MatMemories and the Knowers of Secrets

[aynatal2000]

Mat,Noal and Thom succeed in freeing Moiraine...but Noal ends up sacrificing himself - or so we are led to believe.The Eeel Finn call themselves the Knowers of Secrets and the Warriors of Final Regret.They say to Mat that he brings out their most skilled ... I took that to be the holders of memory- those memories they gave Mat.

Now Noal dies in there... and he one of the greatest adventurers of all and a man of many secrets... Shara is one and some intimate details about the Chosen who held him would be another.Graendel had him for awhile and of course Ishamael who first led him astray.

If Mat draws out the most skilled of their collection, then Noal's memories will come to him when needed - memories of Shayol Gul, and Ishamael's Blight;Graendel's Shara.

One other thing. When Mat realizes that he must pay half the light of the world - his eye, he figures that if he doesn't do it then he Thom and Moraine will have to pay a greater price; but he doesn't include Noal in this.He doesn't think of Noal paying that greater price.

 

I think we are not through with Noal or the Finn just yet.

[Callern]

I don't suppose the memories works like that. I was under the impression that Mat had his "holes" filled, so they filled them. Not with an unlimited source of memories, but many memories from many men, and they never lived at the same time.

 

If Noal is dead, and he probably is, Mat would not get his memories, or any others for that sake, cause the holes are allready filled...

 

And that last part of yours? Noal not paying a greater price? Could you quote that?

[randsc]

You know, one thing I always wondered about was why, out of all the gin-joints in all the out of all of the memories they had to choose from, the Finns gave Mat such useful ones. They could have given him the memories of a great general planning a dinner party instead of a battle, right?

 

I think maybe the Finns aren't baddies, and are what passes for moral amibguity in tWoT.

[Fel]

A little off topic on this, but Noal's death reminded me...In the book, Birgitte says that the Aelfinn/Eelfinn don't like to spill blood in their realm (that it does strange things or something), so they will try to trap you with pits, snares, and ropes.

 

but, when Mat is trying to escape, they simply rip out some bronze blades and go at them. At the end, Matt sees one of them with blood all over the blade (presumably Noal's), but no "strange things" or anything else.

 

Any idea why? or just an oversight in the book?

[Muad Cheade]

They gave Mat the memories of the men who had visited the Tower of Ghenjei. Naturally, those would be daring, military-minded and resourceful men.

[akira.taylor]

They gave Mat the memories of the men who had visited the Tower of Ghenjei. Naturally, those would be daring, military-minded and resourceful men.

 

I think the point was that he could have gotten memories of daring, military-minded and resourceful men doing mundane tasks - planning parties, weddings, dancing, diplomacy (well, that could be useful), etc. So, why did they give him the useful, combat-related memories of the daring, military-minded and resourceful men?

[Ashandarei]

They gave Mat the memories of the men who had visited the Tower of Ghenjei. Naturally, those would be daring, military-minded and resourceful men.

 

I think the point was that he could have gotten memories of daring, military-minded and resourceful men doing mundane tasks - planning parties, weddings, dancing, diplomacy (well, that could be useful), etc. So, why did they give him the useful, combat-related memories of the daring, military-minded and resourceful men?

 

He does have non-military memories too like the one about dancing as an Eharonian Lord with a Sea Folk delegate at some ball (IIRC)

[randsc]

They gave Mat the memories of the men who had visited the Tower of Ghenjei. Naturally, those would be daring, military-minded and resourceful men.

 

I think the point was that he could have gotten memories of daring, military-minded and resourceful men doing mundane tasks - planning parties, weddings, dancing, diplomacy (well, that could be useful), etc. So, why did they give him the useful, combat-related memories of the daring, military-minded and resourceful men?

 

Exactly. I didn't say he could have been given the memories of a camp cook, or some such.

 

But the vast majority of Mat's memories seem to be of military matters. It seems a bit much for coincidence.

 

For that matter, knowing what we know of tToG, shouldn't a disproportionate number of the memories have been those of various Firsts of Mayene?

[Muad Cheade]

My point was what do you think the majority of the memories would be related to if the men were primarily commanders, lords, soldiers, etc?

 

One of the Firsts of Mayene traded it to Tear 300 years ago. We have not heard of every single memory Mat has but yes, he would have the memories of some Firsts of Mayene.

[Callern]

You know, one thing I always wondered about was why, out of all the gin-joints in all the out of all of the memories they had to choose from, the Finns gave Mat such useful ones. They could have given him the memories of a great general planning a dinner party instead of a battle, right?

 

I think maybe the Finns aren't baddies, and are what passes for moral amibguity in tWoT.

 

This might be Mat's ta'veren effect again. He's a lucky guy, his "ta'veren-skills" are "lucky" in lack of better words. I do not think that Mat being in another realm (a parallel world) would matter, as the ta'veren shapes the great pattern, not a specific world in itself.

 

And if Mat is going to fight in the Last Battle, what could be more useful to him, then to get a head filled with years and years of military training?

Just a theory tho...

 

 

A little off topic on this, but Noal's death reminded me...In the book, Birgitte says that the Aelfinn/Eelfinn don't like to spill blood in their realm (that it does strange things or something), so they will try to trap you with pits, snares, and ropes.

 

but, when Mat is trying to escape, they simply rip out some bronze blades and go at them. At the end, Matt sees one of them with blood all over the blade (presumably Noal's), but no "strange things" or anything else.

 

Any idea why? or just an oversight in the book?

 

Isn't that just when you go through one of the, umm, portals or smth? When you enter through the Tower, there is no agreement protecting the visitor, so the finns are allowed to kill?

[nwash_10]

Mat remembers more than just battles. He says how he remembers only a couple of days of someones life or several years. It varies. I don't have the book in front of me but I'm re-reading LoC and just read the part where mat uses his memories for dancing with a serving girl and also recognizes the various Sea Folk by rank. This is the same chapter that Mat meets Oliver.

 

So mat remembers battles and strategies, yes...but he also remembers customs, dancing, music, and women among many other things.

 

He also remembers dying several times. So, it's not like all of his flaming memories are good ones:)

[Dream]

One other thing. When Mat realizes that he must pay half the light of the world - his eye, he figures that if he doesn't do it then he Thom and Moraine will have to pay a greater price; but he doesn't include Noal in this.He doesn't think of Noal paying that greater price.

I think Mat was aware of the price he had to pay before going into the Tower of Genjei, which is why he was so angry at them and ranting about how they knew he would be back. And he didn't do it for Thom and Moiraine (or maybe I should say "just for Thom and Moiraine"). He did it because he had to "give up half the light of the world to save the world."

[Guest moara]

Right up until ToM, I was under the impression that Mat's memories were those of his past lives. Like Rand, who's always reborn as a strong chaneller, or Brigitte and Ghavain (sp?) who are always reborn together, Mat's always reborn as a general, or tactical man of some sort.

When Mat asked for his memories to be filled, they fixed them, but also gave him bits of memory from his past lives as well.

 

I still think that;s the theory I'm going to stick to, because it only has Mat's speculation in ToM to disprove it, and he's a fallible character.

[gbuttsdc]

I agree that they are his past lives. Didn't they call him the son of battles or something like that. Also, he started speaking the old tongue and jumping into battle with trollocs before his visit to finnland. It seems like a lot of his memories are from one or more generals of manetherin as well, and there is nothing to say any of the men whose memories he has ever went to finnland or he'd probably have some memory of it.

[Muad Cheade]

Right up until ToM, I was under the impression that Mat's memories were those of his past lives. Like Rand, who's always reborn as a strong chaneller, or Brigitte and Ghavain (sp?) who are always reborn together, Mat's always reborn as a general, or tactical man of some sort.

When Mat asked for his memories to be filled, they fixed them, but also gave him bits of memory from his past lives as well.

 

I still think that;s the theory I'm going to stick to, because it only has Mat's speculation in ToM to disprove it, and he's a fallible character.

 

 

I agree that they are his past lives. Didn't they call him the son of battles or something like that. Also, he started speaking the old tongue and jumping into battle with trollocs before his visit to finnland. It seems like a lot of his memories are from one or more generals of manetherin as well, and there is nothing to say any of the men whose memories he has ever went to finnland or he'd probably have some memory of it.

They are not his past lives because RJ said so. There is also a "flashback" of him being an advisor to a king of Manetheren and dying and then seeing the enemy die many years later (TSR Imre Stand). That means tat those two people/memories lived at the same time which means they couldn't have been reincarnations of Mat. It is possible they could have lived at different times; although, it would require Mat's soul to have been spun out very quickly after his first death, if that makes sense. I don't think that is a likely scenario.

[maddface]

Right up until ToM, I was under the impression that Mat's memories were those of his past lives. Like Rand, who's always reborn as a strong chaneller, or Brigitte and Ghavain (sp?) who are always reborn together, Mat's always reborn as a general, or tactical man of some sort.

When Mat asked for his memories to be filled, they fixed them, but also gave him bits of memory from his past lives as well.

 

I still think that;s the theory I'm going to stick to, because it only has Mat's speculation in ToM to disprove it, and he's a fallible character.

 

This cannot be the case, he states in one of the books that he remembers being on opposite sides of the same battle. I don't remember exactly which book but I recall that much. He states he remembers killing someone and being the guy killed, IIRC.

 

Also, when he first entered Finnland, they called him "Son of Battles" and many theories say that they read the thread of your life in the pattern. Therefore, even at this early time they knew what memories would be given to him ahead of time, meaning they knew he would get memories of battles. If they were gonna give him memories of mundane and non-useful stuff they would of called him "Son of the Mundane".

 

Edit: Maude beat me to it.