Plot Devices and Sammael

[The One Who Knows]

Okay, so like Jordan is a serious writer. And he uses things like foreshadowing, dramatic irony, plot devices and all that good stuff, right? And he doesn't put anything into a story unless it absolutely necessary. I mean, look at TFoH where Mat kills Couladin(spelling?). So, what was the purpose of not allowing Rand to see Sammael being consumed by Mashadar? The only reason Rand didn't see this happen was because he had to kill an Aiel woman--who had been lost in Shadar Logoth for no useful reason in terms of moving the story along--to save the woman from a fate worse than death, being consumed by Mashadar. Also, after this Rand never got over his fear of killing women, so what was the purpose? I think, RJ used the killing of the woman as a plot device to prevent Rand from seeing the death of Sammael--which we know he died, RJ has said it too many times for it not to be true--which I think RJ will use in the next and final book as plot device to have Rand attack an ally or an innocent in the belief that they are Sammael reincarnated. I believe Rand will learn that Forsaken can be reincarnated from Semirhage. Also, If any living Forsaken knew that Rand didn't see Sammael die they could definitely use that to make Rand kill a once-trusted ally or someone else on the side of the Light, right? Sort of sounds like a plan of Moridin. He was there that night, at Shadar Logoth. And in the next book, PoD, we hear Moridin talking about how he controls both sides of the War. Maybe that was what Moridin meant when he was talking about Sha'rah, that he could use that knowledge to make Rand do something very disastrous to the forces of the Light. And don't forget, in KoD, it was Moridin who told the other Forsaken that someone was posing as Sammael and moving Shadowspawn about. Maybe he did this to throw the other Forsaken off of his trail. But, of course, this is all speculation. Any thoughts??? and um... On your mark, get set, FLAME!!!

[Luckers]

I think you've picked up on a number of key things, though i do not think it will be the red-herring (by which i mean i dont think Rand will be set on a trusted ally) you are describing. What i mean is that the points you've listed may lead to the uncovering of Taim who is using Sammael's sigil, and, to my mind, is the most likely culprit for the fake Sammy.

[moroten]

Do you really believe Taim has risen so high among the followers of the shadow that he can order 100k Trollocs throught he ways and attack Rand. And that doesnt even fit since he didnt know where Rand was.

 

Remember, he really wanted Logain to tell him where he could find Rand.

 

But of course, the trolloc movement Moridin mentions can be a totally different one.

[CrazyMike]

When Sammael was consumed by Mashadar; wasn't his soul consumed as well and therefore he can not be re-born or better said implanted in the body of another person ,,, and ,,, doesn't the body that the Shadow use's to re-implant one of his followers souls in have to belong to one of the Shadows Followers anyway,,, otherwise ,,, why wouldn't the Shadow just go ahead and kidnap the souls of other key people and replace them with the Souls of his Faithful Servants / not necesarily Forsaken

[CrazyMike]

Hasn't Rand Poisoned Most of the Gates so that Trollocs die real quick when they come thru them

[Cybertrolloc]

Rand just trapped the one in SL. Whether Karldin Manfor and Loial hit any of the others when they couldn't convince or find Ogier to watch their gates...we don't know.

 

Plus balefire effects with Sammael's death, it's pretty tangled.

 

Taim as Sammael, don't know if Sammael could be as cool and collected as Taim, especially around Rand. Sammael was running just about every Shadow plot we know of and leading a war personally while Taim was building the Black Tower. Very doubtful, I'd believe Belal first (he used the same arms as we see on Taim's door also, and wasn't balefired by someone of Rand's strength).

[Kadere]

But Be'lal was balefired, and it's been confermed by the DO that Be'lal will not be coming back. While Sammael was not balefired, he died from Mashadar, and it's not really clear whether or not the DO could get a soul back from that.

 

Personally I think he could.

[moroten]

Rand only set a trap at SL but he sent Loial and an Ashaman (dont remember his name) dont find the ones Loial knew about, and they did find but not all of them.

 

As I remember you dont know if Sammael was killed by Rand huge Balefire or if it was the mashadar.

[Guest Majsju]

Robert Jordan: Mashadar killed Sammael. Sammael is toast!

 

http://edition.cnn.com/COMMUNITY/transcripts/2000/12/12/jordan/index.html

[Luckers]

I wasn't suggesting that Taim is Sammael, i was suggesting that Taim used Sammael as a persona. We have seen that he seems to be attempting to emulate the Forsaken to certain extents--he's taken up several of their mannerisms 'so-called Aiel', 'Let the Lord of Chaos rule', Moridin's colour scheme and Sammael's sigil. Likely a couple of other things we dont know of.

 

Him choosing Sammael makes a lot of sense. He knew for sure that Sammael is dead, but likely knew from his contact with the Forsaken that they had no proof. I'm guessing that when he ordered the attack he was opperating outside orders, and didn't want it to be tied to him, but assuming the image of a living Forsaken was too dangerous.

 

Do you really believe Taim has risen so high among the followers of the shadow that he can order 100k Trollocs throught he ways and attack Rand.

 

Yes, I do. Such an attack requires the mark of the Chosen, and i think Taim has been raised by Shaidar Haren to the level of Chosen. We know such a thing is possible, given that Alviarin recieved something of a lesser mark from him. Essentially the mark you would put on a pet, yet despite that like in essense to the Chosen Mark indicating SH COULD do that if he so chose. And if Alviarin after her numerous failures could get even a weak mark, then Taim after his numerous successes could get a proper one.

 

Some people raise the question of Taim being a third ager and that the Dark One disdains third age channelers, but with the Forsaken dwindling, fragmented, and traitorous I'm not sure he would have much choice. And if my theory about Taim having been trained by Ishy and sent to train channelers to serve as dreadlords in TG (something we know he must have done during the Trolloc Wars) then it becomes even more of a moot point.

 

And that doesnt even fit since he didnt know where Rand was.

 

Remember, he really wanted Logain to tell him where he could find Rand.

 

Indeed, which merely indicates that several days before the attack Taim was desperately trying to locate Rand. Concider: All of Logain's men knew were Rand was, as did the bound Aes Sedai. They spent several days in the Black Tower seeing to the dispersal of the Asha'men, during which Taim was trying to find out Rand's location.

 

My guess is that the Aes Sedai told him--we know they've directly set out to cause dissension between the two factions. But it may just have easily have been a slip up on behalf of one of the men to someone he thought was a friend. Alternatively if Taim is at all smart he would have placed a plant amongst Logain's men. The simple fact is that the liklyhood of it having remained a secret is slim.

 

When Sammael was consumed by Mashadar; wasn't his soul consumed as well

 

Perhaps--its uncertain whether Mashadar consumes peoples souls, though i personally think it does, others have been quick to tell me in the past that it is never said that it does. My response is sually that we have seen Shaidar Logoth have an effect on peoples souls in the tainting of them and in Mordeth, but there is no direct evidence for Mashadar.

 

Even if that isn't the case, its unlikely Sammael has been recycled though. The time frame of the other recyclings suggest it takes longer then the time that has passed since his death, and there is some question on whether or not Rand's use of balefire, which resulted in a shift in the time stream that led to Sammael's death, had any effect on the Dark One's ability to recycle him.

[chuckievi]

To bring up a point from the original post, I am not sure that Semi would have the knowledge that the DO is recycling souls. We've seen many times in the past that the Forsaken don't know who a recycled person is. They don't know who Moridin is, or the Gars, or Cyndane. So unless I missed something (which is possible) I don't know that Semi would be able to reveal that piece of knowledge to Rand.... as I don't think she has it.

[Luckers]

Actually they do... at least they've guessed. Graendal was openly speculating witht he other Forsaken on whether Cyndane was Lanfear, and concluded she was not, which indicates that the knowledge that recycling is possible is wide-spread amongst the Forsaken for her to have even concidered the possibility. That Moridin was Ishy seems well known also.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yes, although balefire did not strike Sammael directly, it was involved in his death, in that because Rand balefired that whole section of the building Sammael stood on, the balcony ceased to exist backward in time, and so Mashadar consumed Sammael before Rand could have seen it occur. This is also why the Dark One would have a harder time transmigrating Sammael even if he wanted to ... the timing effect with Sammael's death was the same, because his death occurred in objective time before it was caused in objective time.

[The One Who Knows]

What if Taim is already a forsaken? He could easily be Demandred(spellign?). There are many theories speculating that. Some have said that Taim could even be Be'lal--there is a good theory, I think to prove this at http://wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=1326&Category=TaimLogain

 

But besides those points I don't think Taim has risen that far in darkfriend standards. Alviarian was marked, certainly, but she is no where near Forsaken level. Sure she is more than likely above all dark friends at the moment, but, however, I think she is more like Padan Fain before he went to SL. Plus we've seen no evidence that supports the idea that Taim, also, was marked. Jordan always uses foreshadowing and inserts enough clues in his writing that anyone could figure out things beforehand if they knew where to look. I have seen no evidence that would lead us readers to Taim receiving a mark--not that it isn't possible--. And, even if he isn't one of the Forsaken and hasn't been marked, he would definitely be a dreadlord but, again, that still doesn't give him enough authority to move so many shadowspawn.

 

And Sammael if definitely gone for good. No but's about it, whatsoever.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Taim cannot be Be'lal, since Be'lal was killed by balefire, and is thus unretrievable. Also, Jordan has explicitly stated that Taim is not Demandred.

 

I personally think Taim is the only modern Chosen. I 99.999 percent sure he is a Darkfriend. And if he is a Darkfriend, he is a Dreadlord by definition, since Dreadlords are simply Darkfriends who can channel (yes, that means all the Black Ajah are also considered Dreadlords.)

[Luckers]

Agreed. And there is quite a lot of foreshadow for Taim being raised look again to the way he has been emulating the forsaken and so forth.

[moroten]

And that doesnt even fit since he didnt know where Rand was.

 

Remember, he really wanted Logain to tell him where he could find Rand.

 

Indeed, which merely indicates that several days before the attack Taim was desperately trying to locate Rand. Concider: All of Logain's men knew were Rand was, as did the bound Aes Sedai. They spent several days in the Black Tower seeing to the dispersal of the Asha'men, during which Taim was trying to find out Rand's location.

 

 

Touché

[The One Who Knows]

Jordan never said that Demandred wasn't Taim. The question for his blog or question of the week was "Did Demandred ever pose as Taim?" which Jordan replied "No, Demandred never posed as Taim. That was for people who look closely at wordings." I can't find the site of where it was said but that's as close I can get to the real thing by memory. The word pose is very important to understand how Jordan said RAFO in so many other words. And I just now found the question that proves that Alviarans mark is different than the mark found on the Forsaken "Question:

 

Is the mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran the same as that the Forsaken received from the Dark One? If so, is she now a Forsaken, or some sort of lesser Chosen?

 

Robert Jordan Answers:

 

The mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran was not the same as that given to the Forsaken, though it shares one function: Shadowspawn will recognize her as belonging to the Dark One. They will not obey her as they will the Forsaken, however, but she doesn't have to worry about one trying to kill her, either. She is not any sort of lesser Chosen. You might think of it more like the tattoo some people get put inside the ear of their dog, an identification so others will know who the dog belongs to as soon as they see it." And wouldn't make more since that since Taim can't move so many trollocs since a above average dreadlord couldn't nearly move so many Trollocs that it had to a forsaken--not Shaidar Hairan(spelling?) him and Moridin are allys I guess you could say--. And wouldn't make since that since Graendal taught everything Sammael everything he knows--it's in a PoD--she would be the most likely canidate to pose as Sammael. It can't be Taimandred since he spoke up during that meeting in KoD and that is way to obvious for Jordan. Yeah I'm changin my theory a little but whatever...

[Gentled Ben]

Well, Jordan DID say that we haven't seen Demandred's on-screen persona yet though, which would still kill the Taimendred idea.

[Guest Majsju]

And if that's not enough, this quote from D*Con 05 is also adding to the massive amount of evidence against taimandred.

 

Emma: Was Taimandred a deliberate ruse to lead your readers astray, or were you surprised (by the all of the theories connecting Taim to Demandred)?

 

Jordan: I was surprised…but I wasn’t going to disabuse you of it for a while, I like to watch you squirm.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Also, since Mazrim Taim was born before the Forsaken were loose, the only way Demandred could be in his place now would be to "pose" as Mazrim Taim. But if you're splitting hairs THAT finely, no one here is going to convince you.

[Luckers]

Mazrim Taim appeared in Saldaea and was met by people before Demandred was free. The only way he could have been Taim after that is to assume his identity and 'pose' at him.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Hey, I said that!

[Luckers]

Well... I'm prettier then you. So there!

[RobertAlexWillis]

Its true ... <sigh> I'm not very pretty ...