What caused "Jesus Rand"?

[haloun]

it also kinda fits with him having used a sword that was described as red fire. where now he carries callandor which i would imagine have a more blueish greenish tint since it is made of crystal.

[Entreri]

Jesus Rand now has access to the Light, a counterbalance to the Dark. As a being of Light, his brightness blinds anything or anyone created by Dark.

 

And it appears when he wields the Power in sufficient amounts, that brightness increases, leading to the deaths of DF's and others.

 

 

He may also have a 'permanent' link to the One Power. This is either due to his new Light connection or him wielding such a colossal amount of the OP at Dragonmount, enough to destroy the world in 1 blow. Egwene commented that 13 AS would not be enough to hold him.

 

Rand's new children/Avienhda, also appear to have a special connection to the OP. They can channel as children and always wields the OP, even during their sleep and they can weave the OP as fast as thought! If only he had those children now, well at least grown up, they would annihilate the Forsaken, with a possible exception of Ishamael (TP) in a one-on-one confrontation!

[herid]

Jesus Rand now has access to the Light, a counterbalance to the Dark. As a being of Light, his brightness blinds anything or anyone created by Dark.

 

And it appears when he wields the Power in sufficient amounts, that brightness increases, leading to the deaths of DF's and others.

 

 

He may also have a 'permanent' link to the One Power. This is either due to his new Light connection or him wielding such a colossal amount of the OP at Dragonmount, enough to destroy the world in 1 blow. Egwene commented that 13 AS would not be enough to hold him.

 

Rand's new children/Avienhda, also appear to have a special connection to the OP. They can channel as children and always wields the OP, even during their sleep and they can weave the OP as fast as thought! If only he had those children now, well at least grown up, they would annihilate the Forsaken, with a possible exception of Ishamael (TP) in a one-on-one confrontation!

I like the idea of a permanent link to saidin but I never understood how it's supposed to work with respect to shields and the Far Madding ter'angreal. would his permanent link to saidin make him impossible to shield by Egwene's Aes Sedai? and what about his behavior in Far Madding? does the ter'angreal there affect him? I would expect it should. but if not then why does he ask Cadsuane to be ready with a gateway? If he can channel saidin in Far Madding he can handle whatever happens there all by himself.

[JohnathonOliva]

I also find the following quote interesting

 

He closed his eyes, drawing in more and more power, feeling as he had only twice before. Once when he had cleansed saidin. Once when he had created this mountain.

When LTT created Dragonmount he didn't use any angreal or sa'angreal. how could it be that he felt anything close to what Rand was feeling with the aid of Choedan Kal?

 

 

i think it s possible he pulled that much power to him there have been many cases when a channeler pulled on so much of the one power that they did godlike things example being the last queen of manetheren i not sure but when a channeler exceeds there limit it never spacifically states that they die immediatly maybe if under enough emotional duress they can draw on unimaginable amounts of the one power

[Guest PiotrekS]

I wonder why we didn't get almost any Rand's POVs in ToM. Maybe it's because there is something more to his change than meets the eye. It is also interesting why he keeps emphasizing that he lacks the time to do all he needs to do. I'm aware of the most obvious explanation- that Tarmon Gai'don is coming - but isn't his schedule a little too specific for that? He has no way of knowing that the Dard One will break free in exactly 30 days or so.

 

Maybe the Creator has intervened to keep Rand sane and on the Light side, but the effects of this intervention will last only about 30 days and that's why Rand is so much in the hurry. Maybe that is also the reason of lack of his POVs - they would have to show some internal struggle against the darkness, maybe one that is doomed to fail in time - and RJ and Brandon didn't want to reveal that too soon. ToM has given Rand a powerful and positive boost, I'm afraid that in AMoL the price will have to be paid.

[PhoenixUK]

Given the quote mentioned from TEOTW where the Creator states that He will not directly intervene, I do not like the idea that Rand's new mental state is from the Creator. I think it is a side effect of integrating your past life into your present life. Someone said in one of the early books that NO ONE remembers their past lives. Rand however does now. He is unique in this age, a very specific rebirth. I think it is related to that.

 

Unfortunately this doesn't explain his Dark repelling aura that undoes the general corruption and decay of the Dark One's touch on the world. He caused rotting crops to spontaneously regenerate. That does smack of divine intervention. I don't like it, but even Tolkien resorted to the direct hand of Eru in his plot (Gandalf's resurrection).

[haloun]

Maybe he got an exact timeline, and now knows that unless he acts in thirty days, demandred will march in behind and attack, wheras if he goes too early, demandred can just gate straight to SG and be there to block him. it requires precise timing to avoid the pincer that the shadow has been planning for 6 books now.

[Bluedust9]

Maybe he got an exact timeline, and now knows that unless he acts in thirty days, demandred will march in behind and attack, wheras if he goes too early, demandred can just gate straight to SG and be there to block him. it requires precise timing to avoid the pincer that the shadow has been planning for 6 books now.

 

 

There's a quote in KOD by Rand I think, saying he needs to defeat the DO because the Pattern is unraveling quickly and if he takes too long there won't be a Pattern to fight for. He can probably sense the threads and knows he has to do this now before everything's unwoven.

[Terez]

tl;dr

 

Nynaeve learns to heal madness, but when she goes to heal it in Rand, the points of darkness entering his brain are surrounded by light. Okay, no where did THAT come from? Let's leap to the end of TGS...Rand on a mountain, destroying the Choeden Kal, and coming to the realization that he and LLT were not two men and never had been. And now, he by all reports is completely sane, with the memories of both. All well and good, but the madness is still there, in his brain, and this light is protecting him from it?

 

Where did this come from, and why did it happen the moment he destroyed the Choeden Kal? When Rand was absorbing all this energy, did he inadvertently do this himself? Can I get 101 more insane "Creator" theories? Perhaps it was as simple as he DID do it to himself, and the Choeden Kal was just too much temptation in power, or is there something more to this? Discuss!

I have been exploring this possibility in the Rand/Moridin article I'm working on. It can't be coincidence that Rand happened to be holding more of the Power than anyone ever had before when his brain was warded away from the taint.

 

However, that's just the taint, and has little to do with 'Jesus Rand' IMO, and more to do with Rand being One With the Land, and also a great deal to do with nothing being in Rand's POV till the end. There are a lot of little Jesus Rand moments that have very plausible alternate explanations. For example, Rand's supposed ability to 'see' Darkfriends. He can't. He does have a particular effect on Darkfriends, but he had to push the issue with Weiramon to get a confirmation of what was in Verin's letter. He wasn't sure that Weiramon was a Darkfriend until the man wouldn't look him in the eyes. Rand said, "It is you." - obviously a confirmation of something that he had reason to suspect, but did not want to believe. The crazy effect on Torkumen and his wife seems to have been because Rand was channeling. A lot.

 

I wonder if Rand somehow managed to stretch his ability with the One Power on Dragonmount, to the point that he can't truly be disconnected from it. It would explain his children. But other than that, I think Rand's Fisher King and ta'veren abilities have been somewhat suppressed and clouded because of his madness, and now they're freed up a little bit on top of being more positive than before.

 

Aside from all of these Great and Wonderful Things, I think the link with Moridin is still a huge danger, though Rand is less inclined to outwardly show signs of Moridinness now that he thinks happy thoughts.

 

As I recall, it's because Frieza killed Krillin, then Goku--oops, I mean Rand, so exhausted and near death himself, used the pain of loss from his friends death to dig deep into himself and found the mother-load.

 

That's how Rand achieved Super Saijan.

lol. I'd like to see Rand vs. Goku. To be fair, Rand's tap into the mother-load was at least intricately foreshadowed, rather than random-friend-killing-for-plot-convenience, which happens ALL THE TIME in DBZ. Of course, the greatest time was when Buu turned Chichi into an egg and stomped on her.

[Guest PiotrekS]

tl;dr

 

Nynaeve learns to heal madness, but when she goes to heal it in Rand, the points of darkness entering his brain are surrounded by light. Okay, no where did THAT come from? Let's leap to the end of TGS...Rand on a mountain, destroying the Choeden Kal, and coming to the realization that he and LLT were not two men and never had been. And now, he by all reports is completely sane, with the memories of both. All well and good, but the madness is still there, in his brain, and this light is protecting him from it?

 

Where did this come from, and why did it happen the moment he destroyed the Choeden Kal? When Rand was absorbing all this energy, did he inadvertently do this himself? Can I get 101 more insane "Creator" theories? Perhaps it was as simple as he DID do it to himself, and the Choeden Kal was just too much temptation in power, or is there something more to this? Discuss!

I have been exploring this possibility in the Rand/Moridin article I'm working on. It can't be coincidence that Rand happened to be holding more of the Power than anyone ever had before when his brain was warded away from the taint.

 

However, that's just the taint, and has little to do with 'Jesus Rand' IMO, and more to do with Rand being One With the Land, and also a great deal to do with nothing being in Rand's POV till the end. There are a lot of little Jesus Rand moments that have very plausible alternate explanations. For example, Rand's supposed ability to 'see' Darkfriends. He can't. He does have a particular effect on Darkfriends, but he had to push the issue with Weiramon to get a confirmation of what was in Verin's letter. He wasn't sure that Weiramon was a Darkfriend until the man wouldn't look him in the eyes. Rand said, "It is you." - obviously a confirmation of something that he had reason to suspect, but did not want to believe. The crazy effect on Torkumen and his wife seems to have been because Rand was channeling. A lot.

 

I wonder if Rand somehow managed to stretch his ability with the One Power on Dragonmount, to the point that he can't truly be disconnected from it. It would explain his children. But other than that, I think Rand's Fisher King and ta'veren abilities have been somewhat suppressed and clouded because of his madness, and now they're freed up a little bit on top of being more positive than before.

 

Aside from all of these Great and Wonderful Things, I think the link with Moridin is still a huge danger, though Rand is less inclined to outwardly show signs of Moridinness now that he thinks happy thoughts.

 

Terez, I would appreciate it if you could give some more examples of altnernate explanations of "Jesus Rand moments", because apart from "seeing darkfriends" -in which I agree with you that he can't - I'm not sure I see any

 

I doubt whether Torkumen's and his wife's reactions can be attributed just to channeling - in fact, we have been shown that non-channelers are unable to see the flows or sense the power. Why should better technique of channeling-because that's what I think happened, Rand was channeling with Lews Therin's technical proficiency - cause so fundamentally different an effect?It should also be mentioned that none of the Forseken or darkfriends (Elza) suffered anything similar when Rand was channeling huge amounts of the Power during the Cleansing.

On the other hand, Moraine mentioned early in the Series that maybe she would be able to sense a darkfriend if they would be far enough gone into Shadow. So maybe Rand, being more powerful in the Power than Moraine has the ability to sense darkfiends or cause in them something akin to allergic reaction

 

I agree that the link to Moridin remains dangerous -and to both of them, I think.

 

Brandon said there would be consequences of Rand having touched the True Power. Have we seen all of them (Dark Rand in TGS) or are they the reason why we don't see Rand's POVs in ToM?

[Entreri]

Jesus Rand now has access to the Light, a counterbalance to the Dark. As a being of Light, his brightness blinds anything or anyone created by Dark.

 

And it appears when he wields the Power in sufficient amounts, that brightness increases, leading to the deaths of DF's and others.

 

 

He may also have a 'permanent' link to the One Power. This is either due to his new Light connection or him wielding such a colossal amount of the OP at Dragonmount, enough to destroy the world in 1 blow. Egwene commented that 13 AS would not be enough to hold him.

 

Rand's new children/Avienhda, also appear to have a special connection to the OP. They can channel as children and always wields the OP, even during their sleep and they can weave the OP as fast as thought! If only he had those children now, well at least grown up, they would annihilate the Forsaken, with a possible exception of Ishamael (TP) in a one-on-one confrontation!

I like the idea of a permanent link to saidin but I never understood how it's supposed to work with respect to shields and the Far Madding ter'angreal. would his permanent link to saidin make him impossible to shield by Egwene's Aes Sedai? and what about his behavior in Far Madding? does the ter'angreal there affect him? I would expect it should. but if not then why does he ask Cadsuane to be ready with a gateway? If he can channel saidin in Far Madding he can handle whatever happens there all by himself.

 

Good question, let me try to answer that. I hope number 1 makes sense.

 

The ter'angreal affects are different than being cut off from the Source. There is no Source to link to...While his link to the Source could be permanent, but in order for that to work, there needs to be a Source to latch on to.

 

 

The Dragon being One with the Land is a specific to the Creator's Chosen One and this how he is counter acts the DO's touch. Mat and Perrin have no such impact. LTT should have this kind of impact in AoL.

 

Him blinding the DF's is due to his access to this Light that Nynaeve discovers in his mind. This is unique to the Creator's Chosen. I wonder if LTT was able to access this...if he did, why did he go mad from the taint?

 

His 'permanent' connection to the OP is something new IMO. This came about as the result of wielding that immense amount of the OP. There is no indication that LTT's children or anyone else ever had this kind of ability as Rand's children. This is something completely new and not an innate ability of being the Creator's Chosen.

 

The Creator acts through his Chosen One, who has special powers/abilities that nobody else has. The DO takes direct part in the Pattern, not only through his Chosen.

[herid]

 

I wonder if Rand somehow managed to stretch his ability with the One Power on Dragonmount, to the point that he can't truly be disconnected from it. It would explain his children. But other than that, I think Rand's Fisher King and ta'veren abilities have been somewhat suppressed and clouded because of his madness, and now they're freed up a little bit on top of being more positive than before.

 

 

I like the theory about a permanent link to saidin. It seems to be a popular one here and it would explain a lot of things like why Rand no longer seems to have channeling sickness. But I can't reconcile it with his behavior with respect to shields and the Far Madding ter'angreal. Let's examine the Far Madding encounter as there are more clues there. If Rand is permanently connected to saidin but the ter'angreal still shields him then he should buckle under with channeling sickness the moment he enters the ter'angreal radius as the sickness comes on when he either seizes or releases saidin. However, none of this happens. Narishma reacts to loosing access to saidin but Rand, who really ought to react and quite violently, gives no sign.

 

Narishma hissed softly, riding behind. Min glanced at him. The Asha'man's face had gone hard. Apparently, they'd passed inside the bubble of the Guardian's influence. Rand gave no indication he'd noticed. He didn't seem to be having the trouble with sickness when he channeled any longer, which relieved her. Or was he just covering it?

So what does it mean? It would seem it can only mean that Rand is still holding saidin and his connection to saidin is unaffected. (That would also explain his behavior in the Tower). However, he asks Cadsuane to be ready to make a gateway with her well. Why? why does he need her at all if he is still connected to saidin? She can only make a small gateway with her well and given what he did at Maradon Rand can probably handle all the danger around him all by himself and make any number of gateways while he is about it. So what in the name of Zarquon is going on here?

 

And even if we discard the permanent link to saidin theory there are still problems. Rand shows Naeff a weave to disguise himself right before they visit Far Madding. if he is not permanently tied to saidin he has to get channeling sickness when he does it. Nothing of the sort is mentioned. The only semi-reasonable explanation I can see at the moment is that Rand is permanently tied to saidin, he is unaffected by the Far Madding Guardian and that he asks Cadsuane for a gateway only as an extra precaution. But this last part seems very weak to me given how she describes what she can do and what Rand himself can do if he is not shielded.

 

 

 

I like the idea of a permanent link to saidin but I never understood how it's supposed to work with respect to shields and the Far Madding ter'angreal. would his permanent link to saidin make him impossible to shield by Egwene's Aes Sedai? and what about his behavior in Far Madding? does the ter'angreal there affect him? I would expect it should. but if not then why does he ask Cadsuane to be ready with a gateway? If he can channel saidin in Far Madding he can handle whatever happens there all by himself.

 

Good question, let me try to answer that. I hope number 1 makes sense.

 

The ter'angreal affects are different than being cut off from the Source. There is no Source to link to...While his link to the Source could be permanent, but in order for that to work, there needs to be a Source to latch on to.

 

 

 

 

I think in this case he would get a serious bout of channeling sickness when he enters the radius of the Far Madding Ter'angreal. He doesn't.

[Entreri]

"I think in this case he would get a serious bout of channeling sickness when he enters the radius of the Far Madding Ter'angreal. He doesn't."

 

The Light connection in his mind is blocking the sickness? Like you mentioned, he does not show any sickness when he shows Naeff how to disguise himself. He also does not show any sickness as far as we can tell when he destroyed that Trolloc Army. He only showed the fatigue from over extending himself...too long wielding a lot of Power (which happened to him before in Fires of Heaven).

 

Those 13 AS were terrified of him, 2 full circles following him. Those AS knew, like Egwene did that Rand could break the shield at his leisure.

[rcfleming4]

Those 13 AS were terrified of him, 2 full circles following him. Those AS knew, like Egwene did that Rand could break the shield at his leisure.

 

But it was indicated that he WAS shielded. Wouldn't the shields have bounced if he couldn't be kept from the Source?

 

I don't think he could channel in Far Madding; he was just confident and he knew that he needed the borderlanders. So he did what he had to.

[herid]

Those 13 AS were terrified of him, 2 full circles following him. Those AS knew, like Egwene did that Rand could break the shield at his leisure.

 

But it was indicated that he WAS shielded. Wouldn't the shields have bounced if he couldn't be kept from the Source?

 

 

that's why I thought that this connection may be similar to a well. Those work in Far Madding and one can channel from a well while shielded. Jordan said so.

 

Q: Can someone channel from a Well while shielded?

 

RJ: Yes, they could. If they had the Well.

 

[tarvalon.net Q&A 26th of Febuary 2003, found through the Theoryland Interview Database]

 

But this still doesn't square with Rand's behavior in Far Madding.

[jemron]

I'm revising my opinion slightly. The answer is found in the "the Dragon is one with the land and the land one with the Dragon" phrase that enters into the series very early on.

 

I think, now that Rand has truly become THE DRAGON (not just the Dragon Reborn, but Lews Therin, the Dragon) he now has that special gift/ability that only the Dragon has. It's as simple as that. The "Zhen/Jesus Rand" is just Rand with Lews Therin's memories/experiences completely in his head, and he now has all the abilities and gifts that Lews Therin himself had in the AoL. This includes his ability to sense individuals, and to feel/sense the land around him.

 

Throughout the series, everyone thought that the DO getting closer to free was causing the crazy weather, but I'm convinced now that it was because the influence of the Shadow was slowly seeping into Rand. Now that he has overcome that, the land is healing/getting better because he wills it so and knows now that he has that ability.

 

The question is, how/why does the Dragon get that special ability? Is it Creator given? Is it just because he's a super special ta'veren/Champion of the Light? Or something else?

[cdm299]

Throughout the series, everyone thought that the DO getting closer to free was causing the crazy weather, but I'm convinced now that it was because the influence of the Shadow was slowly seeping into Rand. Now that he has overcome that, the land is healing/getting better because he wills it so and knows now that he has that ability.

 

 

I think you are absolutely right that the weather was caused by the DO influencing Rand.

 

It seems clear that the DO's plan was to drive Rand mad with despair, anger etc., and thus turn him into 'Dark Rand' (and possibly even get him addicted to the TP), which he very nearly succeeded in doing. What I'm curious about though is did the DO know Dark Rand would be tempted to destroy the world like he almost did in VoG? If he had destroyed the world while he was on top of Dragonmount, would that have been a victory for the DO? I always thought that the DO wanted to remake the world in his image, not just annihilate it completely, in which case he would have as much to lose from Rand destroying everything. Perhaps the DO didn't anticipte that once he'd manipulated Rand into becoming Dark Rand, Rand would almost use the CK to nuke the world.

[jemron]

Throughout the series, everyone thought that the DO getting closer to free was causing the crazy weather, but I'm convinced now that it was because the influence of the Shadow was slowly seeping into Rand. Now that he has overcome that, the land is healing/getting better because he wills it so and knows now that he has that ability.

 

 

I think you are absolutely right that the weather was caused by the DO influencing Rand.

 

It seems clear that the DO's plan was to drive Rand mad with despair, anger etc., and thus turn him into 'Dark Rand' (and possibly even get him addicted to the TP), which he very nearly succeeded in doing. What I'm curious about though is did the DO know Dark Rand would be tempted to destroy the world like he almost did in VoG? If he had destroyed the world while he was on top of Dragonmount, would that have been a victory for the DO? I always thought that the DO wanted to remake the world in his image, not just annihilate it completely, in which case he would have as much to lose from Rand destroying everything. Perhaps the DO didn't anticipte that once he'd manipulated Rand into becoming Dark Rand, Rand would almost use the CK to nuke the world.

 

Actually, the DO doesn't want to "remake the world in his image." That's just what almost all of his followers (even the Chosen) think. Ishy/Moridin is the only one who seems to know the DO's true intent, which is to literally destroy the Pattern and the world and leave nothing in its place. He makes that pretty clear in the dream he and Rand share in TGS, I believe. The reason DFs and the Chosen are so useful to the DO is because of their selfishness (they want to rule in a "new world" the DO has promised them), but only Moridin truly WANTS to never be reborn again. He wants to cease to exist for some unknown reason, and so he was on board with the DO's plan to completely destroy the world (hopefully through Rand). Since this failed, we'll see what will happen next... I'm assuming the DO wanted Rand to use balefire "in his name" as he asked Demandred in LoC.