Why Amico Nagoyin did not tie off the shield to cut off the girls from power instead of actually maintaining the shield?

[Khosann]

Why Amico Nagoyin did not tie off the shield to cut off the girls from power instead of actually maintaining the shield? Was she afraid that the shields would unravel in time or was she afraid that the girls would be able to unravel them eventually?

 

Why Nynaeve and others could not break through the shield? Were they not powerful enough? Maybe they did not know that they could do that?

 

How Amico can maintain the shield on 3 people all by herself?

[Blackhoof]

maybe RJ didnt have the whole shield thing sorted out yet and he wanted a way for the girls to escape?

 

this is probably just one of those 'suspend disbelief and accept RJ's inaccuracies' moments.

[Taura-Tierno]

Tying off a shield makes it more vulnerable. Given time, any knot can be unravelled, and she wouldn't even be aware of it. And you need to be much stronger to break through a shield on someone. Elayne and Egwene weren't strong enough, most likely. Nynaeve should've been, though, I think, but she couldn't channel reliably, so maybe she couldn't push against the barrier enough. And maybe none of them had the experience to actually know how to apply pressure and break the shield.

 

It's also possible that Amico was skilled at shielding, kind of like Berowin, and could therefore hold someone much stronger. She wouldn't even need to be as skilled as Berowin to hold the girls.

[David Selig]

I've wondered about that scene myself, it's strange that:

 

1)only one Aes Sedai, not noted for her strength in the Power, could maintain the shields on 3 extremely strong ones. The other BA were really careless to leave the prisoners so unguarded, given that they know the strength in the Power of the prisoners. Where were the others anyway that night? They weren't with Be'lal.

 

2)even after Amico was stilled, the Supergirls still couldn't break their shields.

 

As for why weren't the shields tied off, that's easy - it's easier to break a tied off shield than one which is actively maintained by a channeller.

[dovien]

I don't remember the details of the scene but wasn't Amico linked to another jailor at the time?

[Taura-Tierno]

I don't have the books here, so I can't check it, but didn't the stilling of Amico work differently than usual because she was stilled in tel'aran'rhiod? She was still holding the Power in the real world, so the stilling didn't take effect there until Nynaeve knocked her out completely so that she lost contact with saidar.

[Luckers]

Firstly, on how Amico could maintain the shield--RJ stated that some people have a Talent for shielding. We encounter another one such amongst the kin. Also same gender shielding works differently to cross gender shielding--long story short same gender shielding requires alot less strength.

 

As for why she maintained the shield rather than tying it off. Custom. It's true knotted shields can be unravelled but the Aes Sedai don't remember this. It's likely they did at one stage to have that custom in place, but they do not currently know for sure.

 

Unless, of course, Be'lal told them. That being said we do know for a fact that maintaining a shield instead of knotting it off is a custom--it gets spoken of several times.

[dovien]

Also same gender shielding works differently to cross gender shielding--long story short same gender shielding requires alot less strength.

So far as I remember, shielding is primarily a matter of raw strength. Do you have a reference handy?

[Taura-Tierno]

I asked why Elayne thought even a Forsaken couldn't break the shield Adeleas and Vandene were holding on Ispan, expecting the answer that Elayne is clue-impaired. The correct answer is that holding a shield on someone depends not only on relative strength and fatigue, but also on whether the shield is held by channelers of the same sex as the victim. Thus two women (Adeleas and Vandene on Ispan, or Ispan and Falion on Nynaeve in A Crown of Swords) can hold another woman, but three women just get severed if they try to shield Rand. As a curiosity, it is also possible for multiple people to hold a shield without linking, but this is less strong and less precise, producing basically a layered shield.

 

- The Path of Daggers book tour

 

I've taken the quote from http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/02/weaves-and-talents.html .

[Luckers]

Taura-Tierno provided the quote I was thinking of.

[dovien]

Ah, thanks. It's still seems weird though. I never got the impression from the books that gender was anywhere near as important as strength so far as shielding was concerned. I'm reminded of the scene in the Stone of Tear where Rand shields Egwene and Elayne effortlessly. If being of a different gender makes it harder to maintain a shield then why was he able to contain them both at the same time as weaving a dozen other things?

[Adamdidit]

Because at that point, Egwene and Elayne knew next to nothing whatsoever and coupled that with almost no practical experience. Up to then, all three girls had mostly relied on raw strength and teamwork to get through things. Basically Elayne/Egwene is not equal or anywhere near equal to Adeleas/Vandene, while Rand (although still raw himself) is actually more powerful than even the majority of Forsaken

 

in answer to the original questions..the BA sister were arrogant, stupid and not careful as they didn't respect the level of threat the three girls represented

[dovien]

They'd actually had some training in the White Tower and some experience in the real world but neither training nor experience are mentioned in the quote above.

[yoniy0]

Also, Egwene has already been forced. That means that she'd be much stronger than your average Accepted. I daresay Amico wouldn't have been able to shield her if she'd been holding the Source. That doesn't mean she can't hold a shield on her, but coupled with Nynaeve... Yes, it's not completely clear that it should've worked.

I think the best thing to do here is heed Blackhoof.

[dovien]

I think the best thing to do here is heed Blackhoof.

Yeah, that's probably the case.

[Luckers]

yeah sometimes with the early books its just better to nod and smile.

[Taura-Tierno]

Also, Egwene has already been forced. That means that she'd be much stronger than your average Accepted. I daresay Amico wouldn't have been able to shield her if she'd been holding the Source. That doesn't mean she can't hold a shield on her, but coupled with Nynaeve... Yes, it's not completely clear that it should've worked.

I think the best thing to do here is heed Blackhoof.

 

However, is it ever mentioned than shielding 2 people requires more strength than shielding 1? Aside from the requirement that you must be strong enough to make 2 shields. We've already seen that strength in the OP does not have to be a major factor in holding someone.

[dovien]

With so many exclaiming over their strength - everyone said she and Elayne would be among the strongest Aes Sedai, if not the strongest, in a thousand years or more - she had assumed they were as strong as he. Near to it, at least. She had just been rudely disabused. Perhaps Nynaeve could come close, if she was angry enough, but Egwene knew she herself could never have done what he just had, split her flows that many ways, worked that many things at once. Working two flows at once was far more than twice as hard as working one of the same magnitude, and working three much more than twice again working two. He had to have been weaving a dozen. He did not even look tired, yet exertion with the Power took energy. She very much feared he could handle her and Elayne both like kittens. Kittens he might decide to drown, if he went mad.

You might be thinking of this passage.

[yoniy0]

However, is it ever mentioned than shielding 2 people requires more strength than shielding 1? Aside from the requirement that you must be strong enough to make 2 shields. We've already seen that strength in the OP does not have to be a major factor in holding someone.

Nynaeve's commented on how holding Logain with Air made her shield on him that much weaker. And it's not like he can apply pressure back against her Air weaves, unlike a second shield.

[Taura-Tierno]

DovienGleeman: Yeah, that :)

 

yoniy0: Ah, that's very true. I still don't think Amico being able to hold them was a mistake, though. Maybe she was just good at shielding, and that's the reason they put her there.

[David Selig]

Ah, thanks. It's still seems weird though. I never got the impression from the books that gender was anywhere near as important as strength so far as shielding was concerned. I'm reminded of the scene in the Stone of Tear where Rand shields Egwene and Elayne effortlessly. If being of a different gender makes it harder to maintain a shield then why was he able to contain them both at the same time as weaving a dozen other things?

Egwene and Elayne weren't holding the Source when they got shielded. I am pretty sure Rand wouldn't have been able to shield both of them at once

if they had been holding it.

 

As for maintaining the shields, he only kept the shields on for a about a minute, maybe less, and the girls were so shocked they didn't try much to break the shields before he released them.

[Luckers]

However, is it ever mentioned than shielding 2 people requires more strength than shielding 1? Aside from the requirement that you must be strong enough to make 2 shields. We've already seen that strength in the OP does not have to be a major factor in holding someone.

Nynaeve's commented on how holding Logain with Air made her shield on him that much weaker. And it's not like he can apply pressure back against her Air weaves, unlike a second shield.

 

Though that may again have to do with cross-gender shieldings. Notice this...

 

Logain jerked up onto his knees, snarling, and she embraced saidar and had him wrapped securely in flows of Air in the space of a heartbeat. The sisters shielding him had all their strength directed into that— another custom; you must use every bit of your strength to shield a man

[LoC; 52, Weaves of the Power]

 

Strange custom. I wonder if, like having woman hold the shield, its a custom lingering from a forgotten reason. Like dividing your flows weakens a shield on a man in some way. Note in particular that Egwene cites that this custom is for shielding a man, and that we have seen Aes Sedai divide their flows in the past when shielding a woman--Liandrin and Joiya do so in tDR, Egwene does with the Windfinders in LoC, Verin does so in the tPoD prologue, Katerine does with egwene, and not Barasine, Melare or Silviana bat an eyelash. I'm sure there are others besides.

[dovien]

Egwene and Elayne weren't holding the Source when they got shielded. I am pretty sure Rand wouldn't have been able to shield both of them at once if they had been holding it.

As for maintaining the shields, he only kept the shields on for a about a minute, maybe less, and the girls were so shocked they didn't try much to break the shields before he released them.

Sure but this argument isn't about the act of shielding, it's about holding a shield. Rand shields them both and continues weaving a dozen or so other things at the same time. If it's really that much harder to hold a shield on someone of the opposite gender then any attempt at all by either girl to break free should have succeeded easily.

 

Note in particular that Egwene cites that this custom is for shielding a man, and that we have seen Aes Sedai divide their flows in the past when shielding a woman--Liandrin and Joiya do so in tDR, Egwene does with the Windfinders in LoC, Verin does so in the tPoD prologue, Katerine does with egwene, and not Barasine, Melare or Silviana bat an eyelash.

That's a good point, it lends weight to the position that shielding is more difficult across genders.

[David Selig]

But that's the point - Egwene didn't attempt to break the shield at all after Rand started weaving all the complicated weaves. She tried to embrace saidar at first when Rand held them with Air, sensed that she was shielded and was so shocked she didn't do anything more than watch what Rand was doing - he started the other complicated weaves after that. It all happened really fast, and the girls were so shocked I doubt Elayne attempted to break her shield either.

[Hadilmir]

I could be wrong, but I think you guys are forgetting several things:

 

1. Nynaeve likely couldn't even apply pressure to her shield, it's hard to be angry when you're also somewhat terrified.

2. Elayne was pretty weak at the time, this wasn't long after her accepted test.

3. Egwene had been forced, but not to her full potential, she was strong, but not overwhelmingly so.

4. None of the supergirls even knew how to shield someone, let alone break through a shield.

5. You must be much stronger to break a same-gender shield.

 

We know Elayne and Egwene didn't even bother trying to break the shield and Nynaeve said several times that she tried, but with the block nothing is certain. Had all three tried at once it might've worked, but they didn't.