Russian Devil Hotel - Game Thread (ON)

aemonkristen · January 8, 2011

Actually, Redust, lynching me would only solve one equation as the other two are suppositions of my alignment based on the alignment of others.

Verbal32 · January 8, 2011

42) And this one from Verbal (VERBAL: why were you buying into an "Aemon or Mynd" mentality here?)

Because without a consolidation of votes, there is no real pressure. Without real pressure, there is no information gained. Besides, I'll admit I was also looking forward to the night phase to see if I had a ghost role. Those 2 were ok lynches from a townie viewpoint, so I went along with it.

2. You and Verbal claim to have viewed the exact same player with the exact same result. I don't believe in coincedence like that.

Not a bad point, actually. I was surprised.

My reason: Hybrid made some good posts, and I was actually getting a good town vibe from him. I've played a crapton of games with Hybrid, and for me, confirming him as town would have helped me work with him.

Aust · January 8, 2011

Kivam, finish your read through of day one and then let me know if you're still quite concerned with me. I'll answer any questions you might have.

I actually was quite suspicious of you on day one, so I gave Song a wide-open opportunity and she didn't take it, which I called her on. And with Alana, I got a town vibe from her like Lily did, and felt the dialogue around her was getting us no where. I didn't support a lynch on Mynd on day one, and so I didn't vote for him. When day two opened with Aemon's finder results on Song that seemed pretty clear cut as I believed Aemon's claim. That brings us to day three, and the person still at the top of my list of suspects is Krak, with Redust also looking more suspect with each post.

As others have mentioned I'm also very worried about Mynd's claim on you and Verbal, supposedly coming from Song - why would Mynd believe something from a mafia? And why would he expect us to believe it too? This troubles me because I know Mynd is an advanced player, and still he has remained silent on the matter. It's confusing because he was confirmed innocent at the beginning of night two - could he have been recruited in the night while he was dead?

Myndrunner · January 8, 2011

More thoughts on Song's communication with me in the ghost world....

I am well aware of the WIFOM with Kivam and Verbal and of course I considered that she was playing me; however, the nature of her communication really sounded like she thought we were going to win together. Let's say for arguments sake that she was playing me; then wouldn't it stand to reason that she might mention at least one of her mafia buddies in hopes that I would dismiss her claim?

She also did mention Krak being innocent, but making himself look scummy and that he might be a good person to get lynched.

I think we should continue to consider Kivam or Verbal. I am fine with lynching either one.

Myndrunner · January 8, 2011

42) And this one from Verbal (VERBAL: why were you buying into an "Aemon or Mynd" mentality here?)

Because without a consolidation of votes, there is no real pressure. Without real pressure, there is no information gained. Besides, I'll admit I was also looking forward to the night phase to see if I had a ghost role. Those 2 were ok lynches from a townie viewpoint, so I went along with it.

This is where I call complete BS! You didn't just go along with the lynch on me, you were PUSHING for it! SO much so that you purposely withheld your opinion on other players just so you could see me (an innocent) lynched. You refused to share any information with the town and then when I kept pressing you on it (to this moment in fact) you still have yet to reveal anything.

You pushed the lynch on me and then pretended that you had other people in mynd as well, but when called out on revealing it, you kept silent. Either you are a dangerous townie who got an innocent player lynched by withholding your thoughts, or you are scum and wanted to see a dangerous player gone.

I think Verbal might be the better of the two lynches. unvote

I don't need messages from beyond the grave to see this...

Verbal is scum!

Sir Redust · January 8, 2011

Actually, Redust, lynching me would only solve one equation as the other two are suppositions of my alignment based on the alignment of others.

The same could be said about any of the players listed. So, I'm not seeing the point in it.

Sir Redust · January 8, 2011

with Redust also looking more suspect with each post.

Haha. What did I do wrong this time?

Aust · January 8, 2011

More thoughts on Song's communication with me in the ghost world....

I am well aware of the WIFOM with Kivam and Verbal and of course I considered that she was playing me; however, the nature of her communication really sounded like she thought we were going to win together. Let's say for arguments sake that she was playing me; then wouldn't it stand to reason that she might mention at least one of her mafia buddies in hopes that I would dismiss her claim?

She also did mention Krak being innocent, but making himself look scummy and that he might be a good person to get lynched.

I think we should continue to consider Kivam or Verbal. I am fine with lynching either one.

You still haven't said exactly what she said to you.

That bit about Krak is pretty interesting considering he wasn't taking any heat back on day one - how did that one come up? And why did Song think that you were going to win together?

DPR · January 8, 2011

AN ACTION HAS BEEN TRIGGERED.

Krakalakachkn · January 8, 2011

Wait, where did Song say I was innocent?

Aust · January 8, 2011

Wait, where did Song say I was innocent?

Apparently, while they were having tea together in the netherworld.

Kivam · January 9, 2011

1) Wombat is scum ----> Aemon likely town

2) Aemon is scum -----> Wombat likely town, Toy likely scum

3) Toy is scum ------> Redust likely scum, Aemon suspicious

By deduction, wouldn't aemon be the safest bet then? He's the only one on all three lists, and might paint the clearest picture if you're right.

Maybe - but as Aemon pointed out, you're looking at the wrong side of the equations, and he's also got some serious townie-cred from outing scum. In any event, I'm not voting anyone until I complete my readthrough. And since I'm posting during the kids' dinner, and I need to give them a bath, after, and my wife and I are in the middle of a conversation about our impending divorce and its ramifications - that'll be a while, and may not be tonight.

I love how me and Toy are likely scum together for...what, exactly?

Toy had what looks to me like a distancing vote on you (put it on right away, maintained it for a good long time)

And yet you unvote me. Are you trying to lynch scum, or are you trying to confuse under the guise of being helpful? I'm more and more certain of Mynds info by the second.

Then either you're lying, or not very good at this game (no offense - as a relatively new player, most people aren't, and if that's true for you, you'll get much better at it with time and experience). I unvoted because I'm still reading through, and Krak has replaced you as my top suspect, for now - so I'll stay voteless until I'm done with the readthrough and I can place a vote considering all information.

1. You defended Lily, exceedingly. Lily was innocent, but how would any of us really know that?

Now that she's dead, it can be answered: her "I expected someone to have that role" when Aemon revealed 1 time finder. That said 2 things to me: 1) She had a one-shot role; and 2) that one-shot role was doctor: only a 1-shot doc would expect a one-shot finder. Doc and finder are the two most critical town roles, and if one is in the game as a 1 shot, then the other likely is, too. In fact, once I got my PM, I expected a one-shot doc to be in the game. Any other one-shot (vig, roleblock, track, etc.) wouldn't trigger an expectation that "one-shot finder" and "one-shot doc" were in the game. And since "one-shot doc" isn't a role that scum would get - that made Lily innocent.

2. You and Verbal claim to have viewed the exact same player with the exact same result. I don't believe in coincedence like that.

Not a coincidence, since it turns out we both had the same reason (if he's telling the truth). I viewed Hybrid because he's a player it would really help me to know is town; he's an analyst, like me, and has very good instincts. If I know he's town, I can pay more attention to them, rather than keeping in the back of my mind that his analysis might be slanted by scum.

3. You're a shoe in for me or Krak, it seems, yet even with your own logic connecting me and Toy as likely scummates, you unvote me.

Uh . . . see above.

4. Song did vote you and as you say yourself, could have been a distancing move. I see you throwing it out there as a kind of reverse pshychological move. You gave us this one, why would scum do it?

If you see my posts with Song as a scum teammate move . . . I don't know what to tell you. It could be a gambit, of course (stupid freaking name, grumble grumble), but it clearly wasn't a "distancing" vote - I was pushing for her actual lynch.

Myndrunner · January 9, 2011

Wait, where did Song say I was innocent?

Apparently, while they were having tea together in the netherworld.

I cannot quote our PMs but in our first discussion, she remarked how Krak's hammer vote on me seemed to make him look guilty and that we could use that to our advantage and push for a lynch on him. Then, random blah blah blah thoughts on the game and the nature of our status in the netherworld. I didn't think much of her comment on Krak at the time other than it was interesting that she seemed to think we were on the same team.

Then we had a bit of back n forth on the whole tentacle thing. In her second to last PM, she said for me not to worry and that Kivam and Verbal would most likely avenge us if we both went down.

So, there you go....either she was really mistaken and accidentally gave up Kivam and Verbal, or she knew what she was doing and WIFOM'd me with the comment about Kivam and Verbal....and perhaps Krak as well.

Kivam · January 9, 2011

58) Hybrid's summary post - votes Aemon for information

59) Lily says I'm pinging "mildly" and she'll vote Aemon, but not yet

60) Wombat likes Hybrid's post - is willing to vote Aemon or Alanna. Notably does not mention Song as a possibility

Going to stop here, since it's easier to keep track of the next number if each prior post ends in a multiple of 10

Kivam · January 9, 2011

61) I agree with Hybrid, vote Aemon

62) Verbal agrees with Hybrid that Lily seemed to be deflecting from Aemon (add to deductions - if Verbal is scum-----> Aemon likely town)

63) I warn against ninja hammers

64) Hybrid responds to Lily's self defense (note - we now know they are both town)

aemonkristen · January 9, 2011

1) Wombat is scum ----> Aemon likely town

2) Aemon is scum -----> Wombat likely town, Toy likely scum

3) Toy is scum ------> Redust likely scum, Aemon suspicious

By deduction, wouldn't aemon be the safest bet then? He's the only one on all three lists, and might paint the clearest picture if you're right.

This, Redust. You claimed that I would give the most Info on a lynch and when I confront you with how that is patently false you come out with this?

Actually, Redust, lynching me would only solve one equation as the other two are suppositions of my alignment based on the alignment of others.

The same could be said about any of the players listed. So, I'm not seeing the point in it.

You do not see the point in my pointing out the flaws in your logic?

Aust · January 9, 2011

Wait, where did Song say I was innocent?

Apparently, while they were having tea together in the netherworld.

I cannot quote our PMs but in our first discussion, she remarked how Krak's hammer vote on me seemed to make him look guilty and that we could use that to our advantage and push for a lynch on him. Then, random blah blah blah thoughts on the game and the nature of our status in the netherworld. I didn't think much of her comment on Krak at the time other than it was interesting that she seemed to think we were on the same team.

Then we had a bit of back n forth on the whole tentacle thing. In her second to last PM, she said for me not to worry and that Kivam and Verbal would most likely avenge us if we both went down.

So, there you go....either she was really mistaken and accidentally gave up Kivam and Verbal, or she knew what she was doing and WIFOM'd me with the comment about Kivam and Verbal....and perhaps Krak as well.

Why did she believe you were both on the same team? It was announced in thread that you were innocent when you were lynched, and yet somehow she believed that you were both on the same team? Why? Didn't you question that? Were you confused about which team you'd be on? What you need to help us do Mynd is decide whether Song was playing you, or if she believed you were both on the same team, and I have to say having to pry the details out of you is frustrating.

Kivam · January 9, 2011

65) Good post from Krak - calls Song his scummiest, points to Alanna as well.

66) Aemon's reveal

67) Dralid (likely town) votes for one of Aemon's "suspects"

68) Lily "announces" her one-shot doc role :biggrin:

69) Hybrid points out the ridiculousness of Dralid's post

70) Good post from Toy - even if he did miss Lily's signal. Votes Lily, questions Song.

Note - at this point the pressure had moved off Song a bit, and people were looking at Aemon or Mynd. Krak and Toy drop a bit on my radar for bringing her back into the discussion

Myndrunner · January 9, 2011

Wait, where did Song say I was innocent?

Apparently, while they were having tea together in the netherworld.

I cannot quote our PMs but in our first discussion, she remarked how Krak's hammer vote on me seemed to make him look guilty and that we could use that to our advantage and push for a lynch on him. Then, random blah blah blah thoughts on the game and the nature of our status in the netherworld. I didn't think much of her comment on Krak at the time other than it was interesting that she seemed to think we were on the same team.

Then we had a bit of back n forth on the whole tentacle thing. In her second to last PM, she said for me not to worry and that Kivam and Verbal would most likely avenge us if we both went down.

So, there you go....either she was really mistaken and accidentally gave up Kivam and Verbal, or she knew what she was doing and WIFOM'd me with the comment about Kivam and Verbal....and perhaps Krak as well.

Why did she believe you were both on the same team? It was announced in thread that you were innocent when you were lynched, and yet somehow she believed that you were both on the same team? Why? Didn't you question that? Were you confused about which team you'd be on? What you need to help us do Mynd is decide whether Song was playing you, or if she believed you were both on the same team, and I have to say having to pry the details out of you is frustrating.

I imagine she received a similar PM to what I received when I "died" stating that we could communicate off thread with other ghosts. In her communications, she kept talking about how we could win as if we were on the same team with the same win condition. Of course, I questioned that but I wasn't about to spoil it. Would you have said "OH wait, you should probably stop talking now because we are not on the same team, remember?" or would you have kept her talking like I did? I hope the latter.

I knew I was innocent, to the point that I even confirmed this with the great Mod.

I'm giving you all the details as much as I can without being modkilled. Its up to you to decide if anything she told me has merit. I'm not gonna try and lead us anywhere. Between the two she named on her team, Verbal is seeming to be the much more likely to be scum while Kivam is likely a name she dropped to get me to lead a lynch on him. She also named Krak to be innocent.

Perhaps if we lynch Krak, it will confirm or deny her statements to me?

Sir Redust · January 9, 2011

I dont see the point in the list in the first place, which is why I think Kivam's trying to sow confusion by lending a helping hand, so to speak. He's managed to confuse me.

Kivam · January 9, 2011

71) Lily responds to Toy

72) I unvote Aemon (having the same role, I believed his claim) and voted Alanna based on my prior concerns

73) I say I caught Lily's implication, and ask Toy to unvote

74) Aust's post is . . . weird - Aust, what did you mean "the next move is Aemon's" - he'd already revealed, what else was he supposed to do?

75) After unvoting, Aust shifts the spotlight back to Song - Might be leaning town on Aust - why spotlight a teammate who'd faded back into the background. Then again, the "question" she didn't respond to was the lifeline he tossed her - and he characterizes it in his post as a "softball". Slight town lean here.

76) Song responds - sorry, was distracted by the holidays, yes she did take Mynd seriously (picks up the lifeline)

77) Aust questions the response - pointing out that Song had responded to other posts. I'm strongly leaning town on Aust after this series of posts

78) Alanna unvotes

79) Aemon confirms he wasn't seriously accusing anyone - makes me lean more strongly town on Aemon; this was a post he didn't have to make if scum, nobody would have questioned its absence.

80) A discussion of deadlines leads to Lily's post about the triggers

NOTE - NOW THAT WE KNOW LILY WAS TOWN, WE HAVE TO ASSUME SHE WAS TELLING THE TRUTH. WES' "ACTIONS" ARE BEING TRIGGERED BASED ON THE AMOUNT OF TIME WE TAKE EACH DAY

aemonkristen · January 9, 2011

I dont see the point in the list in the first place, which is why I think Kivam's trying to sow confusion by lending a helping hand, so to speak. He's managed to confuse me.

And yet you try to paint a target on me using the list as your basis. You really aren't looking very townie to me right now. You have contradicted yourself in each of your last three posts regarding Kiv's equations.

@Mynd- I would think Verbal would be the one to lynch if we were to test Songs revelations to you in the Great Beyond. I don't see the point in lynching someone she claimed was innocent if you believe she was telling the truth. I'm still not sold on the idea, but I do think it merits discussion. It is very tempting.

Kivam · January 9, 2011

This post is jumping out at me:

@dralid- that was just me FOSing the people FOSing me. Call it mutual fingering.

Am I the only one that caught this?

Ok, time to go to the next person on my list.

unvote

vote alanna

Here's the thing - just a day earlier, Krak called SONG, NOT ALANNA, the scummiest one on his list:

My vote stays.

Also, Kiv I know what you mean. Well...technically I don't, but I was supposed to be in NY from the 27-31 and our flight was cancelled due to the absurd amounts of snow. Next year however...and I'll be 21 which means anyone who wanted to catch a drink in Manhattan, well I'd be 200% down for that shite! Also, I might be in NY over the summer, so if I am, I'll let some peeps know because I turn 21 in January.

On a game related note, I think Hybrid did a good job with his observations. I would say that Song and Alanna are looking scummiest at this point, but mainly Song. Also, it's a good read of the situation, but he also points out scumminess in about 4-6 different people, all of whom can't be mafia. This fact makes me want to look closer at Hybrid, his general and partially ambiguous accusations (depending on which person he looked at) could be a ploy to look town by casting suspicion on multiple people. If only one person flips mafia out of those, I think Hybrid is our next bet.

Krak - what exactly happened to make Alanna next on your list instead of Song?

Kivam · January 9, 2011

I dont see the point in the list in the first place, which is why I think Kivam's trying to sow confusion by lending a helping hand, so to speak. He's managed to confuse me.

And yet you try to paint a target on me using the list as your basis. You really aren't looking very townie to me right now. You have contradicted yourself in each of your last three posts regarding Kiv's equations.

@Mynd- I would think Verbal would be the one to lynch if we were to test Songs revelations to you in the Great Beyond. I don't see the point in lynching someone she claimed was innocent if you believe she was telling the truth. I'm still not sold on the idea, but I do think it merits discussion. It is very tempting.

Not really. Here are the options (objectively):

1) Song was telling the truth about everyone (Verbal and I are scum - not true but again, objectively - Krak is innocent)

2) Song was telling the truth about Verbal, lying about me and Krak (Verbal is scum, Krak is scum, I am innocent)

3) Song was telling the truth about me, lying about Verbal and Krak (I'm scum , Krak is scum, Verbal is innocent)

4) Song was telling the truth about Krak, lying about me and Verbal (all three are innocent)

5) Song was telling the truth about Krak and me, lying about Verbal (Krak and Verb are innocent, I'm scum)

6) Song was telling the truth about Krak and Verb, lying about me (Krak and I are innocent, Verb are scum)

7) Song was telling the truth about me and Verb, lying about Krak (all three are scum)

8) Song was telling the truth about all of us (Verb and I are Scum, Krak is innocent)

9) Song was lying about everyone (Verb and I are innocent, Krak is scum)

Now, lets say you lynch me, and I flip innocent (I pick me, because I know how I'll flip). That leaves you with options 2 (Verb and Krak are scum), 4 (Verb and Krak are innocent), 6 ( Verb is scum and Krak is innocent), and 9 (Krak is scum and Verb is innocent).

Now what? Bottom line is that lynching any one of us doesn't tell us anything at all about the others, no matter what the coroner result is - because we have no way of knowing how many of us Song was telling the truth about (I know she was lying about me, at least). So you can't "test" Song's info (assuming you trust Mynd that she actually said that, and I'm not sure I do), if by "test" you mean "take one action to give you a better read on the truth of her other assertions"). The only thing to do would be to lynch the three of us, one after another.

In other words, to allow a known scum to control the town's next 3 lynches after her death.

That is NEVER a good idea. I said as much on the dead thread of Mynd's game when the town in the heroes game was letting me control things from beyond the grave. And here's the kicker - SONG KNOWS THAT, because she was my scum teammate in that game and what I did was set up to help her. And MYND should know that as well, which is why I find his pushing working with Song's info so suspicious.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the only thing to do with info received from already outed scum is to ignore it completely. Don't get into the WIFOM at all. Just play the rest of the game the same way - vote for suspicious players based on their own actions and interactions. Because once scum has been outed, their ONLY remaining goal is manipulation of how people will vote after they are dead.

Kivam · January 9, 2011

Tl;Dr version -

1) There's no way to "test" Song's info

2) The best thing to do with scum playing WIFOM games after they've been revealed as scum is to ignore the info completely. Otherwise, you're letting scum control the game post-mortem

Russian Devil Hotel - Game Thread (ON)

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