to listen to rumors. Most of them were untrue, but that was half the fun.

Do you get it now?

 

The point is, just because someone has a loony theory that is written for fun doesn't mean that they're not right most of the time. For you to play the Gawyn card like you did was prime logical fallacy on several different levels.

 

And I have no wish to argue with someone so devoted to the Wheel of Time.

Then you shouldn't have responded to me in the first place.

 

Yes, I love it, but I dont go hunting down Brandon, nor do I see hidden meanings behind words that he wrote as a part of a signing as some secret way of telling you your great.

Aside from the logical fallacies yet again, what is your point?

 

Nothing I can say will sway your opinion, I am not stupid enough to try.

LMAO. This made my day. Thanks.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Right.....

 

a bit crazy. Ill just leave you to it. Taking things a bit tooooo seriously.

Oh, you're one of those, are you? As if you aren't on here every day arguing about WoT. I see it all the time, though...it's a very lazy way of defending, and obviously intended to be an insult no matter what disclaimers you throw in. But you lose. Just deal with it and move on.

 

I have had quite a few laughs with the boss at TL over people who try to play the Gawyn card in arguments that have nothing to do with it, which has been pretty common since TOM. It's not that it wasn't expected, but from a more logical perspective it makes all of you look a little bit silly.

 

All I was saying that your theories are not God.

Which is kind of silly, seeing as how no one ever claimed such a thing. Your brain just went there.

 

Gawyn theory failed miserably. You got it wrong. Thats all. No matter how good it was. YOU WERE WRONG.

You didn't read anything I said, did you? Or maybe you just didn't comprehend it. Here's a quote for you:

 

The inn had walls dark from years of men smoking pipes inside it, and the windows-though of fine glass-had grown opaque with dirt and smoke. It was a tradition that they never be cleaned. The weathered sign out front had a wagon wheel painted on it, and the official name was The Dusty Wheel. Everyone called it The Rumor Wheel instead; it was the best place in Caemlyn to listen to rumors. Most of them were untrue, but that was half the fun.

Do you get it now?

 

The point is, just because someone has a loony theory that is written for fun doesn't mean that they're not right most of the time. For you to play the Gawyn card like you did was prime logical fallacy on several different levels.

 

And I have no wish to argue with someone so devoted to the Wheel of Time.

Then you shouldn't have responded to me in the first place.

 

Yes, I love it, but I dont go hunting down Brandon, nor do I see hidden meanings behind words that he wrote as a part of a signing as some secret way of telling you your great.

Aside from the logical fallacies yet again, what is your point?

 

Nothing I can say will sway your opinion, I am not stupid enough to try.

LMAO. This made my day. Thanks.

 

Well your certainly offended.

 

Have it your own way.

 

Of course, I know you are being condecending, but I dont mind. I can admit I make mistakes. I am not trying to "win" a medal. its a debate. I disagree with you, but I admit to your logic.

 

Anyway, if your done looking down at me and laughing, lets get back on topic yes?

 

 

So the theories we have that are most likely =

 

A talent for using Portal Stones has been discovered.

The shadow knows how to use Portal Stones more effectively than Rand.

The Shadow has some kind of Ter'angreal that allows portal stone travel.

Its a plothole.

 

Are there any other theories out there?

 

What do we think of Verin? Did she lie? Or did she truly think that Rand had to use that much power?

 

Is she correct?

 

Myself, I say there isnt enough evidence to say one way or another. I think it will, however, play a big part in AMOL.

 

The Portal Stones are not done yet.

 

Perhaps this is what Demandred has been up to. He seems to be linked with the Asha'man and the Black Tower.

 

Possibly linked to the Blank in the Blight? Brandon did say there would be clues in ToM, but it would not be revealed outright?

 

Could there be a gathering of Dreadlords in some city of the Blight? The Male Aiel Channelers that go off to fight the DO?

[Terez]

Of course, I know you are being condecending, but I dont mind. I can admit I make mistakes. I am not trying to "win" a medal. its a debate. I disagree with you, but I admit to your logic.

 

Anyway, if your done looking down at me and laughing, lets get back on topic yes?

Another common underhanded debate tactic, to throw out condescension, and then try to pretend like the other person is the one who was being offensive. If you are not trying to win a medal, then why are you trying so hard? And keep in mind that you were the one who decided to go off-topic in the first place.

[Terrel88]

I really should think before I post if this is the outcome

[Barid Bel Medar]

I really should think before I post if this is the outcome

 

haha, not your fault. It was my own.

 

Your theory made sense, although i would hardly say it is certain.

 

Any more theories you got there?

 

I have a feeling that there could be more to it than we think.

 

I hesitate to say that there is one guy with a talent because the Shadow seems to be transporting Trollocs in mass numbers through Portal Stones.

 

It seems that it is a bit too big a job for just one guy. Remember also this could be tied to the mysterious channeling at Maradon.

 

No real idea where it fits in, just might want to have a look at all posibilites?

[Terez]

Another common underhanded debate tactic, to throw out condescension, and then try to pretend like the other person is the one who was being offensive. If you are not trying to win a medal, then why are you trying so hard? And keep in mind that you were the one who decided to go off-topic in the first place.

 

yes, yes, I am evil. You win, I dont care any more. YOu win. Happy?

I was never particularly unhappy. It takes more than bad logic and random personal attacks to upset me usually, especially since I enjoy poking holes in bad logic.

[Vermillion]

The thing is that Rand used a massive amount of power to move what several dozen people. Though he was not full strength and did something wrong.

 

Going to Rhuidean Rand had to use angreal and almost died because he was not strong enough even with the angreal. He moved several hundred people and animals maybe?

 

But in ToM you have a channeler or channelers portal stoning fist of trollocs in using small amounts of the power over and over.

[nojnomad]

Dear Barid Bel Medar & Terez,

 

while most of us find the whitty exchange funny it is also tirmesome. If you would like to wast so many electrons in a spat that rivals the depth of those I have had with my wife, please make your own thread...

 

In fact thats a great idea. We need one of the hall monitors in here to creat a detention thread where areguments like this can be sent.

[Terez]

It said 'fists' (as in multiple fists in one trip, according to Grady), and a fist is between 100 and 200 Trollocs, usually led by one Fade, which gives us a minimum of 200 and a maximum of probably around 4-500. Rand moved 'a few hundred' Aiel plus packhorses (and a handful of others, namely Egwene, Mat, Moiraine, and Lan). If the man is not very strong, then it should at the very least be maxing him out just as much as it did Rand to take the number he did in TSR, but he is able to do it repeatedly. It could certainly be a lack of skill on Rand's part, but I'm thinking that the Talent for using Portal Stones might not be all that rare of a Talent (as in, only the skill is lost, but Rand probably doesn't have the Talent for it). At least, I figure it's not rare like the ability to read residues or see ta'veren or even Foretelling, but more like the Talent for Healing. Anyone can Heal a bruise, but it's sort of a bell curve, with most being able to Heal moderately well to various degrees, and a smaller number on the other side of the bruise-only folks who can Heal very well. I would expect that the Shadow has been recruiting and/or turning people with the skills/talents they need. They have stronger people, so why not send someone who could bring more at a time if strength was all that was required? Maybe it simply takes practice, but I still don't see the point of training a grunt to do it.

 

Moiraine believed that there had not been an Aes Sedai strong enough to Travel since the Age of Legends. It was true that strength is generally relevant to making gateways, but it was not quite as relevant as Moiraine believed. She was strong enough to Travel. In fact, Aes Sedai several levels below her were strong enough, and there will probably eventually be a case among the women of someone like Androl for whom strength is not relevant at all. The BWB says that both strength and skill were necessary for the operation of Portal Stones, but where skill is necessary, talent is often quite relevant.

[KrisAnton]

Just a quick observation, this is a tough thread to track properly.

 

I remember reading somewhere, it may have been the time line on the WoT Wiki, but didn't the Seanchan use the Portal Stones to bring the Raken and To'Raken to defeat the Shadow creatures on their island? I would assume they would have used them regularly and efficiently, and since they are unaware of linking or forming circles, they must have had some knowledge about using them to move large objects through them.

 

I guess we can deduce that the Shadow isn't forming circles to use the Portal Stones, so it's probably an angreal giving a boost or a special Ter'angreal? If I recall correctly, the Portal Stones were made in the First Age, so it could be likely that the AoL'ers don't know much more than the current Randlanders know. It seems to me that the most likely answer is that someone (Demandred? Moridin, since he was able to spend some time in Finn Land when he picked up Lanfear?) knows exactly how to use a Portal Stone to its maximum efficiency.

 

A Talent regarding the Portal Stones is unlikely because the Stones are man-made and extremely rare; why would the Pattern spin out a Talent that can manipulate a man-made object that didn't exist at the time of Creation? The pattern would then be directly aiding the Shadow, both in the conquest of the Seanchan people and the movement of Shadowspawn through Randland.

[Terrel88]

A Talent regarding the Portal Stones is unlikely because the Stones are man-made and extremely rare; why would the Pattern spin out a Talent that can manipulate a man-made object that didn't exist at the time of Creation? The pattern would then be directly aiding the Shadow, both in the conquest of the Seanchan people and the movement of Shadowspawn through Randland.

Just because the Stones are rare, doesn't mean you're less likely to have a Talent for it imo. The Pattern is supposed to be neutral, and about balance. Why does the fact that it aids the Shadow relevant to the possibility of a Talent? By the way guys, this was just a theory, if it wasn't, if it was proved without a shadow of a doubt, AMoL would be kinda boring Of course, this is all just in my opinion, because I like the WoT series

[Terez]

There's nothing to say that the Age of Legends folk didn't know much about Portal Stones at all. The BWB suggests they had a workable expertise. Also, Talents are soul traits, including channeling, which sometimes is a useful Talent, sometimes not. Like being a Wolfbrother. Perrin is always a Wolfbrother, but in some Ages there aren't any Wolfbrothers so the soul trait lies dormant.

 

Dear Barid Bel Medar & Terez

You can leave me out of it. I don't particularly mind thread hijacks, but I didn't hijack this one; BBM did. Let that be a lesson for those who would rather make personal attacks than address the subject at hand.

[Sharaman]

Several possibilities could explain why it's not a plot-hole.

1) Technique versus brute force - the channelers who use portals know how to do it. Rand didn't and he had to use huge quantities of power to compensate.

2) An "open connection". It may be easier in terms of efficient power use to jump back and forth if the connection between the two portals is left open - this again, could be because Rand never tried jumping back-and-forth. Maybe the second jump (return journey) is easier - sort of like a rubber band snapping back to its normal length from tension.

3) Perrin's Ashaman can only sense the power the channeler uses to transport himself (one person) back to the distant portal stone. This may be much less than required to transport hands of trollocs from the other portal stone but Grady can't sense that since it's a distant location.

Incidentally Lanfear-Selene who does know plenty about portal stones was apparently impressed by Rand's ability in TGH. So it's not just Verin voicing an opinion based on ignorance.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Several possibilities could explain why it's not a plot-hole.

1) Technique versus brute force - the channelers who use portals know how to do it. Rand didn't and he had to use huge quantities of power to compensate.

2) An "open connection". It may be easier in terms of efficient power use to jump back and forth if the connection between the two portals is left open - this again, could be because Rand never tried jumping back-and-forth. Maybe the second jump (return journey) is easier - sort of like a rubber band snapping back to its normal length from tension.

3) Perrin's Ashaman can only sense the power the channeler uses to transport himself (one person) back to the distant portal stone. This may be much less than required to transport hands of trollocs from the other portal stone but Grady can't sense that since it's a distant location.

Incidentally Lanfear-Selene who does know plenty about portal stones was apparently impressed by Rand's ability in TGH. So it's not just Verin voicing an opinion based on ignorance.

 

I like the second possibility. Kind of like shielding. It takes strength to shield someone, but less to hold it.

 

So they could just be holding the portal stone open as such.

[haloun]

i think it has something to do with rand not remembering correctly, aviendha has an issue with traveling because she did it differently the first time, rand first used the portal stones while asleep if i remember correctly (i may be wrong) it could be that he used the correct form of the weave as some soul memory, and now he cant remember what he did since he is asleep. of course if this is the case, then he would have no trouble using a portal stone now. just a thought.