Discuss Egwene

[bysomy]

Police if and where needed?

 

Honestly not sure what you're getting at with that, or if you've just totally missed my point.

 

I was drawing an analogy between roles that are respected because the nature of the role and not necessarilly the person in it and the type of respect the Aes Sedai expect. The Aes Sedai expect to be respected because of their role, because they are Aes Sedai, not because they have warders or live for a long time, so I just don't see why that's an issue.

I'm going off your "personal risk" thing. judges can't wrap people in air(most of the time). Judges are respected because you have to prove yourself to be a judge, so the best people get in. Aes Sedai are based on your ability to channel.A physical ability, just like how not all pro sports players are morally conscious, says nothing about your personal character. They don't really have a role, except as the aristocracy of Tar Valon, unless you count their personal hobbies. The Aes Sedai don't deserve respect and they don't get it.

Not gonna lie I laughed so hard at those. You haven't had much exposure to academics or judges have you?

 

Perhaps I'm just being overly cynicle, but that sums up a lot of my recollections from my time at University. Either way it gave me a chuckle, thanks ^.^

Can't argue with this one.

Right, but since at absolute maximum capacity there's still not likely to be a hospital in Arad Doman's capital, you'd be dead regardless. After all they only have enough people for a few and why would they put one so close to the Seanchan, and who would be liekly to put their hand up to staff it if they tried?

Lets say they have enough Yellows for 6 hospitols. Caemlyn and Cairhien would likely be two. Illian a maybe, Tear, Far Madding, and Amador definite no's. That leaves Lugard, Ebou Dar, Tanchico(sorry, said Elmora instead), Bandar Eban, and a scattering of Yellows in the Borderlands. Lugard is basicly in a state of anarchy, Ebou Dar has the Kin, Tanchico and Bandar Eban are next likely. So The 6 most likely are Caemlyn, Cairhien, Illian, Tanchico, Bandar Eban, and the Borderlands. Since this is Pre-Seanchan and Pre-Traveling, more people would be healed in greater numbers.

[Durinax]

The Aes Sedai weren't particularly welcome under Morgase. Any upset or change of leadership or in the power balance or just any rulers personal gripe and they're gone. No protection, not assistance and whatever they've set up is lost.

 

If they rely on other governments for bodyguards etc they end up in a position of dependance on the monarch, a monarch they may need to negotiate a treaty with, or that they may need to work with in some other way where they do need their independance. And again if they establish a working relationship of that sort with one monarch what happens when the monarch changes? They'll lose everything again.

 

They do do charitable work, just not how you think it should be done, it clearly hasn't been enough to counter the Whitecloak claims. I can see what you're saying in that they need to make it more visible, and there's merit to that, but again with the numbers they have how visible could they be? Particularly when they rely on people's consent to do things like healing, which is not in general very forthcoming.

 

There is every indication that they do go out looking for girls who can channel already, at the very least when on their travels (and they travel a lot) they keep their eye out and bring people back. Or did you mean they should go with tax collectors to do charitable work? If so who would staff the hospitals? Who would do all the other stuff that needs doing? Would they be trading off doing actual practical work against visibility? And is that particularly ethical? They could heal more at a hospital or by staying put in the WT, but in traveling around healing they'd be seen as doing more more although the reality would be they'd likely heal less. I'm sure people would be howling if they chose to travel around and make themselves look good at the expense of not actually getting as much done.

under Morgase AS where welcome up until Gaebril and that whole Elayne dissappearing bit occured. Plus I think they would be hard to displace if the people respected and appreciated them, rioting and protesting would occur in some capacity which would show public disapproval.

 

what I am saying is that if they where out in the world where the people could see what good deeds they did/taught the people the truth of the breaking that people would here both sides and could make informed details (and I think that AS wouldn't be as distrusted since many people believe that they broke the world)

 

as for the tax collectors I was just saying that if they needed a body guard towards tar valon (lets say with a load of young girls who can become novices) that they could accompany them to the border of the realm with protection, and potentially doing good deeds along the way.

[Fel]

Look at the difference in opinion of the people of Emonds Field toward Moraine in the very first book. They all distrust Aes Sedai and are ready to run her out of town until they are reminded of the help she provided them and how she healed people. A few good deeds done can have an enormous effect on the reputation and respect that Aes Sedai can garner.

 

Another key thing they would need to do, however, is stop constantly tying the truth in knots. It does them no good to constantly shade the truth. "The truth you hear from an Aes Sedai is not the truth you think it is" should be a huge red flag for them that people do not trust them as far as they can throw them.

 

I completely agree that being out and about with the people more would help them immeasurably with their ability to get their agendas done.

[Darth Krewl]

Look at the difference in opinion of the people of Emonds Field toward Moraine in the very first book. They all distrust Aes Sedai and are ready to run her out of town until they are reminded of the help she provided them and how she healed people. A few good deeds done can have an enormous effect on the reputation and respect that Aes Sedai can garner.

 

Exactly. This is what I'm talking about. Respect *earned* through actions, not expected through words. It's precisely Moiraine's deeds throughout the books that earns her the respect of those around her. Not her words.

 

Aes Sedai are *feared* and *shunned* by the people of their world, which is not the same as *respected*. They even take pride in it, since their whole act revolves around acting in "mysterious ways", while keeping their faces as "smooth masks of serenity", even when the readers have already been shown time and time again that this is nothing but an act, a facade; smoke and mirrors and nothing more.

 

I guess Aes Sedai, for the most part, are the kind who say, "I'd rather be feared than respected" in which case, if one was to interpret the title "Servants of All" as a reference to public officials, then it must be said that any public official who'd rather be feared than respected automatically becomes a tyrant or a dictator, depending on their position.

[Kahlika]

I was drawing an analogy between roles that are respected because the nature of the role and not necessarilly the person in it and the type of respect the Aes Sedai expect. The Aes Sedai expect to be respected because of their role, because they are Aes Sedai, not because they have warders or live for a long time, so I just don't see why that's an issue.

 

lol...people aren't respected for their roles or titles anymore. Deeds shall always speak louder than words. That's what makes someone respect people. It does take awareness to see beyond the obvious, of course, but some folk do see past a white robe on a doctor and seek a second opinion, for instance. While others see way past the black robes and crosses on the chest and keep their young boys as far away from those "priests" as they can heh heh...

 

Of course they are. Everyone is taught to show respect to people who may or may not deserve it as people but who are entitled to it because of their position. It's very much part of how society runs. Aside from the judges already cited there's police, teachers, the military, all people who we are taught to respect when they are in their role regardless of what you think of them personally. Sure everyone doesn't want to play the game, but the pros and cons of that approach aren't really up for debate here, it's fairly irrelevant anyway, the basic point remains that people are accorded a type of respect by virtue of their roles, and additionally people in certain roles expect respect because of them. What people don't seem to want to acknowledge is that there is more than one type of respect. The respect accorded to people because of their deeds is one kind certainly, but there is also the kind accorded to people because of their role, which like it or not is just as real. And while the AS might not have any claim to one kind they do expect (and largely get) the other.

 

They are generally public servants (excepting academics at private institutions which aren't common where I am and I admittedly forgot about when posting the analogy) i.e. servants of the public, i.e. servants of all.

 

That's all Servants of All ever meant, even in the AoL Servants of All was akin to public servant, not a litteral servant.

 

Aes Sedai of the Third Age do not even qualify as public servants, simply because nobody has granted them with that power outside their jurisdiction perhaps, which would be limited to Tar Valon. I had already blown your last arguments about Cadsuane's abusive behavior concerning Tam with this simple word: jurisdiction.

 

A judge can be respected but has no power outside his jurisdiction.

 

Ditto for a scholar or an academic, except when outside their field of expertise.

 

Aes Sedai have not been granted with power to serve "anyone" and have no jurisdiction over any territory outside their own, so their title means spit and they deserve no more respect than that which they earn to themselves.

 

I don't now how you can hope to make any argument about jurisdiction stand when we have absolutely no clue what they laws are (and I suspect I'm one of the few who would find any interest in that). Without that kind of detail we can't know who has jurisdiction over what. However in the absence of laws we can look at custom and practice to be guided by that, and we can infer from what we do know of the laws.

 

Tower Law seems to be unusual in that it grants Aes Sedai jurisdiction over specific 'areas', rather than general jurisdication over a location (although they would have that as well, localised in Tar Valon). We know they claim jurisdiction over men who can channel, objects of the one power and Aes Sedai themselves under Tower Law for example, regardless of where those are found. Of course we don't know if everyone else agrees that that's acceptable, however from the lack of people telling them they can't do whatever they're doing, through to the general support and assistance they recieve in doing it, it appears that their jurisdiction over the 'areas' regardless of location is generally recognised.

 

I'm going off your "personal risk" thing. judges can't wrap people in air(most of the time). Judges are respected because you have to prove yourself to be a judge, so the best people get in. Aes Sedai are based on your ability to channel.

 

The Aes Sedai go through long years of training and various tests before being made Aes Sedai. Just being able to channel isn't enough. In that the Aes Sedai's path to becoming Aes Sedai is relatively similar to the path of a civil law judge, who are career judges, rather than elected officials or appointments from amongst barristers.

 

Caemlyn and Cairhien would likely be two. Illian a maybe, Tear, Far Madding, and Amador definite no's. That leaves Lugard, Ebou Dar, Tanchico(sorry, said Elmora instead), Bandar Eban, and a scattering of Yellows in the Borderlands. Lugard is basicly in a state of anarchy, Ebou Dar has the Kin, Tanchico and Bandar Eban are next likely. So The 6 most likely are Caemlyn, Cairhien, Illian, Tanchico, Bandar Eban, and the Borderlands. Since this is Pre-Seanchan and Pre-Traveling, more people would be healed in greater numbers.

 

Tanchico is held by the Seanchan, Bandar Eban is right next to the Seanchan, pretty much anything down the entire West side of the map is out, they can't go there. We're talking small numbers of Aes Sedai because that's all they have, and a hospital would be out and out declaring where they are so they aren't going to take too many risks. Caemlyn, Cairhein, Illian would all be logical, Tear, Amadacia and Far Madding are also out, I'd say Murandy is also out, so that really leaves the the Borderlands. There's still a lot of travelling involved to get to any of those places from outside the capitals with all the risks involved. Although it would make more sense to simply use Traveling to take people to Tar Valon if they want Aes Sedai healing at this point rather than have hospital outposts. Of course that isn't as visible so while they may well heal more it's unlikely to change their reputation at this point.

[babuada]

I was drawing an analogy between roles that are respected because the nature of the role and not necessarilly the person in it and the type of respect the Aes Sedai expect. The Aes Sedai expect to be respected because of their role, because they are Aes Sedai, not because they have warders or live for a long time, so I just don't see why that's an issue.

 

lol...people aren't respected for their roles or titles anymore. Deeds shall always speak louder than words. That's what makes someone respect people. It does take awareness to see beyond the obvious, of course, but some folk do see past a white robe on a doctor and seek a second opinion, for instance. While others see way past the black robes and crosses on the chest and keep their young boys as far away from those "priests" as they can heh heh...

 

Of course they are. Everyone is taught to show respect to people who may or may not deserve it as people but who are entitled to it because of their position. It's very much part of how society runs. Aside from the judges already cited there's police, teachers, the military, all people who we are taught to respect when they are in their role regardless of what you think of them personally. Sure everyone doesn't want to play the game, but the pros and cons of that approach aren't really up for debate here, it's fairly irrelevant anyway, the basic point remains that people are accorded a type of respect by virtue of their roles, and additionally people in certain roles expect respect because of them. What people don't seem to want to acknowledge is that there is more than one type of respect. The respect accorded to people because of their deeds is one kind certainly, but there is also the kind accorded to people because of their role, which like it or not is just as real. And while the AS might not have any claim to one kind they do expect (and largely get) the other.

These pretend AS has role?LOL. Like what? They provide no service to any society. And nobody respects them. They fear them, like Bully. There is nothing like respect for pretend position. Respect is alloted for positions that provides service to society as and when society asks for it. Police protects from criminals, Military protects from external threat, Teachers teach whoever wants knowledge they do not horde knowledge like these pretend AS.

 

They are generally public servants (excepting academics at private institutions which aren't common where I am and I admittedly forgot about when posting the analogy) i.e. servants of the public, i.e. servants of all.

 

That's all Servants of All ever meant, even in the AoL Servants of All was akin to public servant, not a litteral servant.

 

Aes Sedai of the Third Age do not even qualify as public servants, simply because nobody has granted them with that power outside their jurisdiction perhaps, which would be limited to Tar Valon. I had already blown your last arguments about Cadsuane's abusive behavior concerning Tam with this simple word: jurisdiction.

 

A judge can be respected but has no power outside his jurisdiction.

 

Ditto for a scholar or an academic, except when outside their field of expertise.

 

Aes Sedai have not been granted with power to serve "anyone" and have no jurisdiction over any territory outside their own, so their title means spit and they deserve no more respect than that which they earn to themselves.

 

I don't now how you can hope to make any argument about jurisdiction stand when we have absolutely no clue what they laws are (and I suspect I'm one of the few who would find any interest in that). Without that kind of detail we can't know who has jurisdiction over what. However in the absence of laws we can look at custom and practice to be guided by that, and we can infer from what we do know of the laws.

 

Tower Law seems to be unusual in that it grants Aes Sedai jurisdiction over specific 'areas', rather than general jurisdication over a location (although they would have that as well, localised in Tar Valon). We know they claim jurisdiction over men who can channel, objects of the one power and Aes Sedai themselves under Tower Law for example, regardless of where those are found. Of course we don't know if everyone else agrees that that's acceptable, however from the lack of people telling them they can't do whatever they're doing, through to the general support and assistance they recieve in doing it, it appears that their jurisdiction over the 'areas' regardless of location is generally recognised.

Yes. Tower Law. That is Law of the Bully. No one country can lawfully make a law to be obeyed by another country. They can force it though. That is the definition of Bully. So what the Tower Law gives according to your quote.

jurisdiction over men who can channel. - This is the best of these worst Bully laws. Ideally they should have helped local authority to deal with them. If they have office in each capitol then that would be easier. But we know these pretend AS :)

jurisdiction over objects of the one power - That is call thievery and hording. LOL

lack of people telling them they can't do whatever they're doing - Because they are Bully. People in Randland cannot fight back because they do not have A'dam. Otherwise they definitely would have done it already.

 

I'm going off your "personal risk" thing. judges can't wrap people in air(most of the time). Judges are respected because you have to prove yourself to be a judge, so the best people get in. Aes Sedai are based on your ability to channel.

 

 

Caemlyn and Cairhien would likely be two. Illian a maybe, Tear, Far Madding, and Amador definite no's. That leaves Lugard, Ebou Dar, Tanchico(sorry, said Elmora instead), Bandar Eban, and a scattering of Yellows in the Borderlands. Lugard is basicly in a state of anarchy, Ebou Dar has the Kin, Tanchico and Bandar Eban are next likely. So The 6 most likely are Caemlyn, Cairhien, Illian, Tanchico, Bandar Eban, and the Borderlands. Since this is Pre-Seanchan and Pre-Traveling, more people would be healed in greater numbers.

 

Tanchico is held by the Seanchan, Bandar Eban is right next to the Seanchan, pretty much anything down the entire West side of the map is out, they can't go there. We're talking small numbers of Aes Sedai because that's all they have, and a hospital would be out and out declaring where they are so they aren't going to take too many risks. Caemlyn, Cairhein, Illian would all be logical, Tear, Amadacia and Far Madding are also out, I'd say Murandy is also out, so that really leaves the the Borderlands. There's still a lot of travelling involved to get to any of those places from outside the capitals with all the risks involved. Although it would make more sense to simply use Traveling to take people to Tar Valon if they want Aes Sedai healing at this point rather than have hospital outposts. Of course that isn't as visible so while they may well heal more it's unlikely to change their reputation at this point.

Are you confused or you are trying to confuse us :)

We are talking about pre Travelling pre Seanchan so nothing is Held by Seanchan and Elmandarb has all valid points. These pretend AS bungled and Bullied for 3000 years. That is the crux of it.

[feedspeed]

I just completed reading TOM! :D I started reading WoT in August, so didn't have to wait.

 

On this topic, I found Egwene disappointing in TOM. I don't know if this has been before - her reaction to the violet sky (dreamspike) in the TAR battle was surprising. Logically, anyone would have thought - oh noes! It's the evil forsaken with AoL knowledge trapping us here. But instead, she thinks if she's trapped, Mesanna is trapped too. Although she was right, I don't see how she came to that conclusion since she had no idea what a dreamspike was. Also, her trying to tie Perrin off with ropes in the middle of the battle was not right.

 

OT - Do the three oaths not hold in TAR?

[Androl]

On this topic, I found Egwene disappointing in TOM. I don't know if this has been before - her reaction to the violet sky (dreamspike) in the TAR battle was surprising. Logically, anyone would have thought - oh noes! It's the evil forsaken with AoL knowledge trapping us here. But instead, she thinks if she's trapped, Mesanna is trapped too. Although she was right, I don't see how she came to that conclusion since she had no idea what a dreamspike was. Also, her trying to tie Perrin off with ropes in the middle of the battle was not right.

 

OT - Do the three oaths not hold in TAR?

I agree she should have immediately assumed that the Forsaken was responsable. And in assuming that the Forsaken was responsable, she should have figured the the Forsaken knew how to get out of it.

 

Not sure about you "three oarhs comment, what does that have to do with anything.

 

Back on the first subject, Once Messana captured her with the A'dam and kept asking her about the "device" she then should have realized that the Forsaken did not cause the "Dome". And that it was obviously caused by some kind of AoL device. Now, does anyone think that Eggy will grow a brain and think to ask Perrin (she knows that her was doing something in TAR at the same time)what he knows about it? So far the main characters have shown little inclination to share important information. Take Elayne, she obviously knows how to make the "Foxheads" prior to the TAR battle, but did she make sure that Eggy had some with her? No. Stupid, stupid.

[Durinax]

On this topic, I found Egwene disappointing in TOM. I don't know if this has been before - her reaction to the violet sky (dreamspike) in the TAR battle was surprising. Logically, anyone would have thought - oh noes! It's the evil forsaken with AoL knowledge trapping us here. But instead, she thinks if she's trapped, Mesanna is trapped too. Although she was right, I don't see how she came to that conclusion since she had no idea what a dreamspike was. Also, her trying to tie Perrin off with ropes in the middle of the battle was not right.

 

OT - Do the three oaths not hold in TAR?

I agree she should have immediately assumed that the Forsaken was responsable. And in assuming that the Forsaken was responsable, she should have figured the the Forsaken knew how to get out of it.

 

Not sure about you "three oarhs comment, what does that have to do with anything.

 

Back on the first subject, Once Messana captured her with the A'dam and kept asking her about the "device" she then should have realized that the Forsaken did not cause the "Dome". And that it was obviously caused by some kind of AoL device. Now, does anyone think that Eggy will grow a brain and think to ask Perrin (she knows that her was doing something in TAR at the same time)what he knows about it? So far the main characters have shown little inclination to share important information. Take Elayne, she obviously knows how to make the "Foxheads" prior to the TAR battle, but did she make sure that Eggy had some with her? No. Stupid, stupid.

"foxheads: that she can make are useless for AS though. it prevents them from channelling, so sharing them would be worse than useless.

[Mats Spare Hat]

On this topic, I found Egwene disappointing in TOM. I don't know if this has been before - her reaction to the violet sky (dreamspike) in the TAR battle was surprising. Logically, anyone would have thought - oh noes! It's the evil forsaken with AoL knowledge trapping us here. But instead, she thinks if she's trapped, Mesanna is trapped too. Although she was right, I don't see how she came to that conclusion since she had no idea what a dreamspike was. Also, her trying to tie Perrin off with ropes in the middle of the battle was not right.

 

OT - Do the three oaths not hold in TAR?

I agree she should have immediately assumed that the Forsaken was responsable. And in assuming that the Forsaken was responsable, she should have figured the the Forsaken knew how to get out of it.

 

Not sure about you "three oarhs comment, what does that have to do with anything.

 

Back on the first subject, Once Messana captured her with the A'dam and kept asking her about the "device" she then should have realized that the Forsaken did not cause the "Dome". And that it was obviously caused by some kind of AoL device. Now, does anyone think that Eggy will grow a brain and think to ask Perrin (she knows that her was doing something in TAR at the same time)what he knows about it? So far the main characters have shown little inclination to share important information. Take Elayne, she obviously knows how to make the "Foxheads" prior to the TAR battle, but did she make sure that Eggy had some with her? No. Stupid, stupid.

"foxheads: that she can make are useless for AS though. it prevents them from channelling, so sharing them would be worse than useless.

 

 

I think the foxhead's are a moot topic, with regard to the TAR battle. Mostly because, as Perrin shows, if you know what you're about in the world of dreams weaves aren't anything to shout about *blocks balefire with hand. If you want to think okay, well what if you're not Perrin? Than change your TAR outfit to accessorize with your very own dreamed-up foxhead.

 

If you can dream up an a'dam, you could dream up a foxhead. Either way, because you're in TAR it doesn't really matter. And, as the previous post mentioned, the foxheads in question prevent your own ability to channel. I'm not too sure, but I'm pretty sure alot of the ter'angreal used to take the AS into TAR require the weaving of spirit to activate. Kind of hard to channel spirit if you're using something that won't...let..you...channel? I'm Ron Burgundy?

[David Selig]

You can't take a foxhead medallion in TAR, unless you enter in the flesh, which Egwene didn't do. And the copies are actually detrimental for a channeller anyway since they don't stop powerful channelling and they prevent the wearer from channelling himself.

 

It's simpler to just imagine yourself wearing such a ter'angreal as Mat's. Why Egwene hasn't thought of that is anyone's guess.

[Durinax]

You can't take a foxhead medallion in TAR, unless you enter in the flesh, which Egwene didn't do. And the copies are actually detrimental for a channeller anyway since they don't stop powerful channelling and they prevent the wearer from channelling himself.

 

It's simpler to just imagine yourself wearing such a ter'angreal as Mat's. Why Egwene hasn't thought of that is anyone's guess.

egwene doesnt really know what it looks like or anything I believe.

[Kahlika]

I was drawing an analogy between roles that are respected because the nature of the role and not necessarilly the person in it and the type of respect the Aes Sedai expect. The Aes Sedai expect to be respected because of their role, because they are Aes Sedai, not because they have warders or live for a long time, so I just don't see why that's an issue.

 

lol...people aren't respected for their roles or titles anymore. Deeds shall always speak louder than words. That's what makes someone respect people. It does take awareness to see beyond the obvious, of course, but some folk do see past a white robe on a doctor and seek a second opinion, for instance. While others see way past the black robes and crosses on the chest and keep their young boys as far away from those "priests" as they can heh heh...

 

Of course they are. Everyone is taught to show respect to people who may or may not deserve it as people but who are entitled to it because of their position. It's very much part of how society runs. Aside from the judges already cited there's police, teachers, the military, all people who we are taught to respect when they are in their role regardless of what you think of them personally. Sure everyone doesn't want to play the game, but the pros and cons of that approach aren't really up for debate here, it's fairly irrelevant anyway, the basic point remains that people are accorded a type of respect by virtue of their roles, and additionally people in certain roles expect respect because of them. What people don't seem to want to acknowledge is that there is more than one type of respect. The respect accorded to people because of their deeds is one kind certainly, but there is also the kind accorded to people because of their role, which like it or not is just as real. And while the AS might not have any claim to one kind they do expect (and largely get) the other.

These pretend AS has role?LOL. Like what? They provide no service to any society. And nobody respects them. They fear them, like Bully. There is nothing like respect for pretend position. Respect is alloted for positions that provides service to society as and when society asks for it. Police protects from criminals, Military protects from external threat, Teachers teach whoever wants knowledge they do not horde knowledge like these pretend AS.

 

Being Aes Sedai is a role, just as being a teacher is a role, being a public servant is a role etc.

 

At the very least they provide counsellors to people in every society in the Westlands, and they take care of men who can channel. Services that are requested of them, and in the case of men who can channel expected of them by society. No matter how much people dislike them everyone who can actually comprehend the text has to admit they do do something. Nothing says they have to like how they do it, or think they're doing enough, but pretending they do nothing at all ever is just making your arguments laughable because they're so clearly incorrect on the text.

 

Also your whole 'pretend Aes Sedai' thing is fairly tired. You've been repeatedly challenged on it all of these threads you've posted in, repeatedly asked to provide some sort of backing to your claims, repeatedly asked to justify your assertions and you've never once done so (nor have you done so to the responses to the many, many posts you've made about the Crystal Throne being a binding chair), which I assume means you can't because there is nothing that actually supports you in that. Most of your arguments appear to have no substance or basis in fact at all. I realise people are being patient with you because you come across like you're about 10 years old but nobody's doing you any favours by letting you keep going at this point.

 

They are generally public servants (excepting academics at private institutions which aren't common where I am and I admittedly forgot about when posting the analogy) i.e. servants of the public, i.e. servants of all.

 

That's all Servants of All ever meant, even in the AoL Servants of All was akin to public servant, not a litteral servant.

 

Aes Sedai of the Third Age do not even qualify as public servants, simply because nobody has granted them with that power outside their jurisdiction perhaps, which would be limited to Tar Valon. I had already blown your last arguments about Cadsuane's abusive behavior concerning Tam with this simple word: jurisdiction.

 

A judge can be respected but has no power outside his jurisdiction.

 

Ditto for a scholar or an academic, except when outside their field of expertise.

 

Aes Sedai have not been granted with power to serve "anyone" and have no jurisdiction over any territory outside their own, so their title means spit and they deserve no more respect than that which they earn to themselves.

 

I don't now how you can hope to make any argument about jurisdiction stand when we have absolutely no clue what they laws are (and I suspect I'm one of the few who would find any interest in that). Without that kind of detail we can't know who has jurisdiction over what. However in the absence of laws we can look at custom and practice to be guided by that, and we can infer from what we do know of the laws.

 

Tower Law seems to be unusual in that it grants Aes Sedai jurisdiction over specific 'areas', rather than general jurisdication over a location (although they would have that as well, localised in Tar Valon). We know they claim jurisdiction over men who can channel, objects of the one power and Aes Sedai themselves under Tower Law for example, regardless of where those are found. Of course we don't know if everyone else agrees that that's acceptable, however from the lack of people telling them they can't do whatever they're doing, through to the general support and assistance they recieve in doing it, it appears that their jurisdiction over the 'areas' regardless of location is generally recognised.

Yes. Tower Law. That is Law of the Bully. No one country can lawfully make a law to be obeyed by another country. They can force it though. That is the definition of Bully. So what the Tower Law gives according to your quote.

jurisdiction over men who can channel. - This is the best of these worst Bully laws. Ideally they should have helped local authority to deal with them. If they have office in each capitol then that would be easier. But we know these pretend AS :)

jurisdiction over objects of the one power - That is call thievery and hording. LOL

lack of people telling them they can't do whatever they're doing - Because they are Bully. People in Randland cannot fight back because they do not have A'dam. Otherwise they definitely would have done it already.

 

So we agree Tower Law gives them jurisdiction over men who can channel and objects of the one power? Nothing says you have to like the laws, I certainly don't like all the laws of my country, that doesn't change the fact that they're laws though.

 

They clearly have made laws that they can and do enforce in other countries, so I'm not sure where you're getting it from that they can't. One country's laws can be enforced in another country, provided they agree to do so, and there is every indication that the other countries agree to allow the Aes Sedai to have jurisdiction over these matter within their nations.

 

As discussed repeatedly expecting them to set up offices all over the place is pointless. They don't have sufficient numbers to do it, they would be in personal danger to do so, and any political change would see all of their work immediately undone anyway. They have made themselves available and acessible in Tar Valon and they do have advisors all over the place helping local authorities. Although they're damned if they do and damned if they don't according to you. You say they should be all over the place helping, but when they're all over the place helping they're interfering bullies. You can't have it both ways.

 

It is not reasonable to expect these women to take risks you wouldn't expect of a normal person just because they happen to be able to channel. Everyone spends so much time crying over Aes Sedai infringing human rights (and unable to prove that they do), well what about theirs? And it's nice that you've finally shown your true colours and admitted you'd just rather see women who can channel treated as animals and slaves. How you can see that as a proportionate response to someone being annoying and bossy I would really love to hear.

 

On your 'people can't fight back' comment the reality of course is that some can and have chosen to say no to the Aes Sedai, who have then respected that no. And the other reality is that nobody has to 'fight back' because the Oaths leave Aes Sedai incable of fighting first. People are not petrified of Aes Sedai and just too scared to do anything about it because they don't have an A'dam option. They are choosing not to say no. They are choosing to have their counsel, their aid with men who can channel and to take advantage of their political connections and other advantages of association with Aes Sedai.

 

I'm going off your "personal risk" thing. judges can't wrap people in air(most of the time). Judges are respected because you have to prove yourself to be a judge, so the best people get in. Aes Sedai are based on your ability to channel.

 

 

Caemlyn and Cairhien would likely be two. Illian a maybe, Tear, Far Madding, and Amador definite no's. That leaves Lugard, Ebou Dar, Tanchico(sorry, said Elmora instead), Bandar Eban, and a scattering of Yellows in the Borderlands. Lugard is basicly in a state of anarchy, Ebou Dar has the Kin, Tanchico and Bandar Eban are next likely. So The 6 most likely are Caemlyn, Cairhien, Illian, Tanchico, Bandar Eban, and the Borderlands. Since this is Pre-Seanchan and Pre-Traveling, more people would be healed in greater numbers.

 

Tanchico is held by the Seanchan, Bandar Eban is right next to the Seanchan, pretty much anything down the entire West side of the map is out, they can't go there. We're talking small numbers of Aes Sedai because that's all they have, and a hospital would be out and out declaring where they are so they aren't going to take too many risks. Caemlyn, Cairhein, Illian would all be logical, Tear, Amadacia and Far Madding are also out, I'd say Murandy is also out, so that really leaves the the Borderlands. There's still a lot of travelling involved to get to any of those places from outside the capitals with all the risks involved. Although it would make more sense to simply use Traveling to take people to Tar Valon if they want Aes Sedai healing at this point rather than have hospital outposts. Of course that isn't as visible so while they may well heal more it's unlikely to change their reputation at this point.

Are you confused or you are trying to confuse us :)

We are talking about pre Travelling pre Seanchan so nothing is Held by Seanchan and Elmandarb has all valid points. These pretend AS bungled and Bullied for 3000 years. That is the crux of it.

 

The person who suggested those places gave a hypothetical scenario that they were sick in the Tanchico area *now*. My point was that if *they* got sick there even if the Aes Sedai had hospitals they would still have to travel as the hospitals wouldn't be in Seanchan areas. The overall point being that even if he Aes Sedai set up the maximum number of hospitals possible the vast majority of people would still have to travel a significant distance to get to one and be healed, so they would still need to be prepared, and able to, travel. The tangent itself comes from the discussion over the logisitics of healing, and how it would or could have occured.

 

I hope that's less confusing for you.

 

However lets say they had a hospital in Tanchico instead of one in the Western Borderlands, it's still not really going to increase the numbers of people being healed. It will make healing acessible to people in the Tanchico area who need it, but then the people in the Western Borderlands don't have access to healing. They don't have the numbers and strength to do both.

[Androl]

You can't take a foxhead medallion in TAR, unless you enter in the flesh, which Egwene didn't do. And the copies are actually detrimental for a channeller anyway since they don't stop powerful channelling and they prevent the wearer from channelling himself.

 

It's simpler to just imagine yourself wearing such a ter'angreal as Mat's. Why Egwene hasn't thought of that is anyone's guess.

egwene doesnt really know what it looks like or anything I believe.

 

The idea was for Elayne (who has had a good look at the real foxhead) to pass that on to Egwene. I know that the characters do some stupid things, but for them to use TAR to duplicate a defective foxhead would be the height of stupidity. Why would anyone sugest such a thing? But now that I have thought on it, I think that if they were going to duplicate something in TAR, it would be much better to duplicate Nynaeve's jewelry set that would do much more than just the foxhead.

 

The point is that thinking ahead like that could have saved a couple lives of those AS that were killed in the initial attack.

[Darth Krewl]

Of course they are. Everyone is taught to show respect to people who may or may not deserve it as people but who are entitled to it because of their position. It's very much part of how society runs. Aside from the judges already cited there's police, teachers, the military, all people who we are taught to respect when they are in their role regardless of what you think of them personally. Sure everyone doesn't want to play the game, but the pros and cons of that approach aren't really up for debate here, it's fairly irrelevant anyway, the basic point remains that people are accorded a type of respect by virtue of their roles, and additionally people in certain roles expect respect because of them. What people don't seem to want to acknowledge is that there is more than one type of respect. The respect accorded to people because of their deeds is one kind certainly, but there is also the kind accorded to people because of their role, which like it or not is just as real. And while the AS might not have any claim to one kind they do expect (and largely get) the other.

 

First of all, to discuss this properly, we'd have to establish the social and cultural ideological differences between countries. Because I'm certain we're not from the same country (I don't even think we share the same native tongue) and the perception of certain public officials who deserve "respect" in your homeland may not be the same as those which apply to my country. This varies from place to place, just like "respect" for the Aes Sedai is not the same in Andor as it is in Amadicia, for instance, not to mention the Seanchan continent, of course.

 

In this sense, it's clear that what Aes Sedai inspire in the people of their continent is not respect, but fear of their special powers. And they are more than happy to circumvent their oaths in order to make people suspect that, should they not do as Aes Sedai demand, they could use their occult abilities to get either retribution or what they wanted all along. Abuse of power is abuse of power everywhere. And, while it may inspire awe, that doesn't equate to respect but rather, fear, as I said before.

 

Just look at Mat and his radical change in attitude and behavior when he found out that his medallion made him safe from typical Aes Sedai bullying and how frustrated that made, well, basically every single damn Aes Sedai that was around him after that. That's exactly how everyone would behave around Aes Sedai if, like Mat, they were certain that these women couldn't do anything against them. That's pretty obvious in the books.

 

And lastly, Aes Sedai are not public officials lol! Hence, they wouldn't even deserve the respect any judge, cop, doctor, so on and so forth would. The comparison in itself is completely inappropriate.

 

I don't now how you can hope to make any argument about jurisdiction stand when we have absolutely no clue what they laws are (and I suspect I'm one of the few who would find any interest in that). Without that kind of detail we can't know who has jurisdiction over what. However in the absence of laws we can look at custom and practice to be guided by that, and we can infer from what we do know of the laws.

 

Tower Law seems to be unusual in that it grants Aes Sedai jurisdiction over specific 'areas', rather than general jurisdication over a location (although they would have that as well, localised in Tar Valon). We know they claim jurisdiction over men who can channel, objects of the one power and Aes Sedai themselves under Tower Law for example, regardless of where those are found. Of course we don't know if everyone else agrees that that's acceptable, however from the lack of people telling them they can't do whatever they're doing, through to the general support and assistance they recieve in doing it, it appears that their jurisdiction over the 'areas' regardless of location is generally recognised.

 

Tower Law doesn't apply to all the territories of the Westlands. That's an attribution that the Aes Sedai of the Third Age have just taken for granted in very arbitrary fashion. Tar Valon is no public institution by any means, but an actual independent, sovereign and autonomous state similar to the Vatican (especially in medieval times, precisely, as Jordan himself said that he used convents and such as inspiration for the Tower's laws, ways and traditions). Therefore, the White Tower has no power over any other independent, sovereign and autonomous state, unless granted to them for certain purposes, such as in Andor, for instance. And even there, Elaida's role as adviser and councilor to Queen Morgase was limited to certain parameters.

 

It's very simple to establish where the White Tower's jurisdiction starts and where it ends. Unless, you wish to take back your claim on Aes Sedai being "public servants", that is. Because if I can't hope to make my argument about jurisdiction stand, then the same principle applies to your argument about Aes Sedai being public servants. They certainly were such during the AoL, but not anymore.

[babuada]

Being Aes Sedai is a role, just as being a teacher is a role, being a public servant is a role etc.

Nope. Joining a group does not assign any role. No sovereign country asks any service from them. So, these pretend AS does not have any role. Teacher has a role as students ask for knowledge from them and they provide that public service.

 

So we agree Tower Law gives them jurisdiction over men who can channel and objects of the one power?

No they don't, except in Tower. Anywhere else their laws and jurisdictions don't hold like US laws do not hold in Canada. What these pretend AS do is Bully outside their jurisdiction.

 

 

And I won't repeat myself about Seanchan area anymore :) Seems like Kahilka is deliberately ignoring the point.

[David Selig]

You can't take a foxhead medallion in TAR, unless you enter in the flesh, which Egwene didn't do. And the copies are actually detrimental for a channeller anyway since they don't stop powerful channelling and they prevent the wearer from channelling himself.

 

It's simpler to just imagine yourself wearing such a ter'angreal as Mat's. Why Egwene hasn't thought of that is anyone's guess.

egwene doesnt really know what it looks like or anything I believe.

 

The idea was for Elayne (who has had a good look at the real foxhead) to pass that on to Egwene. I know that the characters do some stupid things, but for them to use TAR to duplicate a defective foxhead would be the height of stupidity. Why would anyone sugest such a thing? But now that I have thought on it, I think that if they were going to duplicate something in TAR, it would be much better to duplicate Nynaeve's jewelry set that would do much more than just the foxhead.

 

The point is that thinking ahead like that could have saved a couple lives of those AS that were killed in the initial attack.

But in TAR you don't need to know how something looks in the real world to create something which can serve the same function. All Egwene had to do was imagine herself wearing a ter'angreal which does what Mat's foxhead does and believe strongly enough that it works, it doesn't have to look the same. But this requires a lot of skill in TAR to create and keep in place throughout the battle and I doubt any of the Aes Sedai except Egwene could've done it.

[Kahlika]

Being Aes Sedai is a role, just as being a teacher is a role, being a public servant is a role etc.

Nope. Joining a group does not assign any role. No sovereign country asks any service from them. So, these pretend AS does not have any role. Teacher has a role as students ask for knowledge from them and they provide that public service.

 

I really don't understand you at all. Nothing says you have to like or agree with what they do but what is the point of pretending things don't exist or happen when we have them clearly documented?

 

Soverign countries ask them to negotiate treaties for them, many rulers and nobles ask them for counsel and the are asked for to aid with men who can channel. No matter how much you wish they didn't, and how much you think they get it wrong when they do, it doesn't change the fact that that's what happens. They do those things as Aes Sedai, if that's not acting in a role I'm not sure what is.

 

So we agree Tower Law gives them jurisdiction over men who can channel and objects of the one power?

No they don't, except in Tower. Anywhere else their laws and jurisdictions don't hold like US laws do not hold in Canada. What these pretend AS do is Bully outside their jurisdiction.

 

Except that we see them hold numerous times. They hold in Ebou Dar when they're allowed to take the Bowl of the Winds, they hold in the Waste when Moiraine takes objects of the power from Rhuidean, they hold in Saldea when they take Mazrim Taim, they held in either Ghealdan or Murandy (I don't think it's made clear which) when they take Logain etc etc.

 

I don't remember Teslyn being bullied into letting them take the bowl, nor do I remember the Aiel being bullied into letting them take things from Rhuidean, and people didn't seem unhappy about their assistance with Logain. So it's simply not true to say they only ever get what they want through bullying.

 

Through Tower Law they claim jurisdiction over those things regardless of where they occur geographically, and this is recognised and complied with by most nations. As I've already mentioned laws can apply outside of the geographical jurisdiction in which they're made provided the other geographical jurisdiction agrees to have them apply. This is what we see here, the Tower Law wouldn't apply if people didn't agree to have it apply (Tear doesn't for example), but it does where the other nations agree that it will, their actions in allowing the Aes Sedai to take the objects of the power etc demonstrate their consent.

 

And I won't repeat myself about Seanchan area anymore :) Seems like Kahilka is deliberately ignoring the point.

 

So I guess it was still too complex for you then. Sorry, but there's no point me breaking it down any further, it's really not that difficult a point to follow.

[Kahlika]

Of course they are. Everyone is taught to show respect to people who may or may not deserve it as people but who are entitled to it because of their position. It's very much part of how society runs. Aside from the judges already cited there's police, teachers, the military, all people who we are taught to respect when they are in their role regardless of what you think of them personally. Sure everyone doesn't want to play the game, but the pros and cons of that approach aren't really up for debate here, it's fairly irrelevant anyway, the basic point remains that people are accorded a type of respect by virtue of their roles, and additionally people in certain roles expect respect because of them. What people don't seem to want to acknowledge is that there is more than one type of respect. The respect accorded to people because of their deeds is one kind certainly, but there is also the kind accorded to people because of their role, which like it or not is just as real. And while the AS might not have any claim to one kind they do expect (and largely get) the other.

 

First of all, to discuss this properly, we'd have to establish the social and cultural ideological differences between countries. Because I'm certain we're not from the same country (I don't even think we share the same native tongue) and the perception of certain public officials who deserve "respect" in your homeland may not be the same as those which apply to my country. This varies from place to place, just like "respect" for the Aes Sedai is not the same in Andor as it is in Amadicia, for instance, not to mention the Seanchan continent, of course.

 

I don't really think that that's relevant, since my point was more that multiple different types of respect do exist, as opposed to people arguing there is only one type of respect. While people can respect individuals on their merits they can also respect the holder of a position by virtue of them holding that position, hence more than one type of respect. While that may or may not happen where you are (Mexico iirc from one of your comments, fwiw I'm in Australia) it doesn't require it to happen where you are to recognise that it is possible that it happens.

 

You're clearly not an idiot even if we do disagree, so I'm sure you're able to recognise the basic fact that there isn't only one possible type of respect. Whether the Aes Sedai are entitled to respect due to their role (which I contend is the type of respect they expect, going back to the start of this discussion, which was initially about how dare they expect respect when they all don't earn it personally) is obviously something we're going to disagree over. So moving right along to that disagreement;

 

In this sense, it's clear that what Aes Sedai inspire in the people of their continent is not respect, but fear of their special powers. And they are more than happy to circumvent their oaths in order to make people suspect that, should they not do as Aes Sedai demand, they could use their occult abilities to get either retribution or what they wanted all along. Abuse of power is abuse of power everywhere. And, while it may inspire awe, that doesn't equate to respect but rather, fear, as I said before.

 

Given that they are so expressly prohibited from using those special powers to harm anyone there really isn't much to suggest fear of having the one power used on them is a motivating factor in the Aes Sedai getting what they want. If it was it would suggest everyone is exceedingly stupid, and if that were the case why shouldn't the Aes Sedai take advantage of that? The Aes Sedai use politics as does everyone else, but they're not using any advantages there that other people don't have, in fact they're more limited since everyone else can out and out lie whenever they please.

 

I won't deny that they can be feared, certainly plenty of people fear them as witches as so on, but is that their fault or the fault of the people who believe that? I understand that people have some sort of chivalrous honourable ideal that they think the world should be run by, but the reality is that it isn't. I really don't see the abuse of power at all (except in situations that all link very directly to Elaida, and obviously they were intended to be that).

 

Just look at Mat and his radical change in attitude and behaviour when he found out that his medallion made him safe from typical Aes Sedai bullying and how frustrated that made, well, basically every single damn Aes Sedai that was around him after that. That's exactly how everyone would behave around Aes Sedai if, like Mat, they were certain that these women couldn't do anything against them. That's pretty obvious in the books.

 

Yes, let’s look at Mat. First of all I disagree he was ever afraid of the Aes Sedai. Wary, distrusting and aware they'd use the one power to stop him which if he tried to physically harm them yes, but that's not afraid.

 

He didn't actually radically change attitude and behaviour after he got his medallion (and nor did the Aes Sedai radically change theirs in response to him having the medallion, which suggests that their own conception of their authority doesn't rest solely on them being channelers). His behaviour and attitude to Aes Sedai has always been the same, he thought and behaved the same was as he did post foxhead when he was taken to the Tower for healing before he went to Rhuidean. The only real difference was that he was able to go a step further with the foxhead and physically beat one of them. I'm not sure I'm seeing how that example is helping your argument.

 

Devils advocate here, I do actually like Mat, but you did say before (in the 'discuss the whole book' thread) that you consider Cadsuane wrapping Tam in flows of air to be a gross violation of human rights. How is that a violation of human rights and Mat detaining, restraining and physically beating an Aes Sedai who can't fight back in response to verbal provocation not a violation of human rights? Personally I don't think either are, but if Cadsuane's actions are, which according to you they are, then Mat's certainly are as well. In which case according to your arguments and examples the change wrought by removing the concern that the Aes Sedai could use the power to defend themselves was that people become willing to violate the human rights of the Aes Sedai whenever they please. Please explain why that's a good thing?

 

While you're at it please explain why Aes Sedai shouldn't be able to use the power to defend themselves if they have to. If people do fear them for that then you'd have to assume those people wish to do something to them which would allow them to use the power to defend themselves, and I can't say I have all that much sympathy in that case.

 

I don't now how you can hope to make any argument about jurisdiction stand when we have absolutely no clue what they laws are (and I suspect I'm one of the few who would find any interest in that). Without that kind of detail we can't know who has jurisdiction over what. However in the absence of laws we can look at custom and practice to be guided by that, and we can infer from what we do know of the laws.

 

Tower Law seems to be unusual in that it grants Aes Sedai jurisdiction over specific 'areas', rather than general jurisdiction over a location (although they would have that as well, localised in Tar Valon). We know they claim jurisdiction over men who can channel, objects of the one power and Aes Sedai themselves under Tower Law for example, regardless of where those are found. Of course we don't know if everyone else agrees that that's acceptable, however from the lack of people telling them they can't do whatever they're doing, through to the general support and assistance they receive in doing it, it appears that their jurisdiction over the 'areas' regardless of location is generally recognised.

 

Tower Law doesn't apply to all the territories of the Westlands. That's an attribution that the Aes Sedai of the Third Age have just taken for granted in very arbitrary fashion. Tar Valon is no public institution by any means, but an actual independent, sovereign and autonomous state similar to the Vatican (especially in medieval times, precisely, as Jordan himself said that he used convents and such as inspiration for the Tower's laws, ways and traditions). Therefore, the White Tower has no power over any other independent, sovereign and autonomous state, unless granted to them for certain purposes, such as in Andor, for instance. And even there, Elaida's role as adviser and councillor to Queen Morgase was limited to certain parameters.

 

It's very simple to establish where the White Tower's jurisdiction starts and where it ends.

 

It takes two things to make a law apply outside of its physical jurisdiction, firstly there needs to be a law asserting that extended jurisdiction (which Tower Law does in relation to specific areas i.e. men who can channel, objects of the one power and Aes Sedai that we know of and potentially more that we don't), and secondly there needs to be agreement from the area in which they are claiming the law applies outside of their geographic region that they accept the extended jurisdiction. And they do have that agreement for the most part, yes there are places that they don't (Tear, Amadicia), but for the most part there is agreement to let their jurisdiction extend beyond Tar Valon's physical boundary in relation to a few specific areas and as such it does.

 

Similarly the Vatican could enter into treaties extending some of it's rules to wherever other states were willing to have them extended to and they would apply. It's unlikely and uncommon in our world of course. However we aren't talking about our world and there's every sign that it has occurred here. Firstly there is never anyone telling them they don't have the authority in the areas they claim where they claim it, secondly they receive assistance from the state in relation to pursuing matters related to these areas, thirdly there are some states who we do know have said no to the extended jurisdiction and we can note the differences between their operations and actions in those states versus how they operate and act in others. While this is all circumstantial it makes a very clear picture that other states accept the Tower Law's claims to jurisdiction relating to those specific areas.

[bysomy]

I really don't understand you at all. Nothing says you have to like or agree with what they do but what is the point of pretending things don't exist or happen when we have them clearly documented?

 

Soverign countries ask them to negotiate treaties for them, many rulers and nobles ask them for counsel and the are asked for to aid with men who can channel. No matter how much you wish they didn't, and how much you think they get it wrong when they do, it doesn't change the fact that that's what happens. They do those things as Aes Sedai, if that's not acting in a role I'm not sure what is.

 

The Borderlands regularaly pay tribute to the WT. It is stated in the book that the tribute isn't needed anymore, but they still have the borderlands pay it. And yet the Green ajah sits in the tower twidling their thumbs, instead of fighting trollocs as in their ajah mission statement. Nations ask these things of them and they provide them yes, but what of the other ajahs? The WT supposibly is occupied by 1000ish AS. Thats not counting AS who are abroad. I'd think there should be about 100-150 AS to capture male channelers. Maybe 10-30 for treaties, another 10 as advisors. About 50 more for (sigh) Hall, Ajah heads, amyrlin and keeper. Another 70-80 for novice/accepted teaching. That leaves about 760-680 sisters left in the tower, pursueing their own interests and soaking up the WT's gold. I'd call that unexceptable in ANY institution that receives donations.

Except that we see them hold numerous times. They hold in Ebou Dar when they're allowed to take the Bowl of the Winds, they hold in the Waste when Moiraine takes objects of the power from Rhuidean, they hold in Saldea when they take Mazrim Taim, they held in either Ghealdan or Murandy (I don't think it's made clear which) when they take Logain etc etc.

 

I don't remember Teslyn being bullied into letting them take the bowl, nor do I remember the Aiel being bullied into letting them take things from Rhuidean, and people didn't seem unhappy about their assistance with Logain. So it's simply not true to say they only ever get what they want through bullying.

 

Through Tower Law they claim jurisdiction over those things regardless of where they occur geographically, and this is recognised and complied with by most nations. As I've already mentioned laws can apply outside of the geographical jurisdiction in which they're made provided the other geographical jurisdiction agrees to have them apply. This is what we see here, the Tower Law wouldn't apply if people didn't agree to have it apply (Tear doesn't for example), but it does where the other nations agree that it will, their actions in allowing the Aes Sedai to take the objects of the power etc demonstrate their consent.

 

That is, if the rulers know everything thats happening everywhere in their kingdom at any given time. The fact is, anywhere we see AS interact with anyone other than other AS, they try to take control.(Im looking at you, Joline, Cadsuane) The objects of the One power thing is just ridiculous. If a Spanish ship bearing Gold, property of the Spanish government crashed and sunk in a hurricane in 1655, and it was found today in the Carribean, would Spain demand that all the gold be brought to it at once?

So I guess it was still too complex for you then. Sorry, but there's no point me breaking it down any further, it's really not that difficult a point to follow.

The scenario was in the 3000 or so years before Seanchan and traveling. They would undoubtably(seeing how smart and wise all AS are) be positioned so that they could serve the densest population while presenting the shortest traveling distance to them. 100 miles is a lot different than 500. More people would go because they are closer. The borderlands would not need many healers, as they have a whole significantly large ajah, the greens, that is devoted tho fighting shadowspawn.(this is in a perfect world where greens are actually doing something useful)

[babuada]

Soverign countries ask them to negotiate treaties for them

We do not have a single example. We have plenty of example of These WT witches bullying rulers to form treaties or just kidnap rulers, etc.

 

many rulers and nobles ask them for counsel and the are asked for to aid with men who can channel.

We really do not see anybody asking them. We saw them forcefully go into sovereign countries and kidnap men. We also saw them floating false Dragons :)) Sometimes people do not mind them taking tyrant dragons, but nobody begged them for there service. You can say even a Bully does a few good things from time to time and common people may be thankful for a few of their actions. That does not make them any less bully.

 

This is what we see here, the Tower Law wouldn't apply if people didn't agree to have it apply (Tear doesn't for example), but it does where the other nations agree that it will, their actions in allowing the Aes Sedai to take the objects of the power etc demonstrate their consent.

This shows Some rulers fear WT more and less spine to resist. Nowhere it is mentioned that any country has law to follow tower law.

[babuada]

And I won't repeat myself about Seanchan area anymore :) Seems like Kahilka is deliberately ignoring the point.

 

So I guess it was still too complex for you then. Sorry, but there's no point me breaking it down any further, it's really not that difficult a point to follow.

 

Luckers: Removed. Rude.

[babuada]

I really don't understand you at all. Nothing says you have to like or agree with what they do but what is the point of pretending things don't exist or happen when we have them clearly documented?

 

Soverign countries ask them to negotiate treaties for them, many rulers and nobles ask them for counsel and the are asked for to aid with men who can channel. No matter how much you wish they didn't, and how much you think they get it wrong when they do, it doesn't change the fact that that's what happens. They do those things as Aes Sedai, if that's not acting in a role I'm not sure what is.

 

The Borderlands regularaly pay tribute to the WT. It is stated in the book that the tribute isn't needed anymore, but they still have the borderlands pay it. And yet the Green ajah sits in the tower twidling their thumbs, instead of fighting trollocs as in their ajah mission statement. Nations ask these things of them and they provide them yes, but what of the other ajahs? The WT supposibly is occupied by 1000ish AS. Thats not counting AS who are abroad. I'd think there should be about 100-150 AS to capture male channelers. Maybe 10-30 for treaties, another 10 as advisors. About 50 more for (sigh) Hall, Ajah heads, amyrlin and keeper. Another 70-80 for novice/accepted teaching. That leaves about 760-680 sisters left in the tower, pursueing their own interests and soaking up the WT's gold. I'd call that unexceptable in ANY institution that receives donations.

Except when this is an institution of Bullies. A Bully expects the payment just because she is a bully. Otherwise she will beat you (mind that not harm you, beating is for your own good) or should I say she will cause a little inconvenience to you.

About the count - 100-150 to capture male channelers is overestimate. If they were not busy plotting to plant false draggons then they shouldn't need more than 50.

10-30 for treaties, kidnapping rulers etc. seems to be too small a number. This role is directly related to power politics of nation. At no time we see that at least one representative from each Ajah is playing this role at each powerhouse of every nation. So, with 9 nations to count and each having more or less 5 major and 10 minor powerhouses on average, I would say 250 - 300 total. Good thing is they also cover the spy network of each Ajah. I would agree for rest of your count. We still have 500-600 sisters in tower doing nothing.

 

Except that we see them hold numerous times. They hold in Ebou Dar when they're allowed to take the Bowl of the Winds, they hold in the Waste when Moiraine takes objects of the power from Rhuidean, they hold in Saldea when they take Mazrim Taim, they held in either Ghealdan or Murandy (I don't think it's made clear which) when they take Logain etc etc.

 

I don't remember Teslyn being bullied into letting them take the bowl, nor do I remember the Aiel being bullied into letting them take things from Rhuidean, and people didn't seem unhappy about their assistance with Logain. So it's simply not true to say they only ever get what they want through bullying.

 

Through Tower Law they claim jurisdiction over those things regardless of where they occur geographically, and this is recognised and complied with by most nations. As I've already mentioned laws can apply outside of the geographical jurisdiction in which they're made provided the other geographical jurisdiction agrees to have them apply. This is what we see here, the Tower Law wouldn't apply if people didn't agree to have it apply (Tear doesn't for example), but it does where the other nations agree that it will, their actions in allowing the Aes Sedai to take the objects of the power etc demonstrate their consent.

 

That is, if the rulers know everything thats happening everywhere in their kingdom at any given time. The fact is, anywhere we see AS interact with anyone other than other AS, they try to take control.(Im looking at you, Joline, Cadsuane) The objects of the One power thing is just ridiculous. If a Spanish ship bearing Gold, property of the Spanish government crashed and sunk in a hurricane in 1655, and it was found today in the Carribean, would Spain demand that all the gold be brought to it at once?

If the gold is of Spanish gov then atleast they have a valid claim. The objects of One Power were made by Aes Sedai for general public. These are public property. Just because these WT witches have power does not make them rightful owner of those. It is like Nazis confiscating properties of Jews. Because one has power she becomes rightful owner.

 

So I guess it was still too complex for you then. Sorry, but there's no point me breaking it down any further, it's really not that difficult a point to follow.

The scenario was in the 3000 or so years before Seanchan and traveling. They would undoubtably(seeing how smart and wise all AS are) be positioned so that they could serve the densest population while presenting the shortest traveling distance to them. 100 miles is a lot different than 500. More people would go because they are closer. The borderlands would not need many healers, as they have a whole significantly large ajah, the greens, that is devoted tho fighting shadowspawn.(this is in a perfect world where greens are actually doing something useful)

Kahilka is trying hard to play WT pretend AS. lol:)

[Darth Krewl]

I don't really think that that's relevant, since my point was more that multiple different types of respect do exist, as opposed to people arguing there is only one type of respect. While people can respect individuals on their merits they can also respect the holder of a position by virtue of them holding that position, hence more than one type of respect. While that may or may not happen where you are (Mexico iirc from one of your comments, fwiw I'm in Australia) it doesn't require it to happen where you are to recognise that it is possible that it happens.

 

Agreed. But in this case, since Aes Sedai are not public officials, then I would say that the comparison between them and judges, cops, etc. is quite inaccurate.

 

You're clearly not an idiot even if we do disagree, so I'm sure you're able to recognise the basic fact that there isn't only one possible type of respect. Whether the Aes Sedai are entitled to respect due to their role (which I contend is the type of respect they expect, going back to the start of this discussion, which was initially about how dare they expect respect when they all don't earn it personally) is obviously something we're going to disagree over. So moving right along to that disagreement;

 

Well, IDK if I'm an idiot or not hah hah! But I do know that we can only agree to disagree, concerning the respect Aes Sedai may/may not deserve, indeed.

 

In this sense, it's clear that what Aes Sedai inspire in the people of their continent is not respect, but fear of their special powers. And they are more than happy to circumvent their oaths in order to make people suspect that, should they not do as Aes Sedai demand, they could use their occult abilities to get either retribution or what they wanted all along. Abuse of power is abuse of power everywhere. And, while it may inspire awe, that doesn't equate to respect but rather, fear, as I said before.

 

Given that they are so expressly prohibited from using those special powers to harm anyone there really isn't much to suggest fear of having the one power used on them is a motivating factor in the Aes Sedai getting what they want. If it was it would suggest everyone is exceedingly stupid, and if that were the case why shouldn't the Aes Sedai take advantage of that? The Aes Sedai use politics as does everyone else, but they're not using any advantages there that other people don't have, in fact they're more limited since everyone else can out and out lie whenever they please.

 

Well, like I said in the quote I've highlighted in bold above, Aes Sedai may not use their powers to inflict damage on others, but then again, they don't really go out of their way to discourage anyone from believing that, do they now? Not to mention that they can always use their Warders as another way to, again, circumvent their oaths. Just like Joline tried to do with Mat. And I don't suggest anyone is stupid, but in a world where only a few can read and write, I believe it's pretty safe to assume just how ignorant the majority of the population would be. Hence, I seriously doubt that most Westlanders would even know the three oaths taken by Aes Sedai. I believe that saying, "the truth an Aes Sedai tells you isn't often the truth you will hear" (paraphrasing) applies perfectly well in this case.

 

I won't deny that they can be feared, certainly plenty of people fear them as witches as so on, but is that their fault or the fault of the people who believe that? I understand that people have some sort of chivalrous honourable ideal that they think the world should be run by, but the reality is that it isn't. I really don't see the abuse of power at all (except in situations that all link very directly to Elaida, and obviously they were intended to be that).

 

The fault for this falls exclusively on the shoulders of the Aes Sedai, as they haven't done anything to improve on their public image as perceived by the majority. And I'm not even referring to Elaida (I rarely discuss her, because I know how people tend to use her as a cop out to defend ;-)). I'm talking about the way the majority of the Emond's Fielders felt about Moiraine, since that was the way most of us were introduced to this bunch of wannabe Aes Sedai of the Third Age.

 

Just look at Mat and his radical change in attitude and behaviour when he found out that his medallion made him safe from typical Aes Sedai bullying and how frustrated that made, well, basically every single damn Aes Sedai that was around him after that. That's exactly how everyone would behave around Aes Sedai if, like Mat, they were certain that these women couldn't do anything against them. That's pretty obvious in the books.

 

Yes, let’s look at Mat. First of all I disagree he was ever afraid of the Aes Sedai. Wary, distrusting and aware they'd use the one power to stop him which if he tried to physically harm them yes, but that's not afraid.

 

Just for the record, I never said Mat was afraid of any Aes Sedai, as the quote above clearly proves. I only said that his attitude changed when he got the fox medallion because no Aes Sedai could bully him into doing their bidding.

 

He didn't actually radically change attitude and behaviour after he got his medallion (and nor did the Aes Sedai radically change theirs in response to him having the medallion, which suggests that their own conception of their authority doesn't rest solely on them being channelers). His behaviour and attitude to Aes Sedai has always been the same, he thought and behaved the same was as he did post foxhead when he was taken to the Tower for healing before he went to Rhuidean. The only real difference was that he was able to go a step further with the foxhead and physically beat one of them. I'm not sure I'm seeing how that example is helping your argument.

 

Excuse me, but those 2 old sisters Adeleas and the other one (can't remember her name) spent a good amount of time hurling things at Mat with the Power, just to see why he wasn't affected by it. If the poor kid had taken it off once, chances are one of those two old hags would've cracked his skull open with a stone or something. Now, that is a radical change in attitude, because they went from an assuming posture (thinking that their precious power could work on anyone) to becoming curious about their abilities not working with the Cauthon kid. And Mat was more than glad to let them try and fail time and again. That also constitutes a major change in attitude and behavior. So, I guess this is subject to perception and understanding of what does constitute major or radical changes in attitude and behavior.

 

Devils advocate here, I do actually like Mat, but you did say before (in the 'discuss the whole book' thread) that you consider Cadsuane wrapping Tam in flows of air to be a gross violation of human rights. How is that a violation of human rights and Mat detaining, restraining and physically beating an Aes Sedai who can't fight back in response to verbal provocation not a violation of human rights? Personally I don't think either are, but if Cadsuane's actions are, which according to you they are, then Mat's certainly are as well. In which case according to your arguments and examples the change wrought by removing the concern that the Aes Sedai could use the power to defend themselves was that people become willing to violate the human rights of the Aes Sedai whenever they please. Please explain why that's a good thing?

 

First, you say I'm not an idiot and then, you try to treat me like one? lol! First off, I've never discussed Mat's actions in that particular thread, because I was discussing or debating Aes Sedai actions. But, if you want to know my opinion about that then sure, Mat was abusive as well. Though, he hadn't gone seeking for those women to ask for their help and they were certainly not defenseless, since their Warders were there with them. Completely different scenarios, IMO, that don't even deserve being mentioned in the same sentence together.

 

While you're at it please explain why Aes Sedai shouldn't be able to use the power to defend themselves if they have to. If people do fear them for that then you'd have to assume those people wish to do something to them which would allow them to use the power to defend themselves, and I can't say I have all that much sympathy in that case.

 

With all due respect, this has got nothing to do with the subject at hand, which is if Aes Sedai deserve respect or not. I've never said that Aes Sedai don't have the right to use every mean at their disposal to defend themselves (the way we all do) and I have never assumed anything, because I'm all about facts, not speculation. So, I'm not even gonna bother going there. IMO, this thread has already been derailed enough as it is (we should keep in mind that it's about Egwene, not the Aes Sedai as a whole).

 

It takes two things to make a law apply outside of its physical jurisdiction, firstly there needs to be a law asserting that extended jurisdiction (which Tower Law does in relation to specific areas i.e. men who can channel, objects of the one power and Aes Sedai that we know of and potentially more that we don't), and secondly there needs to be agreement from the area in which they are claiming the law applies outside of their geographic region that they accept the extended jurisdiction. And they do have that agreement for the most part, yes there are places that they don't (Tear, Amadicia), but for the most part there is agreement to let their jurisdiction extend beyond Tar Valon's physical boundary in relation to a few specific areas and as such it does.

 

Only for certain specific purposes. As Morgase's adviser, for instance, Elaida couldn't dispatch justice in Andor. That was the Queen's duty, regardless on how much her AS adviser may/may not influence her behind closed doors. Far as state and social affairs are concerned, not even a "good queen's man" such as that good old farmer, Almen Bunt, would suffer Aes Sedai intervention in their country. Aes Sedai may be seen under a better light in Andor or Shienar, for instance, but I assure you that the people would go up in arms in any nation in the Westlands, if Tar Valon overextended the duties granted to them by the rulers. Hence, Tower Law does not apply outside its jurisdiction, except for Tower business and special concessions.

 

Similarly the Vatican could enter into treaties extending some of it's rules to wherever other states were willing to have them extended to and they would apply. It's unlikely and uncommon in our world of course. However we aren't talking about our world and there's every sign that it has occurred here. Firstly there is never anyone telling them they don't have the authority in the areas they claim where they claim it, secondly they receive assistance from the state in relation to pursuing matters related to these areas, thirdly there are some states who we do know have said no to the extended jurisdiction and we can note the differences between their operations and actions in those states versus how they operate and act in others. While this is all circumstantial it makes a very clear picture that other states accept the Tower Law's claims to jurisdiction relating to those specific areas.

 

Are you talking about modern day Vatican? Or, about medieval times Vatican? Because that's where Jordan drew his inspiration from; ancient, not recent history and back then, the Vatican had its nose down everyone's throats in Europe. As for Tower Law applying, again, either you're thinking me an idiot or we're not communicating clearly. Either way, I'm a practical person, Kahlika. I'm not trying to dissect every single move made by an Aes Sedai that may or may not constitute an actual breach. I've just been saying all along that Aes Sedai are not public servants of any kind in their continent and, if they were, they'd be terrible at it, simply because all they do, they do it with the best interests of the White Tower at heart and not those of the people. That's precisely the reason why nobody likes to see AS interfere with the affairs of their country; because they never do what is best for the people...unless it also is in the best interests of the Tower.

 

Seems pretty clear to me, actually.

[babuada]

[ I've just been saying all along that Aes Sedai are not public servants of any kind in their continent and, if they were, they'd be terrible at it, simply because all they do, they do it with the best interests of the White Tower at heart and not those of the people. That's precisely the reason why nobody likes to see AS interfere with the affairs of their country; because they never do what is best for the people...unless it also is in the best interests of the Tower.

 

Seems pretty clear to me, actually.

Thanks Darth Krewl. This is the essence of White Tower witches. Remember Mo took a oath to Rand to specifically state that she will not keep the interest of white tower before all anymore.