Death of Rand, and Logain's role

[Entreri]

Theory:

 

Perrin comes to 'save' the dying Rand, and Nynaeve cures death, using Logain's body in some way, possibly a man with two souls type of thing and the DR faces the DO as the "BROKEN Champion".

 

This assumes that the Dark Prophecy at the end of ToM is accurate and that Rand does not fake his death.

 

Evidence:

 

The Dark prophecy: "Yea, and the BROKEN Wolf, the one whom DEATH HAS KNOWN shall fall and be consumed by the MIDNIGHT TOWERS. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself"...

 

This implies that this event occurs prior to the final confrontation/defeat of the DO. Otherwise there would be no reason men would feel this way.

 

Perrin has not known death and neither has Lan. Perrin's death = loss for the Light, as Min's visions implies that all 3 ta'avern are needed to triumph over the DO. Perrin and certainly Lan are too insignificant to "shake their very will itself". Mat did not technically die, never described as a wolf.

 

The Forsaken finally manage to "kill" the DR. Lanfear's trap, along with help from others of the Forsaken/Moghdien, possibly both Demandred and the Slayer could be involved. Some type of battle in TAR? Who knows.

 

Shadar Haran said to Grandael "This opportunity has been given to another".

 

Perrin needs to rescue Rand twice to avoid disaster, and he has only done it once. Perrin had no impact on Rand's decision in Dragonmount, TAR does not work that way.

 

Min's vision: "When you two were together, I saw those fireflies and the darkness stronger than ever.... But with two of you in the same room, the fireflies were holding their own instead of being eaten faster than they can swarm, the way they do when you're alone. Twice he's going to have to be there, or you [Rand]...." "If he's not, something bad will happen to you." "Very bad." Rand: "Then I'll just have to keep him around." Min: "I don't know that that will be enough, it will happen if he is not there, but nothing I saw said it won't because he is. It will be very bad, Rand."

 

"It will be VERY BAD".

 

Perrin's rescue comes in somewhat late and the dying Rand is saved by Nynaeve. Nynaeve keeps going on about only death cannot be healed throughout the series. "Everybody" now would think the DR is dead (funeral bier of Egwene's vision). Nynaeve could do a 'soul' transfer/Rand's soul going to Logain...a man with two souls/like Slayer or Logain sacrifices himself and Rand now uses his body. Nynaeve has accomplished the impossible twice: severing and curing madness, the hat trick (trifecta) is coming up imo.

 

Egwene vision: "Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet."

 

Min's vision about Logain: "A halo of gold and blue, signifying glory to come." Leader of the Black Tower, maybe not. Much, much more significant things have occurred throughout the series. There was no vision of Egwene's glory and power of taking over the WT, rooting out the Black Ajah and killing Messana. IMO, Logain would need to do something much greater to be described in such a way by Min.

 

"ALIVIA: "Rand, I like Alivia, But she is going to kill you." [Rand replies]: "You said she was going to help me die… Those were your words."

 

"And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion, and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful". From BROKEN Wolf to BROKEN Champion.

[chinnma]

Where do you get the idea that a person can have two souls?

[herid]

You don't really have a firm theory (and I certainly don't have one either) so it's hard to comment. I agree with some things and disagree with others.

Things I agree with:

 

Perrin might be very important somehow (no idea how) as Min's vision you mentioned indicates.

I also agree that Rand will die before the LB is over and as you say " It will be VERY BAD". The dark prophecy you mention is a good indication of that. There are some other hints. For example when Rand tells Bashere

 

I will organize you, but I must leave you. The war will be yours.

I think this is exactly what will happen.

 

 

 

But I disagree about the role of Nynaeve. I firmly believe that healing death is not something that she can do. Death is not a decease. If Rand is resurrected (and I'm not entirely sure he will be) it will be an absolutely unique event, not related to Nyn learning a new weave to heal death. Only Creator (and the DO) can do that. That's made abundantly clear to Rand when he tried it himself using Callandor at the end of DR.

I believe Logain will be a leader (perhaps the leader) after Rand dies, which is where his glory will come from. I don't see him giving up his body for Rand's rebirth. Nothing we've seen including the vision of a laughing Logain stepping over Rand's body supports this notion. If Rand comes back in another body at all I think it will be Moridin's body. That would at least make sense given that their souls are now linked.

[Elan Tedronai]

Rand will not die permanently. He may fake his death or resurrect. But he will live and simply vanish from the scene.

 

Logain will be the new tamyrlin

[moratcorlm]

But I disagree about the role of Nynaeve. I firmly believe that healing death is not something that she can do. Death is not a decease. If Rand is resurrected (and I'm not entirely sure he will be) it will be an absolutely unique event, not related to Nyn learning a new weave to heal death. Only Creator (and the DO) can do that.

Moghedien did it for Birgitte.

[herid]

But I disagree about the role of Nynaeve. I firmly believe that healing death is not something that she can do. Death is not a decease. If Rand is resurrected (and I'm not entirely sure he will be) it will be an absolutely unique event, not related to Nyn learning a new weave to heal death. Only Creator (and the DO) can do that.

Moghedien did it for Birgitte.

hmm, that's a good point. I admit I did not think about that. It's not healing but it's certainly a way to bring someone who is bound to the wheel back to life. Very interesting. Perhaps something like this will be involved. It would be somewhat against the general theme of the Dragon being extremely closely tied to and controlled by the pattern (Birgitte's resurrection definitely goes against the pattern) but maybe that's actually a good thing.

 

Where do you get the idea that a person can have two souls?

Isam/Luc has two souls (Moridin mentions this explicitly) but I doubt that particular trick will be involved in Rand's case.

[Tollieman]

We could consider that noone of the HOTH are truly dead? They ARE different to 'normal' souls, since those souls don't go to TAR when their bodies die.

 

Maybe like 'being in the flesh', without the flesh having been in the real world

[Entreri]

Some good points have been raised: Rand taking over Moridin's body after being mortally wounded. This could be possible due to their link.

 

Moratcorim has raised a very good point about TAR.

 

As for death, yes Rand could not bring someone back with Callandor, however he believed he could with the Choden Kal. Anyway, would it require that kind of Power? There is supposed to be a sa'angreal stronger than Callandor...how about any female sa'angreal of great power?

 

"Logain will be the new tamyrlin". If Avienhda's visions are truly prophetic or at least an alternative time line, I think this is unlikely. The Black and White Tower were separate for 100's of years.

[herid]

I forgot to mention that one reason I think Rand will get an entirely new body is the line

He shall hold a blade of light in his hands and the three shall be one.

As Rand has only one hand at the moment he needs either a new body or some sort of artificial hand to replace his missing one. I have no idea what would happen to his hand if he dies and then is pulled back from TAR using Moghedien's trick. Will he get back his missing hand in TAR?

[Terez]

Yup, you can make a new body in TAR. You can make yourself look like whatever you want. There are some interesting parallels to the Perun legends:

 

Rain is a happy omen and, falling before a new endeavour is commenced, guarantees its success. The sick are given rain water, or water collected from the seven springs to drink. Rain water, or the water of life, as it is called in Russian, heals wounds, makes mutilated parts of the body grow, rejuvenates the old, and resurrects the dead.

 

The Slavonic tales abound in accounts of how a dead hero is restored to life by means of this precious liquid, which is sometimes brought by the Whirlwind, the Thunder, and the Hail, sometimes by their types the Raven, the Hawk, the Eagle, and the Dove. But they differ from most of the similar stories in this respect. They have two species of what is called the "strong" or the "heroic" water. The one is called "the dead water" (mertvaya voda); the other the "living [or vivifying] water" (zhivaya voda). Contrary to its name, however, the dead water does not bring death; rather, it makes mutilated bodies whole, and heals wounds. But unlike live water, it does not possess the power of resurrection. Folktales are replete with motifs of dead and live water. Like the spring rains which first melt the earth, purify her, make her whole, while the following rains resurrect her, the dead hero too is first sprinkled with dead water, and then with live water, before he comes to life again. When that has been done, the corpse first shudders and then sits up, usually remarking "How long I have been asleep?" or "Oh, did I sleep too long?"

[herid]

Yup, you can make a new body in TAR. You can make yourself look like whatever you want.

Yes, but it's not really clear what would happen to those body parts once you leave TAR. when Egwene changes herself on the way to Salidar those changes disappear when she leaves TAR. of course this is different from how Birgitte leaves TAR so perhaps that analogy would not apply if Rand is brought back to life that way.

There are some interesting parallels to the Perun legends:

 

Rain is a happy omen and, falling before a new endeavour is commenced, guarantees its success. The sick are given rain water, or water collected from the seven springs to drink. Rain water, or the water of life, as it is called in Russian, heals wounds, makes mutilated parts of the body grow, rejuvenates the old, and resurrects the dead.

 

The Slavonic tales abound in accounts of how a dead hero is restored to life by means of this precious liquid, which is sometimes brought by the Whirlwind, the Thunder, and the Hail, sometimes by their types the Raven, the Hawk, the Eagle, and the Dove. But they differ from most of the similar stories in this respect. They have two species of what is called the "strong" or the "heroic" water. The one is called "the dead water" (mertvaya voda); the other the "living [or vivifying] water" (zhivaya voda). Contrary to its name, however, the dead water does not bring death; rather, it makes mutilated bodies whole, and heals wounds. But unlike live water, it does not possess the power of resurrection. Folktales are replete with motifs of dead and live water. Like the spring rains which first melt the earth, purify her, make her whole, while the following rains resurrect her, the dead hero too is first sprinkled with dead water, and then with live water, before he comes to life again. When that has been done, the corpse first shudders and then sits up, usually remarking "How long I have been asleep?" or "Oh, did I sleep too long?"

that's an interesting analogy. BTW, I'm Russian and I actually grew up with those stories. They are indeed quite popular and have influenced even modern russian literature.

In fact, when I read the line "Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth", I thought about a moment from "Master and Margarita" (the greatest russian novel ever IMO) which is heavily based on the bible and ancient myths. At the culmination of the book the two main heroes are poisoned by drinking ancient wine. Some time after their death the same exact wine is poured into their mouths and that brings them back to life (but on another plane of existence). This was fairly clearly inspired to some degree by "zhivaya voda" and "mertvaya voda". But I frankly never considered that such things would find their way into Jordan's books.

[Terez]

Yup, you can make a new body in TAR. You can make yourself look like whatever you want.

Yes, but it's not really clear what would happen to those body parts once you leave TAR.

Yes it is. Birgitte was perfectly whole when she came out.

 

when Egwene

She was alive. You can't compare them.

[Terez]

By the way, I have a bad habit of posting in the morning when my brain isn't quite working yet and coming off as rude and short with people. It's more a matter of 'my brain can only handle short sentences right now'.

 

You're the first person I've talked to who is familiar with the Slavic legends. The best help I got on the subject previously was from an Estonian and a Finn. Brandon told us specifically that we should look into Perun, so I imagine he found something about it in the notes (it's mostly about Gawyn, but whatever...maybe I should put this in the Perrin category):

 

Brandon on Facebook - 21 June 2010 8:34 pm

A fanmail tonight includes a request for Gawyn to die, and Egwene to hook up with Galad. At least it's not another begging for Rand + Egwene.

10:24 pm

Wow. I did not mean to start an epic Gawyn/Galad/Egwene/Rand thread on my Facebook, but I appear to have done so.

11:05 pm

Some interesting reading if you're thinking/talking about Gawyn as a character can be found here:

Sir Gawain and the Green Knight - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

from the comments:

One other way to think of it is thus: The Wheel will keep on turning, and the Age that we live in (or like unto it) will someday arrive. Legends from what is happening in these books will have survived, and become the Arthur legends during our day. Or, in other cases, stories of other characters have survived in other mythologies. (Look up the Slavic god Perun sometime.)

Perrin is not a god, nor is Gawyn the knight of that story I linked. But perhaps someone who lived long ago, in another Age, gave birth to rumors about a young nobleman who made a mistake, and bore the weight of that sin for the rest of his days. And that gave birth to stories, which in turn inspired a poet to write a tale.

[herid]

By the way, I have a bad habit of posting in the morning when my brain isn't quite working yet and coming off as rude and short with people. It's more a matter of 'my brain can only handle short sentences right now'.

No problem. I was not offended.

You're the first person I've talked to who is familiar with the Slavic legends.

I'm hardly an expert I'm afraid. I've read and heard some as fairy tales as a kid but no more than that.

I looked up the information on Perun (I've only vaguely heard of him before). Interestingly, the Russian and the English wikipedia sites give somewhat different info.

The Russian site says that Perun had the following weapons:

thunder-arrows, lightning arrows (apparently the two are not the same), some kind of throwing stones, war axes and palitsas. I'm not sure how the last one translates. In Russian it's палица.

It's related to a hammer but is not the same.

This page (it's in russian I'm afraid) describes them to some degree http://www.viparsenal.ru/article_12.html and provides some pictures.

 

The russian wiki page also says that Perun's animal form was a huge wild bull.

[Ashandarei]

I looked up the information on Perun (I've only vaguely heard of him before). Interestingly, the Russian and the English wikipedia sites give somewhat different info.

The Russian site says that Perun had the following weapons:

thunder-arrows, lightning arrows (apparently the two are not the same), some kind of throwing stones, war axes and palitsas. I'm not sure how the last one translates. In Russian it's палица.

It's related to a hammer but is not the same.

This page (it's in russian I'm afraid) describes them to some degree http://www.viparsenal.ru/article_12.html and provides some pictures.

 

The russian wiki page also says that Perun's animal form was a huge wild bull.

 

That's an incredibly cool(FLBW) reference to Perrin/Perun, palitsa/Mah'alleneir, and "huge wild bull"/Young Bull! Thanks Herid & Terez

[FarShainMael]

I forgot to mention that one reason I think Rand will get an entirely new body is the line

He shall hold a blade of light in his hands and the three shall be one.

As Rand has only one hand at the moment he needs either a new body or some sort of artificial hand to replace his missing one. I have no idea what would happen to his hand if he dies and then is pulled back from TAR using Moghedien's trick. Will he get back his missing hand in TAR?

 

Don't forget Min's viewing of an onyx hand holding a sword. Might be some sort of ter'angreal prosthesis, or saidin-construct.