Discuss The Forsaken

[Luckers]

Discuss them NOW!

[analyticalkeys]

Mesaana was a pretty big disappointment. She showed up for a few seconds and got put in a permanent drool state.

[MierinWru]

Mesaana was a pretty big disappointment. She showed up for a few seconds and got put in a permanent drool state.

 

Demandred was a pretty big disappointment. He didn't show up. As usual.

 

Why are the Forsaken still part of the books? Somebody remind me?

[Seaine Sedai]

Mesaana was a pretty big disappointment. She showed up for a few seconds and got put in a permanent drool state.

 

Demandred was a pretty big disappointment. He didn't show up. As usual.

 

Why are the Forsaken still part of the books? Somebody remind me?

 

 

Yeah, the Forsaken have had some very anti-climactic endings lately. It really is disappointing still having them in the story, or in Demandred's case, not at all.

[analyticalkeys]

Well, I'm still holding out on Demandred playing an amazing role in the next book...

[WhiskyJack]

Forsaken were hardly "intimidating" during AOL, powerful or not. Powerful Aes Sedai were dime a dozen back then. 3000 years of story telling has made forsaken larger than life sod their real self are not living up to the standard one might expect from them.

[MierinWru]

 

Yeah, the Forsaken have had some very anti-climactic endings lately. It really is disappointing still having them in the story, or in Demandred's case, not at all.

 

Well, to be honest it's just too late now. He had 13 books to actually do something cool but never really showed up. The next book will be focused on defeating the Dark Lord himself I suppose. No matter what Demandred will end up doing he'll still be a minor character in the series cause he's been pretty much absent for 13 books.

 

The same goes for Semirhage sadly. She could've been such an awesome character. She had some great scenes. It's a shame she was only around as a major character for like 2 books. :(

 

I give Sanderson credit for 2 things, though:

1. Graendal actually doesn't seem as boring as she used to be during Jordan's reign.

2. That last scene with Lanfear just... wow... she's my favourite Forsaken and this promises so much. It also makes me afraid, though cause it might just ruin the character. Weird feeling and I'll have to wait another year to find out.

 

Anybody else notice she didn't complain at Rand calling her "Mierin"?

[Sventity]

I agree that the recent Forsaken plots have been less than overwhelming. One thing I enjoy about Sanderson's style is that something major happens in just about every chapter, where that was never the case in previous installments. However, the fact that that happens means we lose much of the setup we were getting in previous books along with lots of fluff. It's both a blessing and a curse it seems. Instead of getting several chapters of preparation and lead-up that have Mesaana conniving and Black Ajah plots, we get a semi-climax that is interspersed between two other climaxes, Perrin/Gawyn. The constant climaxes keep the book interesting, but each feels less like a payoff when we have so many in succession. Let's face it though, I'd rather have Sanderson than nothing at all. There's so much to tell, I can't think of a better way to do it than this without going for several more books.

[Mr. Micawber]

The thing that bothers me is that the Big Guy is

 

a. An Eldritch Abomination of All Evil

b. A God

c. Incorporeal

 

Thus, you can't really fight the Dark One mano-a-mano. And this ain't the Belgariad with the freaking Prophecies duking it out.

 

Demandred has been built up to be Lews Therin's rival. And the principal Shadow general. And the guy who joined the Shadow for one reason alone:

 

Removing that girl-stealing, glory-stealing, arrogant son-of-a-rhymes-with-witch from existence.

 

Frankly, I can't think of anyone better to be the Sword and Shield of the Shadow when it comes to putting up dukes.

 

Edit:

 

And from a fan service perspective, there is literally nothing out there that has taken up as much time, created as much speculation, and divided the Fandom as stridently as "who in the bloody flaming hell is Demandred?"

[MierinWru]

One thing I enjoy about Sanderson's style is that something major happens in just about every chapter, where that was never the case in previous installments.  The constant climaxes keep the book interesting, but each feels less like a payoff when we have so many in succession.  

I know the feeling but to be fair I don't think Sanderson had a choice. There were so many loose ends he had to tie up before the last battle could begin... it's insane. He's been solving tons of stuff that had been unresolved for quite a number of books and there's still enough content left for the last book. Nothing he can do about it. I suppose the problem is that Jordan didn't bother finishing any of the plot lines at all during his last 3-4 books.

 

This is why I think that Jordan could never have finished Wheel of Time with just "one more book" (which was his plan). Sanderson is already giving us a very condensed version full of climaxes and it's still filling three books. I actually wouldn't even mind if he decided to split the last book again. But maybe that's just my "The Series is over soon"-angst.

 

 

 

Thus, you can't really fight the Dark One mano-a-mano. And this ain't the Belgariad with the freaking Prophecies duking it out.

 

Demandred has been built up to be Lews Therin's rival. And the principal Shadow general. And the guy who joined the Shadow for one reason alone:

 

 

I don't think Rand will be able to fight the Dark One head-on either. Which is why the lack of any strong and dangerous villains left in the books worries me a bit. I'm not really looking forward to a last chapter that consists of descriptions of how Rand channels the one power to close the Bore again. 

 

Regarding Demandred... I don't know... the guy never seemed very interesting to me. He was built up to be the main villain, the general of the shadow? Well, duh... how about he starts actually doing something then? He's been in the shadows for 13 books now which didn't really lead to me thinking he's badass.

 

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Well, they haven't been very intimidating when they show up here.

 

The boys:

 

Balthalmel: Killed by a 3000 yr old plant. Resurrected, then betrayed by Graendal and balefired by Rand. Managed to kill a couple of Aes Sedai, give Egwene some headaches and free Moghedian.

Aginor: Killed by Rand when he had literally no clue what he was doing, resurrected and killed by a Black Ajah BY MISTAKE. As far as I can tell, did nothing at all.

Asmodean: Captured by Rand, when he knew very little, taught Rand a lot, wiped out by Graendal.

Be'lal: Balefired by Moiraine while he was playing around with Rand.

Rahvin: Actually did something by basically destroying the monarchy in Andor before Rand balefired his ass. His defense was pretty effective - except for the balefire.

Ishamael: Actually wounded Rand, plus of course did a ton of damage to the light and made the freaking seanchan possible. Still, couldn't kill Rand.

Moridin: Hasn't died, but HAS managed to get himself tangled up with Rand.

Sammael: Managed to get eaten by Mashadaar. Took over Illian, but didn't seem to do an awful lot of damage

Demandred: One assumes has done SOMETHING. One of he or Moridin is behind a lot of the stuff at the BT.

 

The girls:

 

Moghedian: Managed to get captured by a 1/2 trained wilder who couldn't channel at will... in Tel'aran'rhiod, which she thought she was an expert in and in which Nynaeve wasn't all that great. She DID manage to get Brigitte thrown into the world, and get the Sad Bracelets out into the world.

Semirhage: Corrupted the return, took Rand's hand, almost managed to turn him to the darkside before getting balefired out of existence.

Lanfear: Insane jealousy managed to get her trapped by the Eelfinn/Aelfinn and slowly drained, then reborn, but mindtrapped. along the way she... I dunno, got Rand trained? Seemed a little scary?

Mesaana: Made a blithering idiot, but at LEAST she took on Egwene, who's kind of scary-ass now, as well as being the Amyrlin and a dreamwalker. Deposed Suian, probably got Rand locked up, nearly destroyed the White Tower. Of course, was probably at least partially responsible for Egwene being Amyrlin in the first place.

Graendal: Pretty effective at taking out the Forsaken. Er. Really, what the hell did she do? Got Hopper killed?

 

You'd expect... well, more.

[analyticalkeys]

Well, they haven't been very intimidating when they show up here.

 

The boys:

 

Balthalmel: Killed by a 3000 yr old plant. Resurrected, then betrayed by Graendal and balefired by Rand. Managed to kill a couple of Aes Sedai, give Egwene some headaches and free Moghedian.

Aginor: Killed by Rand when he had literally no clue what he was doing, resurrected and killed by a Black Ajah BY MISTAKE. As far as I can tell, did nothing at all.

Asmodean: Captured by Rand, when he knew very little, taught Rand a lot, wiped out by Graendal.

Be'lal: Balefired by Moiraine while he was playing around with Rand.

Rahvin: Actually did something by basically destroying the monarchy in Andor before Rand balefired his ass. His defense was pretty effective - except for the balefire.

Ishamael: Actually wounded Rand, plus of course did a ton of damage to the light and made the freaking seanchan possible. Still, couldn't kill Rand.

Moridin: Hasn't died, but HAS managed to get himself tangled up with Rand.

Sammael: Managed to get eaten by Mashadaar. Took over Illian, but didn't seem to do an awful lot of damage

Demandred: One assumes has done SOMETHING. One of he or Moridin is behind a lot of the stuff at the BT.

 

The girls:

 

Moghedian: Managed to get captured by a 1/2 trained wilder who couldn't channel at will... in Tel'aran'rhiod, which she thought she was an expert in and in which Nynaeve wasn't all that great. She DID manage to get Brigitte thrown into the world, and get the Sad Bracelets out into the world.

Semirhage: Corrupted the return, took Rand's hand, almost managed to turn him to the darkside before getting balefired out of existence.

Lanfear: Insane jealousy managed to get her trapped by the Eelfinn/Aelfinn and slowly drained, then reborn, but mindtrapped. along the way she... I dunno, got Rand trained? Seemed a little scary?

Mesaana: Made a blithering idiot, but at LEAST she took on Egwene, who's kind of scary-ass now, as well as being the Amyrlin and a dreamwalker. Deposed Suian, probably got Rand locked up, nearly destroyed the White Tower. Of course, was probably at least partially responsible for Egwene being Amyrlin in the first place.

Graendal: Pretty effective at taking out the Forsaken. Er. Really, what the hell did she do? Got Hopper killed?

 

You'd expect... well, more.

 

Why did you list Ishamael and Moridin as separate? Can you remind me of Aginor's second death because it must have been so insignificant that I really don't remember what happened

[MierinWru]

You'd expect... well, more.

 

Well, with Jordan's (and Sanderson's) obsession with not letting any major (good) character die I suppose there really wasn't much left for the Forsaken to do.

 

 

The more I think of it the more it bugs me that nobody ever dies. I know the ta'veren can't die since they're needed but the rest? Meh, disappointing. 13 books and almost no sense of danger left. 

 

 

[Crael123]

Ishmael has done the most. Like Trolloc Wars, Breaking of the Covenant of nations, Seanchan, Fall of Artur Hawking war of 100 years... thats a lot

 

Mesaana made rand hate aes sedai, locked his ass in a box which made him go insane, see mesaana fail or success thread.

 

Semirhage... disapointed

 

Graendal has been awesome i think.

 

Lanfear is sort of a loose cannon.

[WolfDream222]

You'd expect... well, more.

 

Well, with Jordan's (and Sanderson's) obsession with not letting any major (good) character die I suppose there really wasn't much left for the Forsaken to do.

 

Exactly. If they can't kill off any main characters (and we know Jordan would never allow that), what are the Forsaken supposed to do? Stand around and look menacing? They're pretty good at that, at least.

[Sventity]

Well, they haven't been very intimidating when they show up here.

 

The boys:

 

Balthalmel: Killed by a 3000 yr old plant. Resurrected, then betrayed by Graendal and balefired by Rand. Managed to kill a couple of Aes Sedai, give Egwene some headaches and free Moghedian.

Aginor: Killed by Rand when he had literally no clue what he was doing, resurrected and killed by a Black Ajah BY MISTAKE. As far as I can tell, did nothing at all.

Asmodean: Captured by Rand, when he knew very little, taught Rand a lot, wiped out by Graendal.

Be'lal: Balefired by Moiraine while he was playing around with Rand.

Rahvin: Actually did something by basically destroying the monarchy in Andor before Rand balefired his ass. His defense was pretty effective - except for the balefire.

Ishamael: Actually wounded Rand, plus of course did a ton of damage to the light and made the freaking seanchan possible. Still, couldn't kill Rand.

Moridin: Hasn't died, but HAS managed to get himself tangled up with Rand.

Sammael: Managed to get eaten by Mashadaar. Took over Illian, but didn't seem to do an awful lot of damage

Demandred: One assumes has done SOMETHING. One of he or Moridin is behind a lot of the stuff at the BT.

 

The girls:

 

Moghedian: Managed to get captured by a 1/2 trained wilder who couldn't channel at will... in Tel'aran'rhiod, which she thought she was an expert in and in which Nynaeve wasn't all that great. She DID manage to get Brigitte thrown into the world, and get the Sad Bracelets out into the world.

Semirhage: Corrupted the return, took Rand's hand, almost managed to turn him to the darkside before getting balefired out of existence.

Lanfear: Insane jealousy managed to get her trapped by the Eelfinn/Aelfinn and slowly drained, then reborn, but mindtrapped. along the way she... I dunno, got Rand trained? Seemed a little scary?

Mesaana: Made a blithering idiot, but at LEAST she took on Egwene, who's kind of scary-ass now, as well as being the Amyrlin and a dreamwalker. Deposed Suian, probably got Rand locked up, nearly destroyed the White Tower. Of course, was probably at least partially responsible for Egwene being Amyrlin in the first place.

Graendal: Pretty effective at taking out the Forsaken. Er. Really, what the hell did she do? Got Hopper killed?

 

You'd expect... well, more.

 

When you lay it out like that, it does seem rather pathetic for most of them, however you could really do the same with many of the heroes in the story too if you only laid out their big accomplishments. But since we spend most of our time with them and so few with POV's of the Forsaken, their actual influence over events is often hearsay or implied rather than outright shown to us until they're defeated. Not to mention half of the time we spend with them is when they're trying to defeat each other, which actually subverts the Shadow more than it seems to spread it. I actually like the fact that they are just people--arrogant, selfish, easily-manipulated bullies. It makes them more interesting to read than if they were all-powerful Demons from the past. They're almost devices that are each in their own way preparing our good guys for the battle against the big boy himself. In that way, they seem just as much pawns to the Pattern as anyone else, keeping the Wheel turning as there can be no Light without Shadow, and there would be no victory against the DO without the lessons learned from battling his minions.

[Crael123]

I am shocked we have not seen Demandred this book!!! I have still to read it tho... i am sad.

 

He will be a disappointment i think. unless he is Murandy, BT, Taim, Moridin, and Shara and weird Red Aeil at the same time.

[Crael123]

Well, they haven't been very intimidating when they show up here.

 

The boys:

 

Balthalmel: Killed by a 3000 yr old plant. Resurrected, then betrayed by Graendal and balefired by Rand. Managed to kill a couple of Aes Sedai, give Egwene some headaches and free Moghedian.

Aginor: Killed by Rand when he had literally no clue what he was doing, resurrected and killed by a Black Ajah BY MISTAKE. As far as I can tell, did nothing at all.

Asmodean: Captured by Rand, when he knew very little, taught Rand a lot, wiped out by Graendal.

Be'lal: Balefired by Moiraine while he was playing around with Rand.

Rahvin: Actually did something by basically destroying the monarchy in Andor before Rand balefired his ass. His defense was pretty effective - except for the balefire.

Ishamael: Actually wounded Rand, plus of course did a ton of damage to the light and made the freaking seanchan possible. Still, couldn't kill Rand.

Moridin: Hasn't died, but HAS managed to get himself tangled up with Rand.

Sammael: Managed to get eaten by Mashadaar. Took over Illian, but didn't seem to do an awful lot of damage

Demandred: One assumes has done SOMETHING. One of he or Moridin is behind a lot of the stuff at the BT.

 

The girls:

 

Moghedian: Managed to get captured by a 1/2 trained wilder who couldn't channel at will... in Tel'aran'rhiod, which she thought she was an expert in and in which Nynaeve wasn't all that great. She DID manage to get Brigitte thrown into the world, and get the Sad Bracelets out into the world.

Semirhage: Corrupted the return, took Rand's hand, almost managed to turn him to the darkside before getting balefired out of existence.

Lanfear: Insane jealousy managed to get her trapped by the Eelfinn/Aelfinn and slowly drained, then reborn, but mindtrapped. along the way she... I dunno, got Rand trained? Seemed a little scary?

Mesaana: Made a blithering idiot, but at LEAST she took on Egwene, who's kind of scary-ass now, as well as being the Amyrlin and a dreamwalker. Deposed Suian, probably got Rand locked up, nearly destroyed the White Tower. Of course, was probably at least partially responsible for Egwene being Amyrlin in the first place.

Graendal: Pretty effective at taking out the Forsaken. Er. Really, what the hell did she do? Got Hopper killed?

 

You'd expect... well, more.

 

When you lay it out like that, it does seem rather pathetic for most of them, however you could really do the same with many of the heroes in the story too if you only laid out their big accomplishments. But since we spend most of our time with them and so few with POV's of the Forsaken, their actual influence over events is often hearsay or implied rather than outright shown to us until they're defeated. Not to mention half of the time we spend with them is when they're trying to defeat each other, which actually subverts the Shadow more than it seems to spread it. I actually like the fact that they are just people--arrogant, selfish, easily-manipulated bullies. It makes them more interesting to read than if they were all-powerful Demons from the past. They're almost devices that are each in their own way preparing our good guys for the battle against the big boy himself. In that way, they seem just as much pawns to the Pattern as anyone else, keeping the Wheel turning as there can be no Light without Shadow, and there would be no victory against the DO without the lessons learned from battling his minions.

 

Exactly. They are subjected to the will of the pattern just like everybody else. like if Ishmael hadnt messed with Artur Hawkwing and done all of his stuff then the dragon would never have been reborn

[bpbajardi3]

The thing that bothers me is that the Big Guy is

 

a. An Eldritch Abomination of All Evil

b. A God

c. Incorporeal

 

Thus, you can't really fight the Dark One mano-a-mano. And this ain't the Belgariad with the freaking Prophecies duking it out.

 

Demandred has been built up to be Lews Therin's rival. And the principal Shadow general. And the guy who joined the Shadow for one reason alone:

 

Removing that girl-stealing, glory-stealing, arrogant son-of-a-rhymes-with-witch from existence.

 

Frankly, I can't think of anyone better to be the Sword and Shield of the Shadow when it comes to putting up dukes.

 

Edit:

 

And from a fan service perspective, there is literally nothing out there that has taken up as much time, created as much speculation, and divided the Fandom as stridently as "who in the bloody flaming hell is Demandred?"

 

Agreed! As far as the other Forsaken go...I really don't care. It is time to throw down!

[AutomatedTeller]

Well, they haven't been very intimidating when they show up here.

 

The boys:

 

Balthalmel: Killed by a 3000 yr old plant. Resurrected, then betrayed by Graendal and balefired by Rand. Managed to kill a couple of Aes Sedai, give Egwene some headaches and free Moghedian.

Aginor: Killed by Rand when he had literally no clue what he was doing, resurrected and killed by a Black Ajah BY MISTAKE. As far as I can tell, did nothing at all.

Asmodean: Captured by Rand, when he knew very little, taught Rand a lot, wiped out by Graendal.

Be'lal: Balefired by Moiraine while he was playing around with Rand.

Rahvin: Actually did something by basically destroying the monarchy in Andor before Rand balefired his ass. His defense was pretty effective - except for the balefire.

Ishamael: Actually wounded Rand, plus of course did a ton of damage to the light and made the freaking seanchan possible. Still, couldn't kill Rand.

Moridin: Hasn't died, but HAS managed to get himself tangled up with Rand.

Sammael: Managed to get eaten by Mashadaar. Took over Illian, but didn't seem to do an awful lot of damage

Demandred: One assumes has done SOMETHING. One of he or Moridin is behind a lot of the stuff at the BT.

 

The girls:

 

Moghedian: Managed to get captured by a 1/2 trained wilder who couldn't channel at will... in Tel'aran'rhiod, which she thought she was an expert in and in which Nynaeve wasn't all that great. She DID manage to get Brigitte thrown into the world, and get the Sad Bracelets out into the world.

Semirhage: Corrupted the return, took Rand's hand, almost managed to turn him to the darkside before getting balefired out of existence.

Lanfear: Insane jealousy managed to get her trapped by the Eelfinn/Aelfinn and slowly drained, then reborn, but mindtrapped. along the way she... I dunno, got Rand trained? Seemed a little scary?

Mesaana: Made a blithering idiot, but at LEAST she took on Egwene, who's kind of scary-ass now, as well as being the Amyrlin and a dreamwalker. Deposed Suian, probably got Rand locked up, nearly destroyed the White Tower. Of course, was probably at least partially responsible for Egwene being Amyrlin in the first place.

Graendal: Pretty effective at taking out the Forsaken. Er. Really, what the hell did she do? Got Hopper killed?

 

You'd expect... well, more.

 

Why did you list Ishamael and Moridin as separate? Can you remind me of Aginor's second death because it must have been so insignificant that I really don't remember what happened

 

I listed Ishy and Moridin separately cause Moridin is still kicking around. Really, Moridin deserves better than what I said - he's pretty scary, especially since he seems to be the only one who understands what's going on.

 

Suppose I could have listed Cyndane separately, but honestly - all I remember her doing was being ineffective at the big battle.

 

Aginor was Corlen Darshiva, the Asha'man, who Elza took out at the Battle of the Cleansing of the Source. I remember her thinking "I can't kill a Chosen, but this stupid Asha'man is fair game...."

[JDJ]

Mesaana was a pretty big disappointment. She showed up for a few seconds and got put in a permanent drool state.

 

Demandred was a pretty big disappointment. He didn't show up. As usual.

 

Why are the Forsaken still part of the books? Somebody remind me?

 

Apparently he did show up quite a bit, we just do not know who his alter ego is ;)

[bpbajardi3]

One thing I enjoy about Sanderson's style is that something major happens in just about every chapter, where that was never the case in previous installments.  The constant climaxes keep the book interesting, but each feels less like a payoff when we have so many in succession.  

I know the feeling but to be fair I don't think Sanderson had a choice. There were so many loose ends he had to tie up before the last battle could begin... it's insane. He's been solving tons of stuff that had been unresolved for quite a number of books and there's still enough content left for the last book. Nothing he can do about it. I suppose the problem is that Jordan didn't bother finishing any of the plot lines at all during his last 3-4 books.

 

This is why I think that Jordan could never have finished Wheel of Time with just "one more book" (which was his plan). Sanderson is already giving us a very condensed version full of climaxes and it's still filling three books. I actually wouldn't even mind if he decided to split the last book again. But maybe that's just my "The Series is over soon"-angst.

 

 

 

Thus, you can't really fight the Dark One mano-a-mano. And this ain't the Belgariad with the freaking Prophecies duking it out.

 

Demandred has been built up to be Lews Therin's rival. And the principal Shadow general. And the guy who joined the Shadow for one reason alone:

 

 

I don't think Rand will be able to fight the Dark One head-on either. Which is why the lack of any strong and dangerous villains left in the books worries me a bit. I'm not really looking forward to a last chapter that consists of descriptions of how Rand channels the one power to close the Bore again. 

 

Regarding Demandred... I don't know... the guy never seemed very interesting to me. He was built up to be the main villain, the general of the shadow? Well, duh... how about he starts actually doing something then? He's been in the shadows for 13 books now which didn't really lead to me thinking he's badass.

 

He has survived through 13 books..that is pretty impressive!

[MierinWru]

Demandred was a pretty big disappointment. He didn't show up. As usual.

 

Why are the Forsaken still part of the books? Somebody remind me?

 

Apparently he did show up quite a bit, we just do not know who his alter ego is ;)

 

Will I get banned for mentioning "Bela" now?

[AutomatedTeller]

I dunno - a lot of the time, they seemed to be the warm up acts, you know?

 

Asmodean I get - Rand HAD to have a way to learn this stuff. Moghedian, sure, for much the same reason.

 

Lanfear was pretty active, but had this jealousy issue.

 

And I missed the Sammael dispersal of the Shaido in his summary.

 

I think the one that really gets me is Aginor/Osan'gar... cause he didn't really do anything effective, other than healing Rand at one point. And Balthamel/Aran'gar wasn't all that great, though I did miss that he took out Eben Hopwil in his summary.

 

And that the 3 forsaken who had solid power bases (Rahvin, Sammael and Be'lal) didn't really do anything with them.

[Bookworm]

Sammael didn't get eaten by mashadar. Recall the meeting with the 11 thrones? He survived.

 

Also, Sammael was cited for leading the trollocs through the ways. He gets credit for attacking Rand at the farmhouse with 100k shadowspawn.

 

Sammael and Demanderad are the generals among the forsaken. They led the armies in the age of legends, and lead them now. Who else has been out of contact for a while, yet hundreds of thousands of trollocs have been guided through the ways - even lately to attack Caemlyn?