Why don't the Forsaken kill important people?

[Taura-Tierno]

I get that Rand is difficult to kill, and that some main characters up until now have been really important. But now that Elayne's unified Andor and soon Cairhien, and Egwene has stabilized the Tower, why don't the Forsaken kill them? Killing Elayne would surely throw Andor back into chaos, and if Egwene were to die, the Aes Sedai might return to squabbling, despite tarmon gai'don being on their doorstep, quite literally.

 

It wouldn't be too difficult to do, would it? I mean. Demandred could Travel to a couple of miles outside Caemlyn, call down a dozen of lightning bolts on the royal palace and then disappear before anyone had any time to discover him. Or he could use the Mask of Mirrors and disguise himself as somebody else, walk through the palace in Caemlyn and just chop Elayne's head off with a weave of Air and Skim away quickly. Just like any female Forsaken could disguise themselves as any Aes Sedai, go demand an audience with Egwene, and then kill her and Travel away. I doubt that Egwene would be a match even for Moghedien in a direct duel, since she is weaker than them. And if Moridin were to send Graendal, who's very strong, it should be quite easy, shouldn't it?

[Jon Paul]

In Egwene's case why would they want to kill her? She's a perfect tool for the use of the Shadow. She's doing everything the Dark One wants: sowing chaos. In Elayne's case there have been attempts on her life. You also need to consider the nature of the Shadow's tactics up until now. They can cause much more chaos and anarchy by striking silently from the shadows. If someone pops up and starts raining death down on the Andoran Palace then it's going to raise eyes brows. Until the Shadow is forced out into the open then they have no reason to alter their game. Why do you think there hasn't really been a major strike from the Blight as far as tGS? Why do you think Rhavin, Sammael, Be'lal &c. didn't announce themselves when they took over various nations?

 

Oh and there is no guarantee that if Demandred jumped out and started throwing thunder down on Andor that he would hit his mark. He's too good a strategist/tactician for that. And then there's the fact that these characters do have a sense of depth, personalities with both positives and negatives. They're people with all the failings that come with it.

[Taura-Tierno]

Egwene isn't sowing chaos anymore. She's united the Tower, and no one seems to question her authority anymore. Killing her would, at least for a while, paralyze the White Tower. It wouldn't stop them from participating in the Last Battle, of course, but it would definitely weaken their cohesion, imo.

 

And yes, I realize that there was little point in them spreading chaos openly earlier. But Tarmon Gai'don is coming, and if there ever was a time to strike down the leadership of the various nations, now would be the time to do so. I don't mean that calling down lightning on the palace must be the best way, just that the Forsaken are still so superior in terms of the One Power to anyone but Rand that if they personally tried to assassinate someone, they wouldn't have any problem doing it.

[Shard]

There was an attempt on Dobraine and Bashere.

[sleepinghour]

They don't even have to use the OP. Instead of putting forkroot in Elayne's tea, they could easily have poisoned her. Birgitte once mentioned how a wimpy Darkfriend in the AoL still managed to murder hundreds of people by poisoning the water supply.

[Taura-Tierno]

Which is why I'm really having trouble understanding what reasonable explanation there could be. Seems to me they're making the classic "don't kill the hero when you've got the chance"-mistake, which I always find extremely cheap. Crippling the Tower and Andor would cripple the forces of Light for the Last Battle, so it should be in the Shadow's interest to do just that.

[David Selig]

Because then the series would've been over 10 books ago and the Shadow would've won easily. Instead of doing simple but effective stuff, they come up with all kinds of overly elaborate plans to give the heroes a chance.

 

I guess there's a rule in the villain rule book that you are not allowed to be straight forward and use common sense in your plans.

[Haran]

  On 12/2/2010 at 3:19 PM, David Selig said:

Because then the series would've been over 10 books ago and the Shadow would've won easily. Instead of doing simple but effective stuff, they come up with all kinds of overly elaborate plans to give tout heroes a chance.

 

I guess there's a rule in the villain rule book that you are not allowed to be straight forward and use common sense in your plans.

 

This.

 

or

 

Some people try to explain the shadows stupidity by saying that if the Dark One kills the Dragon he will win the last battle, but only reset the war. As the wheel turns etc everything starts over again.

But if the Dark One turns the Dragon over to the shadow he will be able to destroy the wheel itself.

[buckeyebull64]

Maybe it's like why don't Bond villians ever just shoot him when they capture him, instead of revealing thier plans before letting him escape? (seriously, bond is easier to capture than Elayne in a sack.)

 

But remember when they were let out, they did neatly dispose of the leaders of the world...they just werent the main cast at the time. And once the main character established themselves as players, they became very hard to get to. Rand scares them, Mat can't be channeled at, no one knows where Perrin went, Egwene and Elayne are surrounded by Aes Sedai, who for all thier faults are not pushovers in large numbers. Combine that to all of the Forsaken now being under Mordin's thumb, who is insane and likely has an end game no one can see coming over a winter field at noon on a clear day.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Answer:They're self-absorbed age of legends aes seda- er...dingbats? No, wait, the first one - no, no I mean they're dingbats. I mean Aes Sedai, er...

 

They could kill Rand, but Rand's the only one who can break the seals and set the Dark One free. Dead Rand = DO still sealed away.

 

Maybe they figure if they went around killing everybody important it'd make too much noise, and draw too much attention, without real gain. On some level it makes more sense to pull a Rahvin, or Sammael so you end up in control of entire nations, and have their resources at your disposal. On the other hand in their conceited mindset, who needs to worry about some pesky current age dingbats being any real threat, we age of legends baby! *brushes shoulders off - Just do your thing, gain power, position and influence, wait for the Dragon to break the seals, then kaboom, game on!

 

Grand scheme of things,the only really really important person, is Rand. For the Light to have that shot of winning against the DO, he needs to be there. BUT, he's also the only one who can break the seals, so they can't kill him until after he sets the DO free. Whole lot of hurry up and wait...you figure they might have taken up baking, or something.

[Taura-Tierno]

  On 12/2/2010 at 3:19 PM, David Selig said:

Because then the series would've been over 10 books ago and the Shadow would've won easily. Instead of doing simple but effective stuff, they come up with all kinds of overly elaborate plans to give the heroes a chance.

 

I guess there's a rule in the villain rule book that you are not allowed to be straight forward and use common sense in your plans.

 

I feel almost certain it's something like this, which is why I asked if there was a legitimate reason, and not just bad writing. Which this part of the story feels like, now.

 

ToM spoiler:

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

It's like Graendal's attempt at Perrin's life. Her trap was actually quite good, and if not for Galad (and almost in spite of his presence) it would have worked. But she still should've had another plan. I mean, how difficult would it have been to kill him herself? Considering the amount of refugees that kept coming and going, she should have been able to sneak it, take a shot at him with the One Power, then disappear in the chaos. All she'd have needed was a disguise and some inverted weaves to kill him with. And then she could have Skimmed away.

 

Or, when Galad appeared, she could have made her way into the camp, and Compelled Galad to attack Perrin, and then sent her army in.

 

Either of those feels a whole lot easier than massing a small trolloc army via portal stones and relying only on that.

 

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Ya, when you have a bunch of untrained teenagers using a battle against evil as a personal growth experience, it helps to have a high level of incompetence in the evildoers to help offset the lack of experience in the heroes. If the DO weren't so insistent on recruiting the Keystone Kops to run his forces, the series would have been over by book two.

 

One would have expected the end of the Eye of the World to have Aginor saying "I faced Lews Therin Telemon himself in the Hall of Servants and matched the Lord of Morning stroke for stroke ... and here's how I did it." Boom. No more good guys. More of a realistic story, to be sure, but less of an entertaining read.

[Taura-Tierno]

  On 12/2/2010 at 10:05 PM, Tom Sawyer said:

Ya, when you have a bunch of untrained teenagers using a battle against evil as a personal growth experience, it helps to have a high level of incompetence in the evildoers to help offset the lack of experience in the heroes. If the DO weren't so insistent on recruiting the Keystone Kops to run his forces, the series would have been over by book two.

 

One would have expected the end of the Eye of the World to have Aginor saying "I faced Lews Therin Telemon himself in the Hall of Servants and matched the Lord of Morning stroke for stroke ... and here's how I did it." Boom. No more good guys. More of a realistic story, to be sure, but less of an entertaining read.

 

It's still perfectly possible to create bad guys that don't have the obvious "never actually kill the hero"-flaw. I think that, to a certain degree, Jordan has actually managed avoid it. I'm starting to have my doubts now, since killing off major characters at this point would most certainly play into the Shadow's hands and undermine the Light. I hope to see some of it in AMoL, though I doubt we will.

[mb]

Title question, is that important to the Pattern or important to just people?

 

If the former, the Pattern would probably either prevent the person/people from being killed or somehow reverse the killing/killings afterward.

 

If the later, little or no opportunity and/or the Forsaken being unwilling might be factors.

 

 

Any character that has unfulfilled prophecies (Foretellings/Viewings/Dreams/etc), they would be important to the Pattern.

Elayne & Egwene are 2 such people; Perrin is also.

[Jon Paul]

  On 12/2/2010 at 11:25 AM, Taura-Tierno said:

Egwene isn't sowing chaos anymore. She's united the Tower, and no one seems to question her authority anymore. Killing her would, at least for a while, paralyze the White Tower. It wouldn't stop them from participating in the Last Battle, of course, but it would definitely weaken their cohesion, imo.

 

This is exactly why Egwene is sowing chaos. She has unified then Tower behind her authority. She has unified the Tower against Rand. She's establishing Tower-dominance over all female channellers so that she not only increases the power of the Tower but also increases the Tower's forces against Rand.

 

The sad thing is, Egwene, who thinks she's a good person (though we know she's quite disgusting), has done better than the entire Black Ajah has in millennia!

 

  Quote

And yes, I realize that there was little point in them spreading chaos openly earlier. But Tarmon Gai'don is coming, and if there ever was a time to strike down the leadership of the various nations, now would be the time to do so. I don't mean that calling down lightning on the palace must be the best way, just that the Forsaken are still so superior in terms of the One Power to anyone but Rand that if they personally tried to assassinate someone, they wouldn't have any problem doing it.

 

You'll want to read ToM soon.

 

And also, don't be so sure about the Forsaken strength. These savages have already done things thought impossible by the Forsaken who are from an age of impossibilities. These barbarians also have access to angreal, sa'angreal and circles.

 

The Forsaken wont risk that..

[Hadilmir]

Some may consider this discussion a spoiler, though it's too vague to be one if you ask me. Just in case, I'll leave this spoiler tag here.

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

  On 12/3/2010 at 3:28 AM, Jon Paul said:

This is exactly why Egwene is sowing chaos. She has unified then Tower behind her authority. She has unified the Tower against Rand. She's establishing Tower-dominance over all female channellers so that she not only increases the power of the Tower but also increases the Tower's forces against Rand.

 

The sad thing is, Egwene, who thinks she's a good person (though we know she's quite disgusting), has done better than the entire Black Ajah has in millennia!

 

She has united the White Tower against a baseless plan that calls for the apparent destruction of the world, coming from a potential madman that she knows grew up as a farmer. She has not, however, united the Tower against Rand; not everyone reads Egwene's actions in a totally negative light, so there's absolutely no good reason for saying everyone's opinion of her is that she's 'quite disgusting'.

 

[Taura-Tierno]

  On 12/3/2010 at 3:28 AM, Jon Paul said:

  On 12/2/2010 at 11:25 AM, Taura-Tierno said:

Egwene isn't sowing chaos anymore. She's united the Tower, and no one seems to question her authority anymore. Killing her would, at least for a while, paralyze the White Tower. It wouldn't stop them from participating in the Last Battle, of course, but it would definitely weaken their cohesion, imo.

 

This is exactly why Egwene is sowing chaos. She has unified then Tower behind her authority. She has unified the Tower against Rand. She's establishing Tower-dominance over all female channellers so that she not only increases the power of the Tower but also increases the Tower's forces against Rand.

 

The sad thing is, Egwene, who thinks she's a good person (though we know she's quite disgusting), has done better than the entire Black Ajah has in millennia!

 

  Quote

And yes, I realize that there was little point in them spreading chaos openly earlier. But Tarmon Gai'don is coming, and if there ever was a time to strike down the leadership of the various nations, now would be the time to do so. I don't mean that calling down lightning on the palace must be the best way, just that the Forsaken are still so superior in terms of the One Power to anyone but Rand that if they personally tried to assassinate someone, they wouldn't have any problem doing it.

 

You'll want to read ToM soon.

 

And also, don't be so sure about the Forsaken strength. These savages have already done things thought impossible by the Forsaken who are from an age of impossibilities. These barbarians also have access to angreal, sa'angreal and circles.

 

The Forsaken wont risk that..

 

I've read ToM. Spoiler:

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I agree with Hadilmir. She hasn't united the Tower against Rand; right now, she's just against his plan. She'll probably come around, and if she does, so will the entire Tower. If she died, the Tower wouldn't know what to do. In all likelihood, the Hall wouldn't be able to just choose another Amyrlin without at least some debate. That'd take time. They'd be disorganized, and they wouldn't be in anywhere near as good a fighting condition as they'll be with Egwene at the top.

 

Besides, Egwene will never unite the Tower against Rand. He's already got quite a number of Aes Sedai sworn to him, not to mention that Cadsuane's (more or less) on his side. I doubt Egwene will ever be a match for Cadsuane. If Cadsuane supports Rand, she'll likely attract support from other sisters. And Nynaeve doesn't even support Egwene's opposition, it seems. So. If Egwene died, the Tower would fall into total chaos, I think.