What would you change if you were writing WoT?

[Mr Ares]

@Majsju - I must disagree with you. If you can follow my convoluted reasoning for a second, I wouldn't mind reading a book that was written in a truly matriarchial society since that would provide an interesting subversion of the fantasy genre.

The problem with WoT in this regard is that while it aspires to this, it never really reaches this level since all the women have in essence been written by a man who grew up in a nominally patriarchal society and thus act that way.

But WoT doesn't aspire to a truly matriarchal society, that wasn't what RJ was trying to do, therefore one can hardly consider him a failure for not having done it.

 

Consider also Rands "Ah mah gah I must not let a woman die" idiocy. Leaving aside its stupidity as face value, why on earth would a male who has grown up in Randland feel the need to "protect" a woman ? As the perceived stronger gender, it should be the other way around i.e. you SHOULD see a lot more women falling on their swords as they try to protect the "men & children"

But men are still perceived as the stronger gender. Women have more power in this world than they would have in our world in a similar time period, but it is not a women-are-in-charge situation, it is a women have more power situation. Doesn't mean men are now physically weaker.

 

Also in almost every polyamorous relationship we have seen its ALWAYS multiple women who agree to be sisters and "share" one man.

The only polygamous culture we see in the books is the Aiel. They have a culture built around fighting, and most of their fighters are male, so you will probably end up with an imbalance of more women than men, consequently it nakes more sense to have many weives than it does multiple husbands.

[Myrenna]

To be honest, I think in WoT we see more polygamous relationships with many men! I can think of three named characters with multiple wives off the top of my head, but what about the Green Ajah? Names aren't named, but I think it's made pretty clear what's going on there.

 

About Rand's woman protecting, I actually never thought of it that way, it's an interesting viewpoint. I think it's about women being physically weaker, although they're certainly more powerful than men in other ways in the series. I don't remember for example, Rand going easy on Colavere.

 

If I could change something I'd probably cut out lots of politics and maneuvering, haha! I'd also get rid of that cringe-inducing scene with the diva who sings an aria and a couple of other nods to the modern world. Nynaeve brushing her teeth always seemed odd to me...

 

And I'd make them publish an English English version so those pesky zeds stop giving me a mental itch! I want my Us back!

[Ananta]

But that's just the thing - WoT is supposed to reverse the power situation between men and women, and yet even in the OP (which should bear no link to your physical strength) men are naturally more powerful. There is something very patriarchal and conservative in this idea. Men and women could have been equals in the OP - but no. Why? What is the point of that, really? It only serves to reinforce traditional gender divisions and roles.

 

 

 

The only reason women are in power in WoT is because men are/were killed if they could channel. During AoL, the dude with highest power was Lews Therin. True, he wasn't dictator, and a woman of almost equal power was able to put a halt to his plans.

 

I'm not saying women wouldn't be in power if the males weren't killed, but the power would be more divided among women and men, possibly 50/50 even.

 

And yes, I agree, there's no reason why men and women wouldn't be equals in OP. But we're told that Lanfear is strongest female, and that she is possibly strongest in power after Moridin from all Forsaken. Also, Alivia is said to be as strong, if not stronger, than Lanfear in OP. And then there's Sharina, who is as strong as, or stronger than, Alivia. This means that it's possible for woman to be as strong as the top of the line men, too. True, Rand is above them all, but he's supposed to be, he's The Dragon Reborn.

[Pokeriser]

If I were writing Wheel of Time, I wouldnt have made Rand give back Andor, and give Cairhien, to Elayne. If he had of kept both kingdoms, he would be far more powerful, and have complete control over the nations resources, but with Elayne, who often does unneccesary, risky things to prove she's brave, sitting on the throne of both nations, he probably only has the ability to make her march her armies to the Last Battle. And only if he asks nicely, otherwise she'd probably turn up late just to spite him, or disobey his orders to do what she feels is "right", and stuff up his whole plan.

With Andor and Cairhien, as well as Tear and Illian, he would control the entire east, and then if the Borderland nations were to join him, I doubt the Seanchan could resist being taken into the Dragon Empire for long, and he would control the entire world. THEN, and ONLY THEN, would I allow him to give Elayne Andor, but only as a representative of the Dragon and without full autonomy.

Unfortunately, this wouldnt be in line with Rand's character, but by hardening him sooner, but not making him insane, I would say it would be highly likely. Then you could have the same Veins of Gold moment, but differently, with Rand not becoming so peace-loving, just much more sane and educated, and he then marches the armies of the world to Shayol Ghul to fight the Last Battle, shortening the series to 12 books instead of 13. Why shorten it? So that I dont have to wait for this last goddamn book -.-

[Fade]

This is very simple and minor but i would give the aiel sun goggles. Anybody here tried to traverse desert before? these are essential for preventing blindness and all they would need is some smoked glass fitted into frames to fit with the level of technology available.

[Exy]

But WoT doesn't aspire to a truly matriarchal society, that wasn't what RJ was trying to do, therefore one can hardly consider him a failure for not having done it.

No, but according to RJ, he DID aspire to depict a society where men and women are equal, and he failed profoundly at that.

 

 

what about the Green Ajah? Names aren't named' date=' but I think it's made pretty clear what's going on there.[/quote']

We've at very least seen Rhuarc and Rand openly practicing polygyny, and it's been made very clear that among the Aiel, that's the norm. There have barely been hints that some green sleep with their warders, and since they have more than one, presumably some of them are sleeping with multiple men. But Myrelle's the only green sister they've really implied is sleeping with all her warders, that I can remember. The fact that they remark upon it in regard to her personally makes me think she's probably unusual in that regard.

 

 

About Rand's woman protecting' date=' I actually never thought of it that way, it's an interesting viewpoint. I think it's about women being physically weaker, although they're certainly more powerful than men in other ways in the series. I don't remember for example, Rand going easy on Colavere.[/quote']

Really? You have to have seen all the bits where he moans to himself over and over about all the women he's gotten killed, and it's always specifically women. "Chivalrous" treatment of women is pretty routine in the WOT universe; on a reread (towards the end of tGH) I'm noticing how many times the Shienarans are depicted as having a deeply ingrained attitude towards protecting women. Rand repeats to the Lady Selene (not knowing who she actually is, of course) a Shienaran saying that went something like, "A man who won't throw down his life to save a woman's doesn't deserve to be called a man." I know that sort of thing tends to go with the genre but I gotta say, it does sort of stick out, especially when it's a woman who can channel that's being protected. I don't have a big problem with this, but it's anomalous in a work that, again, is supposed to depict a society that isn't sexist.

 

 

But we're told that Lanfear is strongest female' date=' and that she is possibly strongest in power after Moridin from all Forsaken.[/quote']

I don't think she even approaches Lews Therin and Ishamael. Moiraine said something to that effect, but she made it pretty clear that it was just speculation, and that was before we'd really seen any of them. Demandred and Sammael have both been mentioned so many times as being nearly as powerful as Lews Therin that I think it's hard to credit the possibility that Lanfear was closer in power to the Big Two than they were.

 

Besides, it's just not really plausible. Asmodean makes it clear that women are categorically weaker in the power than men, and likens it to arm strength. If that's the case, than there's not even a possibility that the third most powerful channeler in the world is a woman, any more than it's possible that the third strongest pair of arms in the world is a woman.

[Myrenna]

what about the Green Ajah? Names aren't named' date=' but I think it's made pretty clear what's going on there.[/quote']

We've at very least seen Rhuarc and Rand openly practicing polygyny, and it's been made very clear that among the Aiel, that's the norm. There have barely been hints that some green sleep with their warders, and since they have more than one, presumably some of them are sleeping with multiple men. But Myrelle's the only green sister they've really implied is sleeping with all her warders, that I can remember. The fact that they remark upon it in regard to her personally makes me think she's probably unusual in that regard.

 

I meant that there are three named Aiel characters I can think of from the top of my head, whereas we meet a lot of Green sisters, and a lot of them have more than one Warder, and it's suggested that the Greens sleep with their Warders.

 

 

About Rand's woman protecting' date=' I actually never thought of it that way, it's an interesting viewpoint. I think it's about women being physically weaker, although they're certainly more powerful than men in other ways in the series. I don't remember for example, Rand going easy on Colavere.[/quote']

Really? You have to have seen all the bits where he moans to himself over and over about all the women he's gotten killed, and it's always specifically women. "Chivalrous" treatment of women is pretty routine in the WOT universe; on a reread (towards the end of tGH) I'm noticing how many times the Shienarans are depicted as having a deeply ingrained attitude towards protecting women. Rand repeats to the Lady Selene (not knowing who she actually is, of course) a Shienaran saying that went something like, "A man who won't throw down his life to save a woman's doesn't deserve to be called a man." I know that sort of thing tends to go with the genre but I gotta say, it does sort of stick out, especially when it's a woman who can channel that's being protected. I don't have a big problem with this, but it's anomalous in a work that, again, is supposed to depict a society that isn't sexist.

 

I think you misunderstood me here. I said that his guilt is felt over not protecting women from physical danger, because they are physically weaker. What you're saying here completely agrees with the point I made. Men are always looking out for women in physical danger, but throughout the series, men and women are equally ruthless towards each other in political situations. A good example of this is Saldaean couples. Faile is offended when Perrin doesn't shout at her, because it suggests that he doesn't view her as a worthy opponent in a shouting match. However, she allows him to protect her from physical harm.

[Durinax]

I would change nothign about the books. If I did change anything it wouldnt be the WoT I know and love

[Exy]

I meant that there are three named Aiel characters I can think of from the top of my head, whereas we meet a lot of Green sisters, and a lot of them have more than one Warder, and it's suggested that the Greens sleep with their Warders.

Okay, sorry, I wouldn't argue with that.

 

 

I think you misunderstood me here. I said that his guilt is felt over not protecting women from physical danger, because they are physically weaker. What you're saying here completely agrees with the point I made. Men are always looking out for women in physical danger, but throughout the series, men and women are equally ruthless towards each other in political situations. A good example of this is Saldaean couples. Faile is offended when Perrin doesn't shout at her, because it suggests that he doesn't view her as a worthy opponent in a shouting match. However, she allows him to protect her from physical harm.

Okay, I apologize for this too, I didn't get your point. But I do think there are examples of all three boys being protective of women when they don't have to be, particularly in regard to women who can channel. (Although, of course, there was that example in tDR where Mat was needed to save the supergirls.)

[Aiyen kin Leary]

Plot-wise, I would change very little. RJ is an incredible storyteller, and besting what he did storywise would be extremely difficult. However, I would have focused and abridged MUCH more than he did, and put a bit more focus on the awesome parts of the story (the AoL, the tricks of the Shadow, the Portal Stones and Mirror Worlds, Rand learning and growing, the world changing and the status quo being balefired-sometimes literally!) and less on the slow bits (Rand brushing his teeth for three books, etc). World-building adds realism and can make the exciting parts much more meaningful, but RJ IMO took it to an extent that it began to cheapen the climaxes. "The World is changing, Tarmon Gai'don is coming!" sounds pretty powerful at first, but when that's followed by scores of chapters where nothing happens, it starts to sound weak, and that in turn affects how the climaxes feel when they do occur. I'd make the series much shorter to keep the tension from going through CoT-like lulls.

 

1. The Eye of the World

2. The Great Hunt

3. The Dragon Reborn

4. The Ancient Spears (TSR and TFOH)

5. Lord of Chaos (LOC and much of ACOS)

6. Children of the Hawk (a bit of the ACOS material, TPOD and maybe a little of WH)

7. Crossroads of Twilight (begins with the Cleansing, covers COT and KOD)

8. A Memory of Light (TGS TOM and AMOL)

 

Or something like that. Doubtless there would have to be a few more books to get all the amazing intricacies into the tale, but it would be nice to have each book really feel like something happened, rather than the slow pace we got later on in the series. Once the Cleansing happened, it really felt like the story should be wrapped up soon. Epicness on that scale just begs for the grand finale to follow soon.

 

None of this is meant as any insult to RJ's and BS's wonderful work, I love all of it and am extremely grateful they have written something like this for us. But if the thread title is what would you change, well...

[Myrenna]

7. Crossroads of Twilight (begins with the Cleansing, covers COT and KOD)

 

I agree! When I was finished Crossroads of Twilight and moved onto Knife of Dreams, in the prologue, somebody (I can't remember who) said something about the "strange beacon of power three days ago" and I had an enormous "Wait, what?!" moment, haha!

[hfel]

 

You have to admit that the WoT series doesn't exactly fit the bill of cover-to-cover action. It's good now, but it would be a much better series if it were more concise.

 

There is a huge amount of repetitive description that could be cut (e.g. the deceptive casualness/relaxation of warders or aiel). But everything should be retained, just not repeated. A concise cover-to-cover action series would not be the same experience. It's the all details, all the characters, all the subplots, all the back stories, that make the WOT what it is. Besides what would we argue and speculate about if all the plots were logical and consistent, and the relationships and characters realistic?

[dobraine]

* Get some recognition for Dobraine, some more land or something, seems like he's getting kinda trodden on

 

'nuff said

[T00thbrush]

There is a huge amount of repetitive description that could be cut (e.g. the deceptive casualness/relaxation of warders or aiel).

 

Loial's capacious coat pockets.