Bonding Ashaman

[murali284]

What i've always wondered is:

In elaida's faction, only the red ajah bond ashaman. but in egwene's faction anybody can bond ashaman. When reunification occurs, what will be the status of those aes sedai who had bonded ashaman and what will be the policy of bonding ashaman after reunification

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually, there is no law against bonding Asha'man for anyone in the Tower. It is the policy of the Red Ajah that THEY can only bond men who can channel. So, none of that will affect the Aes Sedai of other Ajahs who have bonded Asha'man.

[dicetosser1]

What i wonder is this. When Pevara and that go and speak to Taim they r surronded by his cronies who seem to be likely suspects for DF's. Can they only choose from this group of men? If so there r gonna b a lot of DF warders

 

dicetosser1

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yep ... that presents an interesting problem, if that is how it turns out.

[Luckers]

That has been raised. There are a few conciderations. For one, the Asha'men do not know that men wielding saidin are immune to the compulsive effects of the bond, and are therefore likely to expect that the Aes sedai would have full power over them. How many darkfriends will allow a Lightbound Aes sedai that sort of control over them is questionable. Therefore any of Taims men that are bonded will likely have been commanded to allow it to happen.

 

By indications in that scene, as well as Logain's listing of Taim's men earlier, we can suggest that there are only 100 men that are in Taim's little darkfriend coalition. The question can be raised of how much Taim is willing to weaken himself by sending away men loyal to him... my guess would be that he would be willing to part with no more then 20.

 

It seems unlikely that he will allow this to bleed outside his own men. If word got to one of the other Asha'men ti would reach Logain, who would take it to Rand. Taim would know this. Therefore i see only around 20 men being avalliable for the Reds to bond.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Still, 20 male Dreadlords in Tar Valon could do serious damage at the right time and place.

[Guest cwestervelt]

RobertAlexWillis: Actually, there is no law against bonding Asha'man for anyone in the Tower. It is the policy of the Red Ajah that THEY can only bond men who can channel. So, none of that will affect the Aes Sedai of other Ajahs who have bonded Asha'man.

 

True. There is a significant issue created by the Reds bonding any Asha'man however. Taim was not authorized to make his agreement and it is in direct conflict with that made by Rand and the Rebel Aes Sedai. Rand's agreement was intended to balance the number of bonded Aes Sedai with an equal number of bonded Asha'man. Rand made this agreement with the Rebel Aes Sedai and the Red, having no representation among, or recognition of, the Rebels, is not a participant in the agreement. The Red's agreement undermines Rand's and could instigate a bonding free-forall.

 

Luckers: That has been raised. There are a few conciderations. For one, the Asha'men do not know that men wielding saidin are immune to the compulsive effects of the bond, and are therefore likely to expect that the Aes sedai would have full power over them. How many darkfriends will allow a Lightbound Aes sedai that sort of control over them is questionable. Therefore any of Taims men that are bonded will likely have been commanded to allow it to happen.

 

Not necessarily true. The Aes Sedai are unaware of any issues controlling a male channeller. The whole purpose of them wanting to bond Asha'man is based on their ability to control them being used to prevent the Asha'man from Channelling. There is a good possibility that the Asha'man do know they can't be controlled easily. Rand proved that already during Lord of Chaos. Since at least Winter's Heart, there have been other Asha'man that were bonded though. Plenty of time for word to spread among them that compelling them is problematic at best.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Rand made this agreement with the Rebel Aes Sedai and the Red, having no representation among, or recognition of, the Rebels, is not a participant in the agreement. The Red's agreement undermines Rand's and could instigate a bonding free-forall.

 

Which is exactly the reason that Taim agreed to it, then laughed and made the "Let the Lord of Choas rule." joke.

[CrazyMike]

Three Things here:

 

(1) I was under the impression that Taim only had 40 followers ,,, from when Logain was talking to Rand about Taim and his followersin book 11

 

(2) I have not seen any definite evidence that Taim is a Dark Friend or a Forsaken,,, he does show definite signs of insanity induced by the Taint on the Source,,, and the Forsaken had a shield or filter that they used to use the Source with out the Taint,,, as shown in the book 4 TSR (Shadow Rising) when Lanfer helped Rand with the Domination of that other Farsaken Male that Taught Rand a Lot of Weaves,,, isn't it possible that Taim is just an Arrogant power hungry opportunist who has an additional agenda besides the winning of the Last Battle, like maybe world domination after Rand is killed in Tarman Gadon???

 

(3) and Finaly ,,, if Taim is a dark Friend or Forsaken why wouldn't he and his Men simply use the KISS to enslave the RED's and then Pretend to be Bonded to them so they could gain access to the White Tower,,, the Aes Sedai that are bonded by the Kiss are so enslved that they could be commanded to act as though they were in a Normal Aes Sedai/Warder Bond and not betray the Dark Friends that controled them,,, no one would be able to tell the difference ,,, and then they could take one of the Dread Lords to Elaida in her Tower Office and KISS her there,,, this seems more reasonable an approach than the Chaos of letting the Reds actualy Bond the men

[Guest cwestervelt]

isn't it possible that Taim is just an Arrogant power hungry opportunist who has an additional agenda besides the winning of the Last Battle, like maybe world domination after Rand is killed in Tarman Gadon???

 

You forgot to mention how he is a complete fool.

 

I've always considered Taim to be exactly what you describe and have argued repeatedly about how there is nothing to say Taim is anything more than that. There is no doubt a significant number of his inner sactum are Darkfriends, but there is nothing conclusive to say Taim himself is. If he were truly dark, and drawing that much attention, his underlings would have bailed. They won't want to go down with him. As things stand though, he provides great cover for the real Darkfrieds because no one will look at them twice with Taim running around.

 

People keep talk about the "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" line at the end of Knife of Dreams and how his cronies were laughing at Pevara with him. I read it and saw them to be laughing at him instead. He was the unwitting target of his own joke.

[cannon]

I think Taim is definitely a DarkFriend, although I agree with everything else you two have said about being a power-hungry fool.

 

For me, the hardest thing overlook when making the argument that he's an unknowing patsy is the colors of his hall. The Red and Black, along with other sigils, etc. definitely point the finger at him being an underling of Moridin's.

 

To explain those things away as him just being stupid is a little too much of a stretch for me. Someone just convinced him those were good colors? Not likely.

 

The other big one is that all four of the Asha'man assassins were darkfriends. He was buddy-buddy with those guys, and no one else was really in the position to get so close to those people, decide who could be turned, and then focus his efforts on those men. Dashiva wasn't thought of as very worthwhile when he was recruited by Rand, so he didn't really have the oppurtunity. Only Taim.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Who said Taim turned them after the arrived at the Tower? Those four Asha'man Darkfriends were also taking orders directly from Demandred and Morridin. Those, and the ones still there, could have gone to the Tower under orders and simply manipulated Taim until to get where they are now. Just because we know Rochaid, Kisman and co. received an order from Taim to kill Rand doesn't meen he was going to try doing so without the one from Demandred.

 

Taim as a minnion actually takes a serious beating from that little PoV in Winter's Heart. Demandred, as a supposed gifted military commander, would not have issued orders to Rochaid and Kisman directly if he was already acting through Taim. Moridin wouldn't have issued potentially conflicting ones the same way either. He has shown the usage of chain of command too and only stepped in when there was argument about a persons right to issue orders. That seems to leave Taim acting on his own when he gave the order.

[CrazyMike]

There is still one issue I would like to hear from everyone about

 

(3) and Finaly ,,, if Taim is a dark Friend or Forsaken why wouldn't he and his Men simply use the KISS to enslave the RED's and then Pretend to be Bonded to them so they could gain access to the White Tower,,, the Aes Sedai that are bonded by the Kiss are so enslved that they could be commanded to act as though they were in a Normal Aes Sedai/Warder Bond and not betray the Dark Friends that controled them,,, no one would be able to tell the difference ,,, and then they could take one of the Dread Lords to Elaida in her Tower Office and KISS her there,,, this seems more reasonable an approach than the Chaos of letting the Reds actualy Bond the men

[Guest cwestervelt]

I can't answer you that one. Then again, I've I have always said the evidence against Taim is entirely too circumstantial and doesn't hold up so I not the one that needs to. You probably won't get a satisfactory answer though. They would probably start by bringing up the Oath against lying and try to say how the Aes Sedai would all choke to death when asked about it.

[CrazyMike]

It seems to me that the KISS Binding or Bond would Overpower the 3 Oaths that were imposed by the Oath Rod that is in the White Tower,,, and a simple command to foreswear all other Oaths would be all that is needed to Break that Bond or Binding ,,, I believe that the KISS Bond is Stronger and more Powerful,,, but I could be wrong

[Bob T Dwarf]

You need an Oath Rod to unbind oaths sworn on an Oath Rod.

[Simple Gleeman]

You need an Oath Rod to unbind oaths sworn on an Oath Rod.

 

Or loyalty to the Dark One =)

[Guest cwestervelt]

Bob is correct. When a Binder is used, the oath that is taken literally becomes a part of the person's innermost being. There are references throughout the books, particularly with newly raised Sisters (Moirain in New Spring) that indicates a physical sensation when the Oath is taken and bound.

 

Loyalty to Shai'tan doesn't exempt you from the Oaths taken when being raised. The Black Ajah still use the Oath Rod to release the original three before swearing new ones.

[mightisright]

One thing people are overlooking. Taim gave the Reds permission to ASK men if they will become warders, not to just bond them against their wishes. Unlike Rand who allowed them to take any dedicated or soldiers until they reached a matching number of bonded. At the very least it isn't clear what Taim intends as far as asking/not asking.

[Luckers]

Not necessarily true. The Aes Sedai are unaware of any issues controlling a male channeller. The whole purpose of them wanting to bond Asha'man is based on their ability to control them being used to prevent the Asha'man from Channelling. There is a good possibility that the Asha'man do know they can't be controlled easily. Rand proved that already during Lord of Chaos. Since at least Winter's Heart, there have been other Asha'man that were bonded though. Plenty of time for word to spread among them that compelling them is problematic at best.

 

Up until recently those bonded have had no reason to talk of their bonds. We know that Rand, for instance, kept his secret (Min only found out recently) and the others originally agree so as to avoid Taim and his men, who had labled them traitors. Since then the amount of back and forth conversation has been non-existant. Meanwhile, the men have seen Logain and his crew successfully dominate their Aes Sedai with their bonds...

 

I think they would have no reason to suspect it would be any different.

 

Which is exactly the reason that Taim agreed to it, then laughed and made the "Let the Lord of Choas rule." joke.

 

Agreed.

 

(1) I was under the impression that Taim only had 40 followers ,,, from when Logain was talking to Rand about Taim and his followersin book 11

 

He describes 40 or 50 Asha'men living in the palace, and another 50 who are taking private lessons with Taim in prerperation of that honour. This coincides with what we see in Pevara's POV.

 

Taim as a minnion actually takes a serious beating from that little PoV in Winter's Heart. Demandred, as a supposed gifted military commander, would not have issued orders to Rochaid and Kisman directly if he was already acting through Taim. Moridin wouldn't have issued potentially conflicting ones the same way either. He has shown the usage of chain of command too and only stepped in when there was argument about a persons right to issue orders. That seems to leave Taim acting on his own when he gave the order.

 

Agreed, and if Taim did order the Trollocs in KoD this goes a long way to pushing the fact that he was acting outside the perview of the Shadow. I think as a Forsaken, Taim is acting just like the rest of them... in his own best interest.

 

(3) and Finaly ,,, if Taim is a dark Friend or Forsaken why wouldn't he and his Men simply use the KISS to enslave the RED's and then Pretend to be Bonded to them so they could gain access to the White Tower,,, the Aes Sedai that are bonded by the Kiss are so enslved that they could be commanded to act as though they were in a Normal Aes Sedai/Warder Bond and not betray the Dark Friends that controled them,,, no one would be able to tell the difference ,,, and then they could take one of the Dread Lords to Elaida in her Tower Office and KISS her there,,, this seems more reasonable an approach than the Chaos of letting the Reds actualy Bond the men

 

This is not a half bad question. Aside from the fact that they'd be asked about it upon returning to the tower, and would be unable to lie (something which i doubt ever occured to taim) there would be problems to making it work. The bond allows control, yes, but not to the degree of the oath rod. Given that the Asha'men could not be held in the Tower itself, giving those commands becomes problematic. My guess though is simply that Taim didn't think of it, or if did, worried about what safeguards the Aes sedai had set in place originally... surely he would suspect it of them.

 

Finally, it would reveal his hand completely if discovered. I doubt he'd risk that. In all other situations he's had people to blaim--Kisman and all that, the Aiel in the attack on Demira, Sammael in the Trolloc assault... but this would be directly tied to him.

 

It seems to me that the KISS Binding or Bond would Overpower the 3 Oaths that were imposed by the Oath Rod that is in the White Tower,,, and a simple command to foreswear all other Oaths would be all that is needed to Break that Bond or Binding ,,, I believe that the KISS Bond is Stronger and more Powerful,,, but I could be wrong

 

No, the oaths are more powerful then a bond. Or rather that is to say they wouldn't be superceded... if given conflicting orders it could possibly result in something similar to what happened to the feret when Pevara ordered her to admit something she thought was true to be a lie.

 

Bob T Dwarf wrote:

You need an Oath Rod to unbind oaths sworn on an Oath Rod.

 

 

Or loyalty to the Dark One =)

 

No, loyalty to the Dark One does not break the oaths. The Black Ajah utilize the Oath Rod to foreswear their oaths, and replace them with a new three.

[CrazyMike]

The KISS versus the 3 OATHS or OATH ROD

 

HHhhhmmmm ,,,, ok ,,, if the OATH ROD is stronger than the KISS ,,, and ,,, the 3 Oaths prevent an Aes Sedai from Lying ,,, and ,,, RED Sisters Bond and inslaved by the Kiss must still obey the 3 Oaths no matter what command their KISS Master gives them ,,,

 

HHHhhhhmmmm ,,, what to do ?

 

Maybe ,,, you command the RED Sister to believe that she has Bonded the Asha Man and that she is in control ,,, and ,,, maybe then you also command her to obey secret signals or code words ,,, and maybe then you also set out for her an imperative to occomplish certain goals in her own way, such as getting ELAIDA to meet with the returned sisters and accept her own personel Bonded Ashaman ,,, and you could also convince her that certain actions are necesary to the survival of the Human race and the White Tower ???

also ,,, you could command her to NOT be conciously aware of her subvisive Dark Commands ,,, in fact didn't one of RANDS Freindly Aes Sedai go around and convince some Dark Freind or BLACK AHDJA sisters to help Rand to get him to TG , ya know, when he cleaned the Source???

 

HHHhhhhmmmm ,,, maybe that would do the trick,,, what do you think???

[Luckers]

Neither the Oath Rod nor the Kiss has any control on the persons personality or thoughts, just on their actions. Moiraine for instance can think lies, and Toveine decided to do things that she cannot actually do when first commanded to by Logain. I doubt a command would be strong enough to overcome their thoughts and make them believe.

 

As for Elza and Verin, that was pure compulsion, and by all acounts much stronger then whats used in the bond. That being said it is also specifically set up... the person must be offbalance, not suspecting, and not retaining memory of the incident. This wouldn't work on Pevara... It is also my belief that Elza's beliefs are an attempt by her mind to come to grips with her new desire to see the Dragon through the last battle. Pevara's wariness of the Asha'men would essentially make it impossible for her to come to such a mental loop.

[dicetosser1]

when kisman is in far madding he thinks about his orders. He mentions 3 people who gave them orders to kill rand. One of them was Taim the others demendred and moridin. He says that it seemed like Demandred didnt know of the M"haels orders

 

Doesnt that basically prove Taim is a DarkFriend???

[Shaidar_Rannow]

Here is proof in a way of Taims involvment in dark dealings as I believe it. In KoD at the end a man speaks up against the bondings and Taim well puts an end to it...I believe this was meant to silence what hes was going to say not just for ceremony, but perhaps to keep what he wishes hidden, like their dark involvement. Aes Sedai have always been able to ponder the answers out of even the most subborn so by shutting him up he did not give Pevara anything to think or second guess. I do not believe that Taim even has a direct connection with DRed but only with Mordin. Perhaps he is simply mad though, we are given hints of madness thanks to LTT so we know he certainly meats the criteria. :?:

[CrazyMike]

Asha'man KISS versus the OATH ROD

 

I believe I've remembered something that disproves the belief that the Oath Rod is unbeatable and here it is:

any logical mind can see the proof that the KISS would be able to overcome the constrictions of the OATH ROD

Because, when the SENCHAN use the Collors on Aes Sedai the Aes Sedai is able to Violate the 3 Oaths

How?

By Using the Source to attack people that are not attacking the Aes Sedai; this is one of the 3 Oaths that Bind the Aes Sedai; They can not use the Power to attack any human that is not Attacking them or at least making them believe that they are personaly in Danger of Physical Harm!

 

However , when under the control of the Collar's they have to obey the woman holding the leash and they do Attack men and women who are not attacking them and at a time when they are not even in any personal danger!

 

So, therefore, the Kiss could be used to overpower the restrictions of the OATH ROD as in my earlier post5,,, also when Rand Cleansed the Source of the Taint (WH, Chpt. 35), the Aes Sedai on top of the Hill with him were launching Long Range Attacks against the Foresaken that came to stop Rand, given they may have felt in Danger but more likely in my mind is that the Mental weaves or Spirit weaves of Compulsion put on several of them including Cadsuane Melaidhrin by Verin Mathwin were able to somehow overcome the restrictions of the OATH ROD,,, maybe by changing their own perceptions of reality...

 

Still all in all ,,, I believe that the KISS could be used to overcome the 3 OATHs of the OATH ROD even if only by deception and a kind of Left end run around the mental blocks put up by the Oath Rod,,, after all the Sencan Leash and Collar can overcome the Oath of the OATH ROD...