Which two Aes Sedai will Mat choose between?

[Grandis]

His ignorance of the contents of the letter is irrelevant. He had a choice to make. Choosing Moiraine led to her being rescued. Choosing Verin leads to Caemlyn and Moiraine being rescued. It does not matter that he did not know this, since the wheel does, and it's the wheel that supplies the prophesy.

 

/I'm not sure if my post is getting my point across

 

Correct me if i'm wrong but I believe the point you are trying to make is this. Had Mat chosen to open the letter from Verin he would have had time to both take care of the waygate in Caemlyn and go to the ToG to rescue Moiraine. If that is the point i will agree with that hands down. But i have to disagree that his ignorance of the contents of the letter is irrelevant. I can count on one hand how many Aes Sedai there are in the series Mat doesn't look sideways at. Moiraine, now Teslyn, and to a somewhat lesser degree Nyn, Elyane, and Egwene.

 

Would opening the letter have delayed him? From my POV no, from Mats POV yes.

 

This is the prophesy the wheel supplied to Egwene in the dream; Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps. The only thing that matters is whether choosing Verin would actually exclude Moiraine, not whether Mat thinks it would. Since choosing Verin would have left him with plenty of time to rescue Moiraine, we must conclude that it wouldn't. Logically this means that either the dream did not refer to Verin/Moiraine, or Mat made the wrong choice.

 

But you now know what was in the letter. Mat didn't know (and still doesn't). If I remember right, if Mat opened the letter he had to do what it said, no matter what. He had to promise that. What if the letter said he had to travel to the Aiel Waste and sit on his butt until the Last Battle was over? He had to decide to save Moiraine or do exactly what Verin told him to do in the letter.

 

When I first read the Moiraine/Verin idea, I thought it was hogwash. I now think that it's very possible.

 

James

 

The point is that it doesn't matter what Mat does and doesn't know. The prophesy, if it refers to Verin/Moiraine, would know. That is all that matters.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I'm very surprised that this question seems so controversial. I try to stay away from topics where someone else in the thread said everything I could say but I thought I'd add my 2 cents here anyway. To me there is no doubt that the dream means Verin and Moiraine. Nothing I've seen in this thread changed my opinion. Mat clearly agonizes about whether or not to open Verin's letter. he even mentions that refraining from opening it was one of the hardest things he's done. To me that's a very good analogy with weighing on scales and I view the actual content of the letter as irrelevant. On top of this there are neat tie ins with other dreams and events which I think have been mentioned in this thread but let me summarize them.

 

Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.

IMO this ties in very well with

Half the light of the world. To save the world.

Also, the weighing on scales ties in with another dream of Egwene (DR Ch25):

Those about Mat had been even nastier. Mat, placing his own left eye on a balance scale.

At least this one is not in doubt - Mat sacrificing his eye to save Moiraine. Presence of balance scales in both dreams is highly suggestive IMO.

 

 

Seems to imply more that he would have to choose between Rand or Egwene, particularly concerning the stakes the book keeps hinting at. Rand certainly walked around insisting people call him "Rand Sedai" and behaving Aes Sedai to the most extreme. To the point that even seasoned Aes Sedai claimed he was behaving "Aes Sedai." I guess he finally came to terms with his former Amyrlin LTT life.

[Grandis]

I'm very surprised that this question seems so controversial. I try to stay away from topics where someone else in the thread said everything I could say but I thought I'd add my 2 cents here anyway. To me there is no doubt that the dream means Verin and Moiraine. Nothing I've seen in this thread changed my opinion. Mat clearly agonizes about whether or not to open Verin's letter. he even mentions that refraining from opening it was one of the hardest things he's done. To me that's a very good analogy with weighing on scales and I view the actual content of the letter as irrelevant. On top of this there are neat tie ins with other dreams and events which I think have been mentioned in this thread but let me summarize them.

 

Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.

IMO this ties in very well with

Half the light of the world. To save the world.

Also, the weighing on scales ties in with another dream of Egwene (DR Ch25):

Those about Mat had been even nastier. Mat, placing his own left eye on a balance scale.

At least this one is not in doubt - Mat sacrificing his eye to save Moiraine. Presence of balance scales in both dreams is highly suggestive IMO.

 

 

Seems to imply more that he would have to choose between Rand or Egwene, particularly concerning the stakes the book keeps hinting at. Rand certainly walked around insisting people call him "Rand Sedai" and behaving Aes Sedai to the most extreme. To the point that even seasoned Aes Sedai claimed he was behaving "Aes Sedai." I guess he finally came to terms with his former Amyrlin LTT life.

 

He did it once, and it came across, to me at least, as slightly tongue in cheek.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I'm very surprised that this question seems so controversial. I try to stay away from topics where someone else in the thread said everything I could say but I thought I'd add my 2 cents here anyway. To me there is no doubt that the dream means Verin and Moiraine. Nothing I've seen in this thread changed my opinion. Mat clearly agonizes about whether or not to open Verin's letter. he even mentions that refraining from opening it was one of the hardest things he's done. To me that's a very good analogy with weighing on scales and I view the actual content of the letter as irrelevant. On top of this there are neat tie ins with other dreams and events which I think have been mentioned in this thread but let me summarize them.

 

Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.

IMO this ties in very well with

Half the light of the world. To save the world.

Also, the weighing on scales ties in with another dream of Egwene (DR Ch25):

Those about Mat had been even nastier. Mat, placing his own left eye on a balance scale.

At least this one is not in doubt - Mat sacrificing his eye to save Moiraine. Presence of balance scales in both dreams is highly suggestive IMO.

 

 

Seems to imply more that he would have to choose between Rand or Egwene, particularly concerning the stakes the book keeps hinting at. Rand certainly walked around insisting people call him "Rand Sedai" and behaving Aes Sedai to the most extreme. To the point that even seasoned Aes Sedai claimed he was behaving "Aes Sedai." I guess he finally came to terms with his former Amyrlin LTT life.

 

He did it once, and it came across, to me at least, as slightly tongue in cheek.

 

Hardly, considering he has more legitimacy to claiming to have been a true Aes Sedai than the assembled group of motley women. He was simply reminding them of that, that they were an offshoot bastardization of a proud order that he once used to lead.

[Mr Ares]

His ignorance of the contents of the letter is irrelevant. He had a choice to make. Choosing Moiraine led to her being rescued. Choosing Verin leads to Caemlyn and Moiraine being rescued. It does not matter that he did not know this, since the wheel does, and it's the wheel that supplies the prophesy.

 

/I'm not sure if my post is getting my point across

 

Correct me if i'm wrong but I believe the point you are trying to make is this. Had Mat chosen to open the letter from Verin he would have had time to both take care of the waygate in Caemlyn and go to the ToG to rescue Moiraine. If that is the point i will agree with that hands down. But i have to disagree that his ignorance of the contents of the letter is irrelevant. I can count on one hand how many Aes Sedai there are in the series Mat doesn't look sideways at. Moiraine, now Teslyn, and to a somewhat lesser degree Nyn, Elyane, and Egwene.

 

Would opening the letter have delayed him? From my POV no, from Mats POV yes.

 

This is the prophesy the wheel supplied to Egwene in the dream; Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps. The only thing that matters is whether choosing Verin would actually exclude Moiraine, not whether Mat thinks it would. Since choosing Verin would have left him with plenty of time to rescue Moiraine, we must conclude that it wouldn't. Logically this means that either the dream did not refer to Verin/Moiraine, or Mat made the wrong choice.

 

But you now know what was in the letter. Mat didn't know (and still doesn't). If I remember right, if Mat opened the letter he had to do what it said, no matter what. He had to promise that. What if the letter said he had to travel to the Aiel Waste and sit on his butt until the Last Battle was over? He had to decide to save Moiraine or do exactly what Verin told him to do in the letter.

 

When I first read the Moiraine/Verin idea, I thought it was hogwash. I now think that it's very possible.

 

James

From the reader's perspective, knowing the contents of the letter, it was save Moiraine, or do as Verin instructed and save Moiraine. From Mat's, it was save Moiraine, or do as Verin instructs and maybe save Moiraine, maybe not. So it was never a choice of one or the other, not from our perpective or his. Therefore it cannot reasonably be considered fulfilment of the prophecy. No matter what choice he made with regards to Verin's letter, he cannot take rescuing Moiraine off the table.

[asha man]

This ongoing conversation has convinced me that I was right, and the two Aes Sedai were Teslyn and Joline.

[Ananta]

 

 

 

This is the prophesy the wheel supplied to Egwene in the dream; Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps. The only thing that matters is whether choosing Verin would actually exclude Moiraine, not whether Mat thinks it would. Since choosing Verin would have left him with plenty of time to rescue Moiraine, we must conclude that it wouldn't. Logically this means that either the dream did not refer to Verin/Moiraine, or Mat made the wrong choice.

 

Mat didn't necessarily make the wrong choice. Maybe Caemlyn had to burn/be destroyed in order for some greater good to happen. Had Mat managed to save Caemlyn it might've led to Dark side winning.

[Nooska]

From the reader's perspective, knowing the contents of the letter, it was save Moiraine, or do as Verin instructed and save Moiraine. From Mat's, it was save Moiraine, or do as Verin instructs and maybe save Moiraine, maybe not. So it was never a choice of one or the other, not from our perpective or his. Therefore it cannot reasonably be considered fulfilment of the prophecy. No matter what choice he made with regards to Verin's letter, he cannot take rescuing Moiraine off the table.

That reasoning isn't legit.

 

From Mat's perspective he has the car he wants from door A. He has Door B, and by opening Door B he can get

1) a box of rotten vegetables that replaces the car

2) a sack of gold AND the car

3) an empty box and the car

 

Now Mat want's the car - why on earth would he open up door 2 even if her knew there was a better than even chance of keeping the car if its just the car he wants? (set aside Mat's luck as it has no effect on the actual choice since chance is not involved in that as it is here).

 

If you want the car, would you, as a matter of course, open door B with a risk of losing the car, just because you have a chance to wins something more? If so, thats not reasonable, rational or logical seeing as you have the prize you want already.

Add to that that Mat has a better than even chance of Verin's request being something that takes away 'the car' according to Mats experience with AS requests. That we, as readers, know the content does not change the choice for Mat, and thereby does not impact on the prophecy's relevance. Thats the same as saying the gameshow host who knows whats behind door b, knowing whats behind door b, means that the choice of teh contestant will be wrong unless the contestant randomly chooses the maximum profit choice. The 3 possibilities above are not equal, its not 3 doors with one of each, its one of them behind the only possible door to choose if you want to gamble.

 

Now that is also the only valid argument I have seen against Mat opening the letter - he should have opened it because his luck or ta'verenism would have made sure that it would be what the pattern needed him to do, and hes a gambler and has become ta've'responsible over the last couple of weeks/months (instory time) - but thats another discussion.

[bronnt]

Anyone else distraught by just how seriously Verin miscalculated with that letter? Obviously, she was still bound by her Black Oath, so she couldn't have just told Mat what was going to happen, but she could have worded his promise a bit differently:

 

"Mat, you're conveniently here. I'm off somewhere dangerous, might die in a day or so. There's some secrets in this letter here-I'll take you to Caemlyn if you promise to read this letter in three days and not before. I need your word that you won't open it in less than three days, or I will not take you to Caemlyn. You're known to keep promises."

 

Wouldn't that have been way too easy and still solved everything?

[Ananta]

Anyone else distraught by just how seriously Verin miscalculated with that letter? Obviously, she was still bound by her Black Oath, so she couldn't have just told Mat what was going to happen, but she could have worded his promise a bit differently:

 

"Mat, you're conveniently here. I'm off somewhere dangerous, might die in a day or so. There's some secrets in this letter here-I'll take you to Caemlyn if you promise to read this letter in three days and not before. I need your word that you won't open it in less than three days, or I will not take you to Caemlyn. You're known to keep promises."

 

Wouldn't that have been way too easy and still solved everything?

 

Unless Caemlyn had to be destroyed in order for light to win. So Verin had to make Mat promise it in a way that would keep the Band near Caemlyn, but also in a way that would prevent Mat from actually preventing the attack on Caemlyn. If that makes any sense. xD

[Grandis]

From the reader's perspective, knowing the contents of the letter, it was save Moiraine, or do as Verin instructed and save Moiraine. From Mat's, it was save Moiraine, or do as Verin instructs and maybe save Moiraine, maybe not. So it was never a choice of one or the other, not from our perpective or his. Therefore it cannot reasonably be considered fulfilment of the prophecy. No matter what choice he made with regards to Verin's letter, he cannot take rescuing Moiraine off the table.

That reasoning isn't legit.

 

From Mat's perspective he has the car he wants from door A. He has Door B, and by opening Door B he can get

1) a box of rotten vegetables that replaces the car

2) a sack of gold AND the car

3) an empty box and the car

 

Now Mat want's the car - why on earth would he open up door 2 even if her knew there was a better than even chance of keeping the car if its just the car he wants? (set aside Mat's luck as it has no effect on the actual choice since chance is not involved in that as it is here).

 

If you want the car, would you, as a matter of course, open door B with a risk of losing the car, just because you have a chance to wins something more? If so, thats not reasonable, rational or logical seeing as you have the prize you want already.

Add to that that Mat has a better than even chance of Verin's request being something that takes away 'the car' according to Mats experience with AS requests. That we, as readers, know the content does not change the choice for Mat, and thereby does not impact on the prophecy's relevance. Thats the same as saying the gameshow host who knows whats behind door b, knowing whats behind door b, means that the choice of teh contestant will be wrong unless the contestant randomly chooses the maximum profit choice. The 3 possibilities above are not equal, its not 3 doors with one of each, its one of them behind the only possible door to choose if you want to gamble.

 

Now that is also the only valid argument I have seen against Mat opening the letter - he should have opened it because his luck or ta'verenism would have made sure that it would be what the pattern needed him to do, and hes a gambler and has become ta've'responsible over the last couple of weeks/months (instory time) - but thats another discussion.

 

You're making the mistake of thinking that Mat's knowledge is in any way relevant here. This is a prophesy. It does not rely on the subject's (Mat's) knowledge, but on the patterns knowledge. Let's say that a prophesy says that Mat is having to choose between two doors; behind one is a nice car, behind the other is a pile of rotting vegetables. Later on it seems like Mat is forced to make just such a choice, where he knows which door the car is behind, and believes that the other door excludes the car. However, we, the reader, learn that the choice he actually had was between a sweet ride, and a sweet ride with a pile of gold in the trunk. Clearly the prophesy could not have referred to this situation, regardless of what Mat believes.

[Grandis]

Anyone else distraught by just how seriously Verin miscalculated with that letter? Obviously, she was still bound by her Black Oath, so she couldn't have just told Mat what was going to happen, but she could have worded his promise a bit differently:

 

"Mat, you're conveniently here. I'm off somewhere dangerous, might die in a day or so. There's some secrets in this letter here-I'll take you to Caemlyn if you promise to read this letter in three days and not before. I need your word that you won't open it in less than three days, or I will not take you to Caemlyn. You're known to keep promises."

 

Wouldn't that have been way too easy and still solved everything?

 

Unless Caemlyn had to be destroyed in order for light to win. So Verin had to make Mat promise it in a way that would keep the Band near Caemlyn, but also in a way that would prevent Mat from actually preventing the attack on Caemlyn. If that makes any sense. xD

 

There is that possibility.

[Mr Ares]

From the reader's perspective, knowing the contents of the letter, it was save Moiraine, or do as Verin instructed and save Moiraine. From Mat's, it was save Moiraine, or do as Verin instructs and maybe save Moiraine, maybe not. So it was never a choice of one or the other, not from our perpective or his. Therefore it cannot reasonably be considered fulfilment of the prophecy. No matter what choice he made with regards to Verin's letter, he cannot take rescuing Moiraine off the table.

That reasoning isn't legit.

 

From Mat's perspective he has the car he wants from door A. He has Door B, and by opening Door B he can get

1) a box of rotten vegetables that replaces the car

2) a sack of gold AND the car

3) an empty box and the car

 

Now Mat want's the car - why on earth would he open up door 2 even if her knew there was a better than even chance of keeping the car if its just the car he wants? (set aside Mat's luck as it has no effect on the actual choice since chance is not involved in that as it is here).

 

If you want the car, would you, as a matter of course, open door B with a risk of losing the car, just because you have a chance to wins something more? If so, thats not reasonable, rational or logical seeing as you have the prize you want already.

Add to that that Mat has a better than even chance of Verin's request being something that takes away 'the car' according to Mats experience with AS requests. That we, as readers, know the content does not change the choice for Mat, and thereby does not impact on the prophecy's relevance. Thats the same as saying the gameshow host who knows whats behind door b, knowing whats behind door b, means that the choice of teh contestant will be wrong unless the contestant randomly chooses the maximum profit choice. The 3 possibilities above are not equal, its not 3 doors with one of each, its one of them behind the only possible door to choose if you want to gamble.

 

Now that is also the only valid argument I have seen against Mat opening the letter - he should have opened it because his luck or ta'verenism would have made sure that it would be what the pattern needed him to do, and hes a gambler and has become ta've'responsible over the last couple of weeks/months (instory time) - but thats another discussion.

Except the possibilities Mat has are get the car now (maybe), get the car in a little while (definite), get the car after alonger while (maybe). At no point is the car off the table. The mystery of Verin's letter is one that has the possibility to delay him, maybe even until after the Last Battle, but unless he dies beforehand, or the letter says "do not rescue Moiraine, do not pass Go, do not collect £200", then rescuing her is still an option. Verin's instructions might have an effect on the timeline, but it is very unlikely they would be able to force him to cancel outright. Oh, and if they did order him not to rescue her, he could break his word, so it is always an option to try unless he dies first. So if saving Moiraine is never off the table, and if Verin's important instructions may or may not delay him, but not following the instructions will definitely delay him, then I fail to see how he is choosing between Verin and Moiraine. He has already chosen Moiraine, the choice is will he help Verin as well? It is not one or the other and never was.

[Nooska]

From the reader's perspective, knowing the contents of the letter, it was save Moiraine, or do as Verin instructed and save Moiraine. From Mat's, it was save Moiraine, or do as Verin instructs and maybe save Moiraine, maybe not. So it was never a choice of one or the other, not from our perpective or his. Therefore it cannot reasonably be considered fulfilment of the prophecy. No matter what choice he made with regards to Verin's letter, he cannot take rescuing Moiraine off the table.

That reasoning isn't legit.

 

From Mat's perspective he has the car he wants from door A. He has Door B, and by opening Door B he can get

1) a box of rotten vegetables that replaces the car

2) a sack of gold AND the car

3) an empty box and the car

 

Now Mat want's the car - why on earth would he open up door 2 even if her knew there was a better than even chance of keeping the car if its just the car he wants? (set aside Mat's luck as it has no effect on the actual choice since chance is not involved in that as it is here).

 

If you want the car, would you, as a matter of course, open door B with a risk of losing the car, just because you have a chance to wins something more? If so, thats not reasonable, rational or logical seeing as you have the prize you want already.

Add to that that Mat has a better than even chance of Verin's request being something that takes away 'the car' according to Mats experience with AS requests. That we, as readers, know the content does not change the choice for Mat, and thereby does not impact on the prophecy's relevance. Thats the same as saying the gameshow host who knows whats behind door b, knowing whats behind door b, means that the choice of teh contestant will be wrong unless the contestant randomly chooses the maximum profit choice. The 3 possibilities above are not equal, its not 3 doors with one of each, its one of them behind the only possible door to choose if you want to gamble.

 

Now that is also the only valid argument I have seen against Mat opening the letter - he should have opened it because his luck or ta'verenism would have made sure that it would be what the pattern needed him to do, and hes a gambler and has become ta've'responsible over the last couple of weeks/months (instory time) - but thats another discussion.

 

You're making the mistake of thinking that Mat's knowledge is in any way relevant here. This is a prophesy. It does not rely on the subject's (Mat's) knowledge, but on the patterns knowledge. Let's say that a prophesy says that Mat is having to choose between two doors; behind one is a nice car, behind the other is a pile of rotting vegetables. Later on it seems like Mat is forced to make just such a choice, where he knows which door the car is behind, and believes that the other door excludes the car. However, we, the reader, learn that the choice he actually had was between a sweet ride, and a sweet ride with a pile of gold in the trunk. Clearly the prophesy could not have referred to this situation, regardless of what Mat believes.

It is not prophecy, it is a prophetic dream. Yes, the difference seems semantic, but it is not. The prophetic dream is egwenes interpretation of teh dream images - thus we know for a fact that the 2 Aes Sedai are female (Egwene would not have seen 2 women if one was really a man, and would not have termed a man as an AS). Secondly it is important because the dream prophecies are not based on an objective statement - Mat did weigh Verin('s request) against Moiraine, and the fate of the world DID rest on his decision - as he, when making the decision, did not have the knowledge of what he was choosing between.

What Mat knows and what Mat believes - i.e. the entire basis for the choice - is very much relevant for having the fate of the world rest on the decision, because he is not omniscient there is no built in prevention of a choice that costs the time.

 

I will examine this more closely further down.

 

From the reader's perspective, knowing the contents of the letter, it was save Moiraine, or do as Verin instructed and save Moiraine. From Mat's, it was save Moiraine, or do as Verin instructs and maybe save Moiraine, maybe not. So it was never a choice of one or the other, not from our perpective or his. Therefore it cannot reasonably be considered fulfilment of the prophecy. No matter what choice he made with regards to Verin's letter, he cannot take rescuing Moiraine off the table.

That reasoning isn't legit.

 

From Mat's perspective he has the car he wants from door A. He has Door B, and by opening Door B he can get

1) a box of rotten vegetables that replaces the car

2) a sack of gold AND the car

3) an empty box and the car

 

Now Mat want's the car - why on earth would he open up door 2 even if her knew there was a better than even chance of keeping the car if its just the car he wants? (set aside Mat's luck as it has no effect on the actual choice since chance is not involved in that as it is here).

 

If you want the car, would you, as a matter of course, open door B with a risk of losing the car, just because you have a chance to wins something more? If so, thats not reasonable, rational or logical seeing as you have the prize you want already.

Add to that that Mat has a better than even chance of Verin's request being something that takes away 'the car' according to Mats experience with AS requests. That we, as readers, know the content does not change the choice for Mat, and thereby does not impact on the prophecy's relevance. Thats the same as saying the gameshow host who knows whats behind door b, knowing whats behind door b, means that the choice of teh contestant will be wrong unless the contestant randomly chooses the maximum profit choice. The 3 possibilities above are not equal, its not 3 doors with one of each, its one of them behind the only possible door to choose if you want to gamble.

 

Now that is also the only valid argument I have seen against Mat opening the letter - he should have opened it because his luck or ta'verenism would have made sure that it would be what the pattern needed him to do, and hes a gambler and has become ta've'responsible over the last couple of weeks/months (instory time) - but thats another discussion.

Except the possibilities Mat has are get the car now (maybe), get the car in a little while (definite), get the car after alonger while (maybe). At no point is the car off the table. The mystery of Verin's letter is one that has the possibility to delay him, maybe even until after the Last Battle, but unless he dies beforehand, or the letter says "do not rescue Moiraine, do not pass Go, do not collect £200", then rescuing her is still an option. Verin's instructions might have an effect on the timeline, but it is very unlikely they would be able to force him to cancel outright. Oh, and if they did order him not to rescue her, he could break his word, so it is always an option to try unless he dies first. So if saving Moiraine is never off the table, and if Verin's important instructions may or may not delay him, but not following the instructions will definitely delay him, then I fail to see how he is choosing between Verin and Moiraine. He has already chosen Moiraine, the choice is will he help Verin as well? It is not one or the other and never was.

For the first bolded part - you as the gameshow host (to stay with that analogy) know that tge car is never off the table, Mat doesn't, and so the choice is a real risk, not a theoretical one. For the second bolded part, it is very much one or the other.

 

Mat has chosen to rescue Moiraine, true. He has a choice of endagering his chance of doing so by agreeing to perform an unknown act or acts for an unknown length of time. That very much puts the rescue on teh table as a risk.

 

Timeline wise; If Mat opened the letter, he could very well have not been able to leave Caemlyn till after the trolloc attack. From the grasp we currently have on the timeline, that attack occurs during TG, on the eve of FoM, and therefor the day before Rand goes to SG - when would Mat have the time to go rescue Moiraine?

He had to stay in Caemlyn anyway to prepare and plan and get rid of the Gholam, so the statement that he is delayed by not opening the letter is not definitively true, while it prevents him from leaving it is not doing so at a time where he is merely waiting for the allotted time to expire.

 

Lastly, breaking his word is not an option. Like it or not Mat's characeter is clearly given as if bound by the oathrod when he gives his word - and actually more than bound, as he feels bound by the intent, not the letter (why he wouldn't let someone else open the letter). So if he opened the letter and it prohibited him from rescuing Moiraine, he would not go - and thereby doom Thom and Moiraine and whoever else went with Thom (per Moiraines letter). If breaking his word was an option on the table for him, Mat would either have opened the letter on day one, or not stayed a minute longer than absolutely necessary to restock and prepare - without agonizing over the letter.

 

In fact that Mat agonizes over the letter very clearly spells out that he is making a choice between Moiraine and Verin - it can't be any clearer in the text unless it was stated right out - and that the world rests on the choice he is making is also clear because we know from Min's viewings (which are the only prediciton, along with foretellings, that we know will come true as Min interprets them when she knows - dreams are not in this category and we have seen Eg make bad interpretations a few times) that unless Moi is there Rand will fail.

 

At the time Eg has her dream, Verin has yet to write the letter or deliver it to Mat (in fact she doesn't set out to deliver it to him it seems in TGS), so the basis of the choice is in flux at the time of the dream.

 

--

 

Turning to the choice again - those saying it isn't Moi and Verin have raised 2 alternate theories that I have noticed in this thread;

1) Teslyn and Joline

2) Rand and Egwene

 

I'll start by 2 - and I can really jsut repeat the beginning of this post by myself:

"The prophetic dream is egwenes interpretation of teh dream images - thus we know for a fact that the 2 Aes Sedai are female - Egwene would not have seen 2 women if one was really a man, and would not have termed a man as an AS."

 

As for 1, I have yet to see any substantive argument (by alternate scenarios or near misses in the books) that provides any semblance of "the world rests on the decision" - apart from very elaborate "what if" scenarios.

 

Now if this is more a critique of the writing of the resolution of this prophecy/dream, I will bow out and leave you to it (as I don't really have anything to complain about there, either way), but I have yet to see anything apart from flying pigs and tinkers in another other suggestions.

[Mr Ares]

From the reader's perspective, knowing the contents of the letter, it was save Moiraine, or do as Verin instructed and save Moiraine. From Mat's, it was save Moiraine, or do as Verin instructs and maybe save Moiraine, maybe not. So it was never a choice of one or the other, not from our perpective or his. Therefore it cannot reasonably be considered fulfilment of the prophecy. No matter what choice he made with regards to Verin's letter, he cannot take rescuing Moiraine off the table.

That reasoning isn't legit.

 

From Mat's perspective he has the car he wants from door A. He has Door B, and by opening Door B he can get

1) a box of rotten vegetables that replaces the car

2) a sack of gold AND the car

3) an empty box and the car

 

Now Mat want's the car - why on earth would he open up door 2 even if her knew there was a better than even chance of keeping the car if its just the car he wants? (set aside Mat's luck as it has no effect on the actual choice since chance is not involved in that as it is here).

 

If you want the car, would you, as a matter of course, open door B with a risk of losing the car, just because you have a chance to wins something more? If so, thats not reasonable, rational or logical seeing as you have the prize you want already.

Add to that that Mat has a better than even chance of Verin's request being something that takes away 'the car' according to Mats experience with AS requests. That we, as readers, know the content does not change the choice for Mat, and thereby does not impact on the prophecy's relevance. Thats the same as saying the gameshow host who knows whats behind door b, knowing whats behind door b, means that the choice of teh contestant will be wrong unless the contestant randomly chooses the maximum profit choice. The 3 possibilities above are not equal, its not 3 doors with one of each, its one of them behind the only possible door to choose if you want to gamble.

 

Now that is also the only valid argument I have seen against Mat opening the letter - he should have opened it because his luck or ta'verenism would have made sure that it would be what the pattern needed him to do, and hes a gambler and has become ta've'responsible over the last couple of weeks/months (instory time) - but thats another discussion.

 

You're making the mistake of thinking that Mat's knowledge is in any way relevant here. This is a prophesy. It does not rely on the subject's (Mat's) knowledge, but on the patterns knowledge. Let's say that a prophesy says that Mat is having to choose between two doors; behind one is a nice car, behind the other is a pile of rotting vegetables. Later on it seems like Mat is forced to make just such a choice, where he knows which door the car is behind, and believes that the other door excludes the car. However, we, the reader, learn that the choice he actually had was between a sweet ride, and a sweet ride with a pile of gold in the trunk. Clearly the prophesy could not have referred to this situation, regardless of what Mat believes.

It is not prophecy, it is a prophetic dream. Yes, the difference seems semantic, but it is not. The prophetic dream is egwenes interpretation of teh dream images - thus we know for a fact that the 2 Aes Sedai are female (Egwene would not have seen 2 women if one was really a man, and would not have termed a man as an AS). Secondly it is important because the dream prophecies are not based on an objective statement - Mat did weigh Verin('s request) against Moiraine, and the fate of the world DID rest on his decision - as he, when making the decision, did not have the knowledge of what he was choosing between.

What Mat knows and what Mat believes - i.e. the entire basis for the choice - is very much relevant for having the fate of the world rest on the decision, because he is not omniscient there is no built in prevention of a choice that costs the time.

A prophectic dream is still a prophecy. From Mat's perspective, the fate of the world did not depend on the decision. He might want to rescue Moiraine, but he doesn't know how important she is supposed to be. From the reader's perspective the fate of the world doesn't rest on the decision, because he can save Moiraine either way.

 

I will examine this more closely further down.

 

From the reader's perspective, knowing the contents of the letter, it was save Moiraine, or do as Verin instructed and save Moiraine. From Mat's, it was save Moiraine, or do as Verin instructs and maybe save Moiraine, maybe not. So it was never a choice of one or the other, not from our perpective or his. Therefore it cannot reasonably be considered fulfilment of the prophecy. No matter what choice he made with regards to Verin's letter, he cannot take rescuing Moiraine off the table.

That reasoning isn't legit.

 

From Mat's perspective he has the car he wants from door A. He has Door B, and by opening Door B he can get

1) a box of rotten vegetables that replaces the car

2) a sack of gold AND the car

3) an empty box and the car

 

Now Mat want's the car - why on earth would he open up door 2 even if her knew there was a better than even chance of keeping the car if its just the car he wants? (set aside Mat's luck as it has no effect on the actual choice since chance is not involved in that as it is here).

 

If you want the car, would you, as a matter of course, open door B with a risk of losing the car, just because you have a chance to wins something more? If so, thats not reasonable, rational or logical seeing as you have the prize you want already.

Add to that that Mat has a better than even chance of Verin's request being something that takes away 'the car' according to Mats experience with AS requests. That we, as readers, know the content does not change the choice for Mat, and thereby does not impact on the prophecy's relevance. Thats the same as saying the gameshow host who knows whats behind door b, knowing whats behind door b, means that the choice of teh contestant will be wrong unless the contestant randomly chooses the maximum profit choice. The 3 possibilities above are not equal, its not 3 doors with one of each, its one of them behind the only possible door to choose if you want to gamble.

 

Now that is also the only valid argument I have seen against Mat opening the letter - he should have opened it because his luck or ta'verenism would have made sure that it would be what the pattern needed him to do, and hes a gambler and has become ta've'responsible over the last couple of weeks/months (instory time) - but thats another discussion.

Except the possibilities Mat has are get the car now (maybe), get the car in a little while (definite), get the car after alonger while (maybe). At no point is the car off the table. The mystery of Verin's letter is one that has the possibility to delay him, maybe even until after the Last Battle, but unless he dies beforehand, or the letter says "do not rescue Moiraine, do not pass Go, do not collect £200", then rescuing her is still an option. Verin's instructions might have an effect on the timeline, but it is very unlikely they would be able to force him to cancel outright. Oh, and if they did order him not to rescue her, he could break his word, so it is always an option to try unless he dies first. So if saving Moiraine is never off the table, and if Verin's important instructions may or may not delay him, but not following the instructions will definitely delay him, then I fail to see how he is choosing between Verin and Moiraine. He has already chosen Moiraine, the choice is will he help Verin as well? It is not one or the other and never was.

For the first bolded part - you as the gameshow host (to stay with that analogy) know that tge car is never off the table, Mat doesn't, and so the choice is a real risk, not a theoretical one. For the second bolded part, it is very much one or the other.

Mat has no reason to believe it is off the table. Delayed, at worst, hastened perhaps. Now, whatever choice he makes will impact on the rescue of Moiraine timeline-wise. He has a minimum wait of ten days. Not opening gives him a fixed wait of thirty, not opening gives him ten plus an unknown number (from zero upwards). But a delay is not a cancellation. No matter what happens, Moiraine's rescue is always on the table. Thus Verin's letter impacts the timing, not the actuality. The choice of Verin or Moiraine is false. He has two choices. Help Moiraine, and help Verin. He says yes to the first and no to the second, he could have done it the other way around, or yes to both, or even no to both. All options open to him.

 

Timeline wise; If Mat opened the letter, he could very well have not been able to leave Caemlyn till after the trolloc attack. From the grasp we currently have on the timeline, that attack occurs during TG, on the eve of FoM, and therefor the day before Rand goes to SG - when would Mat have the time to go rescue Moiraine?

After TG. As far as he knows, it can wait, even if he would prefer to do it sooner rather than later.

 

Lastly, breaking his word is not an option.

Yes, it is. Mat might be exceedingly reluctant to break his word, but he is entirely capable of doing it. In fact, it is only during the course of the series that he has gained his reputation for always keeping his word - in the past, he has broken promises. He has that option, even if he doesn't wish to make use of it.

So if he opened the letter and it prohibited him from rescuing Moiraine

How could it? What scenario would mean rescue is cancelled, rather than merely delayed?

 

In fact that Mat agonizes over the letter very clearly spells out that he is making a choice between Moiraine and Verin - it can't be any clearer in the text unless it was stated right out - and that the world rests on the choice he is making is also clear because we know from Min's viewings (which are the only prediciton, along with foretellings, that we know will come true as Min interprets them when she knows - dreams are not in this category and we have seen Eg make bad interpretations a few times) that unless Moi is there Rand will fail.

It is a false choice. Mat does not know that it is Verin or Moirane, he has no reason to believe it cannot be both. We know it can be both. Mat may agonise over the letter, but it is unconvincing as this choice. From Mat's perspective, Moiraine is held captive, and he doesn't want her to remain that way longer than she has to. Verin's letter represents a potential delay - not a cancellation, and therefore not choice between one or the other. More importantly, it represents AS strings, something he has been earnestly trying to avoid. He refuses to open it for that reason above all others. Moiraine is an excuse not to open it, but he never had any intention of doing so.

[akira.taylor]

A prophectic dream is still a prophecy. From Mat's perspective, the fate of the world did not depend on the decision. He might want to rescue Moiraine, but he doesn't know how important she is supposed to be. From the reader's perspective the fate of the world doesn't rest on the decision, because he can save Moiraine either way.

Aren't they mearly possibilities? Not absolutes? I seem to recall Jordan saying that.

 

Lastly, breaking his word is not an option.

Yes, it is. Mat might be exceedingly reluctant to break his word, but he is entirely capable of doing it. In fact, it is only during the course of the series that he has gained his reputation for always keeping his word - in the past, he has broken promises. He has that option, even if he doesn't wish to make use of it.

Actually, Nynaeve aknowledges that if Mat gives his word, he'll keep it (when he tries to take Elayne to Caemlyn from Salidar). That doesn't seem to be based on what has happened to him in the series, but from before.

 

So if he opened the letter and it prohibited him from rescuing Moiraine

How could it? What scenario would mean rescue is cancelled, rather than merely delayed?

By Verin saying, "oh, by the way, DO NOT rescue Moiraine." What reason does Mat have to believe she wouldn't? Verin shouldn't (as far as Mat knows) know about Moiraine's rescue-ability, but that doesn't mean she doesn't (although that might be an effect of the reader knowing that Verin knows things she shouldn't).

 

In fact that Mat agonizes over the letter very clearly spells out that he is making a choice between Moiraine and Verin - it can't be any clearer in the text unless it was stated right out - and that the world rests on the choice he is making is also clear because we know from Min's viewings (which are the only prediciton, along with foretellings, that we know will come true as Min interprets them when she knows - dreams are not in this category and we have seen Eg make bad interpretations a few times) that unless Moi is there Rand will fail.

It is a false choice. Mat does not know that it is Verin or Moirane, he has no reason to believe it cannot be both. We know it can be both. Mat may agonise over the letter, but it is unconvincing as this choice. From Mat's perspective, Moiraine is held captive, and he doesn't want her to remain that way longer than she has to. Verin's letter represents a potential delay - not a cancellation, and therefore not choice between one or the other. More importantly, it represents AS strings, something he has been earnestly trying to avoid. He refuses to open it for that reason above all others. Moiraine is an excuse not to open it, but he never had any intention of doing so.

Mat doesn't know that it ISN'T Moiraine or Verin. Of course, he also doesn't know that Moiraine must be rescued before Tarmon Gaidon, or Rand loses, but I'm not entirely convinced that matters.

 

P.S. I hope I got the quotes right - there were a lot, so I trimmed out the ones that didn't seem relavent.

[Nooska]

A prophectic dream is still a prophecy. From Mat's perspective, the fate of the world did not depend on the decision. He might want to rescue Moiraine, but he doesn't know how important she is supposed to be. From the reader's perspective the fate of the world doesn't rest on the decision, because he can save Moiraine either way.

Aren't they mearly possibilities? Not absolutes? I seem to recall Jordan saying that.

I don't recall RJ saying that (though he may have) - my point is that in the frameworkf of the unicverse, we have knowledge of 2 absolute prediction types - foretellings, which are worded by the prophecy and the wording is therefore absolute - and Mins viewings, where we know that when she knows, it always happens that way, this is where the interpertation is absolute.

 

In regards to Dreaming, Ter'angreal predictions, listening to the wind and feeling the arthritic knee - none of these are absolute as presented to us within the frame of the universe. Egwenes has a dream. She has misinterpreted dreams before, and we see he interpretation of the consequences. Her dream could very well be founded on Mat choosing between M and V, and if he chooses V he won't have time to rescue M (because he is the person that does what is right) and not rescuing M would mean the defeat of the light - In this case the choice very much has the fate of th world hanging on it - but since its Egwenes interpretation of the consequences they are not absolute - it isn't that one choice means victory and the other death, it could just be that one choice would mean defeat - and since WE know that M has to be there for TG, and WE know that doing what V said in the letter - and what Mat would feel obligated to do etc could very well mean he posponed the ToG trip till it was too late (its only 1 month, tops, we have to work with) - leading to defeat. Regardless of delaying - because it DOES get take off the table if the delay objectively means that the rescue won't take place in time.

 

(Yes, I'll acknowledge that I now am arguing from the complete opposite point of my last post where it was a POV matters - and now its the topdown view of the passive gods we are in this world that defines it).

 

Fact; M has to be rescued before TG (source, Min - absolute truth)

Fact; Verins letter would have Mat doing something in addition to what we see him doing

Postulation; Mat could 'easily' postpone the ToG trip to make sure he prevented what V asked (source, Siuan Sanche and going into the fire / foreshadowing and character)

 

Conclusion; Opening the letter could very well have delayed Mat by enough time that he would not have had the time to rescue M before TG- additionally M's letter indicates that success is not guaranteed, and stopping to help V / prvenet he attack on Caemlyn could be an influencing factor on the succes or failure (thats unfounded speculation, admittedly).

Since not rescuing M, delaying to rescue M till after TG or being prevented from rescuing M constitutes an absolute chance of failure on Rand's part - the fate of the world very much rested on the choice.

 

 

Again, I will, secondarily, draw attention to the literary devices, that very clearly show mat weighing Verin's request against his obligation to Thom and rescuing Moiraine - it could not have been made clearer in the books without a narrator.

Again I pose a question;

Who else could it possibly refer to (I refer back to my last post on Teslyn/Joline and Egwene/Rand)

 

If its a gripe about the storytelling surrounding the dream / fulfilment, I'll bow out graciously and can even to some extent agree that it could have been written better - I think I jsut automatically excuse RJ's execution as, when he wrote that sequence, he surely must have been in poor health compared to earlier in the series, and that some executions have possibly suffered somewhat due to the effects on him.

[Mr Ares]

A prophectic dream is still a prophecy. From Mat's perspective, the fate of the world did not depend on the decision. He might want to rescue Moiraine, but he doesn't know how important she is supposed to be. From the reader's perspective the fate of the world doesn't rest on the decision, because he can save Moiraine either way.

Aren't they mearly possibilities? Not absolutes? I seem to recall Jordan saying that.

Yes, Dreams are only possibilities. However, I still see "prophetic dream" and "prophecy" to be an arbitrary distinction when the prophectic properties of the dream are acknowledged.

 

Lastly, breaking his word is not an option.

Yes, it is. Mat might be exceedingly reluctant to break his word, but he is entirely capable of doing it. In fact, it is only during the course of the series that he has gained his reputation for always keeping his word - in the past, he has broken promises. He has that option, even if he doesn't wish to make use of it.

Actually, Nynaeve aknowledges that if Mat gives his word, he'll keep it (when he tries to take Elayne to Caemlyn from Salidar). That doesn't seem to be based on what has happened to him in the series, but from before.

'"You would think I didn't keep my promises." The looks he got from Nynaeve and Egwene reminded him of a few he had not kept.' TDR 28. Mat POV.

 

So if he opened the letter and it prohibited him from rescuing Moiraine

How could it? What scenario would mean rescue is cancelled, rather than merely delayed?

By Verin saying, "oh, by the way, DO NOT rescue Moiraine." What reason does Mat have to believe she wouldn't? Verin shouldn't (as far as Mat knows) know about Moiraine's rescue-ability, but that doesn't mean she doesn't (although that might be an effect of the reader knowing that Verin knows things she shouldn't).

OK, fair enough, she could say "don't rescue Moiraine." On the other hand, she intimated the details of the letter were important, and therefore even if Mat thought she did know, and would try to prevent Mat rescuing her, he would also think she must have a good reason (good to her, if not to him) for not allowing the rescue. Plus, as far as he has any reason to believe, everyone other than himself, Thom and Noal thinks she's dead. That's a very good reason to think Verin wouldn't stop him trying to rescue her.

 

In fact that Mat agonizes over the letter very clearly spells out that he is making a choice between Moiraine and Verin - it can't be any clearer in the text unless it was stated right out - and that the world rests on the choice he is making is also clear because we know from Min's viewings (which are the only prediciton, along with foretellings, that we know will come true as Min interprets them when she knows - dreams are not in this category and we have seen Eg make bad interpretations a few times) that unless Moi is there Rand will fail.

It is a false choice. Mat does not know that it is Verin or Moirane, he has no reason to believe it cannot be both. We know it can be both. Mat may agonise over the letter, but it is unconvincing as this choice. From Mat's perspective, Moiraine is held captive, and he doesn't want her to remain that way longer than she has to. Verin's letter represents a potential delay - not a cancellation, and therefore not choice between one or the other. More importantly, it represents AS strings, something he has been earnestly trying to avoid. He refuses to open it for that reason above all others. Moiraine is an excuse not to open it, but he never had any intention of doing so.

Mat doesn't know that it ISN'T Moiraine or Verin. Of course, he also doesn't know that Moiraine must be rescued before Tarmon Gaidon, or Rand loses, but I'm not entirely convinced that matters.

Given that Verin's instructions might well delay him, but are unlikely to outright cancel the mission, the chances are that this is not a one or the other situation. That's looking at it from Mat's perspective. From ours, we know it isn't one or the other.

 

P.S. I hope I got the quotes right - there were a lot, so I trimmed out the ones that didn't seem relavent.

Quite right. Too many quotes makes the thing difficult to follow.

 

A prophectic dream is still a prophecy. From Mat's perspective, the fate of the world did not depend on the decision. He might want to rescue Moiraine, but he doesn't know how important she is supposed to be. From the reader's perspective the fate of the world doesn't rest on the decision, because he can save Moiraine either way.

Aren't they mearly possibilities? Not absolutes? I seem to recall Jordan saying that.

I don't recall RJ saying that (though he may have) - my point is that in the framework of the unicverse, we have knowledge of 2 absolute prediction types - foretellings, which are worded by the prophecy and the wording is therefore absolute - and Mins viewings, where we know that when she knows, it always happens that way, this is where the interpertation is absolute.

 

In regards to Dreaming, Ter'angreal predictions, listening to the wind and feeling the arthritic knee - none of these are absolute as presented to us within the frame of the universe. Egwenes has a dream. She has misinterpreted dreams before, and we see he interpretation of the consequences.

Hardly relevant. Egwene can misinterpret Dreams, but we are talking of the Dream itself, not her interpretation. That "something vast; the world, perhaps" rests on the decision is part of the Dream.

 

(Yes, I'll acknowledge that I now am arguing from the complete opposite point of my last post where it was a POV matters - and now its the topdown view of the passive gods we are in this world that defines it).

And yet it doesn't matter. Either way, this doesn't work without significant twisting to make it fit what we saw. From our POV, we know that the letter could have hastened Mat's journey, as he would be done within one day of opening it. Therefore, up to twenty days before he actually left.

 

Fact; M has to be rescued before TG (source, Min - absolute truth)

Fact; Verins letter would have Mat doing something in addition to what we see him doing

Fact; not opening the letter imposed an additional twenty days of waiting. He couldn't find an afternoon to give a lteer to Elayne? That's a couple of hours work, maybe. Is his life really so packed? No.

 

Again, I will, secondarily, draw attention to the literary devices, that very clearly show mat weighing Verin's request against his obligation to Thom and rescuing Moiraine - it could not have been made clearer in the books without a narrator.

Again, it was a false choice, it was never one or the other. If Mat thinks it was, he is lying to himself (something he has a history of).

Who else could it possibly refer to (I refer back to my last post on Teslyn/Joline and Egwene/Rand)

We don't know what is to come. Maybe Egwene and Moiraine will have some sort of showdown in the last book, and Mat must choose between them. There could be ny number of hypothetical solutions. But really, this doesn't fit. If this was meant to be the fulfillment, RJ, BS and Harriet all dropped the ball. What was prophesied and what happened do not match up. I will give them the benefit of the doubt - this was not that prophecy.

[Guest Wheel of Mitchie]

I believe this relates to Matrim having to make the final decision on how women who can channel get to lead their lives, on one side of the scale Matrim allows Egwene/white tower to train and guide the AES SEDAI as they have always done with some improvements of his own added, or he decides to allow Tuon to collar all channelers, this will all become clear once Matrim has entered the white tower to reclaim the Horn, once he has seen Bode (Maybe!!!) collared he will take his rightful place as commander of the ever victorious army and ambassador of the white tower and all in the tower will follow his word, thanks to some sneakiness on Jolines behalf (we will defiantly see her again in Matrim’s eyes) Tuon will try to calm Matrim down to follow the path created by her for him but this will fall on death ears (of course) making HER, MATRIM and the SEANCHAN EMPIRE look weak. This will force the hand of her enemies and allies in forcing her out resulting in the final demise of the SEACHEN Empire especially once the last battle is completed.

 

My first post why do I feel nervous :) (apologies for the spelling and general mistakes)

[Nooska]

Who else could it possibly refer to (I refer back to my last post on Teslyn/Joline and Egwene/Rand)

We don't know what is to come. Maybe Egwene and Moiraine will have some sort of showdown in the last book, and Mat must choose between them. There could be ny number of hypothetical solutions. But really, this doesn't fit. If this was meant to be the fulfillment, RJ, BS and Harriet all dropped the ball. What was prophesied and what happened do not match up. I will give them the benefit of the doubt - this was not that prophecy.

I'll concede that point, and I assume that we can agree on it either being M/V (and then not being the best written fulfilment) or one yet to come.

[randsc]

I believe this relates to Matrim having to make the final decision on how women who can channel get to lead their lives, on one side of the scale Matrim allows Egwene/white tower to train and guide the AES SEDAI as they have always done with some improvements of his own added, or he decides to allow Tuon to collar all channelers, this will all become clear once Matrim has entered the white tower to reclaim the Horn, once he has seen Bode (Maybe!!!) collared he will take his rightful place as commander of the ever victorious army and ambassador of the white tower and all in the tower will follow his word, thanks to some sneakiness on Jolines behalf (we will defiantly see her again in Matrim’s eyes) Tuon will try to calm Matrim down to follow the path created by her for him but this will fall on death ears (of course) making HER, MATRIM and the SEANCHAN EMPIRE look weak. This will force the hand of her enemies and allies in forcing her out resulting in the final demise of the SEACHEN Empire especially once the last battle is completed.

 

My first post why do I feel nervous :) (apologies for the spelling and general mistakes)

 

 

I don't really think that this can be it. The Dream was specifically showed Mat as choosing between two Aes Sedai, not just two women (or people) who can channel. Which Aes Sedai is advocating that the Seanchan continue to leash all female channelers?

[Mandro]

You can't blame verin. She was wrapped up in taverin, she was a slave to matt's will, and matt to rands, tangled up with perrins. Though it was kinda stupid of her to assume as much as she did, but then again she's AS.

 

BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH THE SERIES!!! ALL OF THE WOMEN ARE ARROGANT HATEFUL AND THINK MEN ARE Carrying around an extra chromosome.

[Mandro]

IT'S OBVIOUS that the two AS are verrin and Moiraine.

 

Matt (though the word "weighing" isn't used, mat literally looks at the letter of verins before he says "We leave tomorrow."

 

It's not blatant, but it is quite obvious.

[randsc]

I don't think it is by any means obvious. Moiraine/Verin is a defensible choice, but there are good arguments against it.

[Mandro]

fiction writers are somewhat devious but not always original. I mean, who didn't read the first book of TSOIAF (It was originally TSOFAI) and as Ned tried to shout out the one truth he never told NOT know about the nature of Jon's birth?

 

but Jordan DID change stories, though I hear he was a lot more adamant after he got the 4 book deal after TDR (I think it was after TDR) that he focused on a cohesive plot for his saga.

 

Tell you the truth, a few years ago, even with all of the promises of outlines and pre-written chapters and stuff? Then RJ died, and I didn't believe he left enough behind, but either BS is a great salesman, or Jordan really did give him a HUGE batch of info to finish the books as intended.