The thing I think Sanderson has taken the most liberty with

[Diederichos]

So I've read The Way of Kings and my earlier criticism on BS changes a bit having something only he wrote at hand. He seems to me to be a much better storyteller than he is a prose writer, which is alright especially given how young he is and his prolific output level. I think the big problem with that is that I don't give him the credit for being a good storyteller, he can't be, it's not his story to tell after all and he's working off notes. I've also realized that we're and well truly stuck with his modern way of writing, those who have read it might perhaps agree if they remember the last Wit PoV, and his modern words that crop up. It's sad because that just takes you out of the story every time you notice it.

 

I also understood why Perrin is so well done in this book, in some ways Perrin is the closest to being a 'BS character', the brooding, the hyper-internal examination of the world and thinking on actions(and I do mean hyper). I mean, is that not essentially what Dalinar and Kaladin are doing in that book? Which brings me to my last point, I know RG set out to plot out the major story arcs for Mat and Perrin and the rest of ToG, but a lot of the filler work was purely BS', is that why there is so much Perrin material? I'm thinking that we're going to see a lot more Perrin filler because he might be the character BS feels most comfortable with.

 

For what it's worth, I did enjoy tWoK and I will be eagerly awaiting the next one.

[randsc]

Slavery and all the kinds of depravity that descend from it is worse than simple murder. A murder victim dies but once. A slave dies inside every day. Look at how the damane are described; they no longer think of themselves as people. They, even in their own eyes, are things, tools to be used, abused, or thrown away at their master's pleasure. They have been brainwashed into believing that is all they deserve.

 

That's just sick and wrong on every level.

 

That's crazy, i would rather be a slave then be dead, at least then you have a chance to live and change your circumstances, no matter how slim.

Funny, I'd rather kill than be a slave.

 

"I had rather be a thief than a pauper. I had rather be a murderer than a slave. I dont want to be either; but if you force the alternative on me, then, by Heaven, I'll choose the braver and more moral one."

[randsc]

As for the thing he has taken the most liberty with:

 

Trollocs and Fades have somehow changed from something terrifying into cannon fodder.

 

In EoTW, one Fade and a single fist of trollocs was enough to send a powerful Aes Sedai and the greatest swordsman of the age into headlong flight.

 

A small number of trollocs wreaked havoc in the Stone.

 

Now, no one even cares about trollocs unless their numbers are measured in 6 digits.

 

Granted, this started with Jordan. But it has gotten worse.

[David Selig]

The Trollocs became a joke before Sanderson took over the series. They were only scary back in EOTW.

 

The Two Rivers farmers with zero battle training somehow beat an army of Trollocs which was about equal in numbers to them, maybe even bigger, in TSR.

 

Rand and his handful of channellers decimating 100 000 of them in like 10 minutes in KoD was the last straw for me.

[smileyman]

So I've read The Way of Kings and my earlier criticism on BS changes a bit having something only he wrote at hand. He seems to me to be a much better storyteller than he is a prose writer, which is alright especially given how young he is and his prolific output level. I think the big problem with that is that I don't give him the credit for being a good storyteller, he can't be, it's not his story to tell after all and he's working off notes. I've also realized that we're and well truly stuck with his modern way of writing, those who have read it might perhaps agree if they remember the last Wit PoV, and his modern words that crop up. It's sad because that just takes you out of the story every time you notice it.

 

I also understood why Perrin is so well done in this book, in some ways Perrin is the closest to being a 'BS character', the brooding, the hyper-internal examination of the world and thinking on actions(and I do mean hyper). I mean, is that not essentially what Dalinar and Kaladin are doing in that book? Which brings me to my last point, I know RG set out to plot out the major story arcs for Mat and Perrin and the rest of ToG, but a lot of the filler work was purely BS', is that why there is so much Perrin material? I'm thinking that we're going to see a lot more Perrin filler because he might be the character BS feels most comfortable with.

 

For what it's worth, I did enjoy tWoK and I will be eagerly awaiting the next one.

 

Brandon has said that his favorite character before being picked to write the series was Perrin, since he felt the most like Perrin. I disagree about Mat's character in ToM. I thought Mat was slightly "off" in TGS, but I think he was done to perfection here, and done consistently with other POV's.

 

I also agree with you about the story teller vs the prose thing. Brandon doesn't write good prose, but he can move a story along. I do think he's getting better at the prose (there are a couple of scenes from TWOK that come to mind), but it's the one thing that his writing lacks. Given how prolific he is I don't doubt that he'll be able to overcome that.

[Diederichos]

Slavery and all the kinds of depravity that descend from it is worse than simple murder. A murder victim dies but once. A slave dies inside every day. Look at how the damane are described; they no longer think of themselves as people. They, even in their own eyes, are things, tools to be used, abused, or thrown away at their master's pleasure. They have been brainwashed into believing that is all they deserve.

 

That's just sick and wrong on every level.

 

That's crazy, i would rather be a slave then be dead, at least then you have a chance to live and change your circumstances, no matter how slim.

Funny, I'd rather kill than be a slave.

 

"I had rather be a thief than a pauper. I had rather be a murderer than a slave. I dont want to be either; but if you force the alternative on me, then, by Heaven, I'll choose the braver and more moral one."

 

I would have to disagree with that, I know you're quoting, but better to go hungry than to make another go hungry, and so on and so forth.

[Talmanes]

You know I think ion any of those situations you can't really know how you would act until you've been there. Desperate times lead people to desperate measures.

[Zodd]

The thing I feel Sanderson has taken the most liberty with is Elayne. Every appearance of her, save for Aludra's 'dragons' demonstration, seemed entirely too OC for her, even while pregnant. During the Succession and early rule I actually felt like she was a ruling Queen. In ToM I feel she's more like turkey stuffed in a dress and a tiara. All things political seemed deligated to Dylin.

 

And Don't Get Me Started About the MOODSWINGS. they almost seemed like added verbage thrown into the mix to make sure you KNEW she was with child.

I thought she was EXACTLY that of a puffed up child-Queen. Something she herself had dreaded she'd become.

 

I'm not saying any of the actions are far out of character, they all seemed like something Elayne could/would do. This is RJ's story after all, just with a different director. But the description of those actions and her internal monologue don't seem to fit. Maybe it's just Sanderson's voice I'm not used to hearing.

"I had rather be a thief than a pauper. I had rather be a murderer than a slave. I dont want to be either; but if you force the alternative on me, then, by Heaven, I'll choose the braver and more moral one."

btw, mind if I use this in my sig?

[mcbernier]

As far as the "slapstick" goes: yeah, that was a bit overdone with the backstories, but it wasn't slapstick, which is almost completely based in physical (and physically violent) comedy. "Farce" is a more accurate label for that scene.

 

The scene with the rabbit was slapstick.

 

Uh, no. Not that either. An implied pun, yes (think "blind luck"). Slapstick, no. The clowns in Valan Luca's show beating each other with pig-bladders? That's slapstick. So was Nynaeve and Siuan going at each other in tFoh, after Nynaeve's very trying day in Salidar.

 

So I went and looked it up. Quiet day at work etc.

 

slap•stick

 

–noun

1. broad comedy characterized by boisterous action, as the throwing of pies in actors' faces, mugging, and obvious farcical situations and jokes.

 

–adjective

3. using, or marked by the use of, broad farce and horseplay: a slapstick motion picture.

 

Taken from dictionary.com since I'm blocked from virtually everything else at work.

 

Slapstick could, under that definition be used as an adjective to describe the rabbit scene. I think it would fall under the noun as well, it was a physical scene (the boisterous action, the throwing the knife) with a farcical result (hitting the rabbit) exaggerated for comic effect.

 

You're trying to narrow the term down to only referring to the original actions that the term evolved out of (Commedia clowns hitting each other with sticks). While that's one aspect of slapstick comedy as it's still practiced it's not the only kind, and it's not accurate to suggest that only physical humour can be present for something to be slapstick. Slapstick can play with/on other types of humour in a physical way and still be slapstick, even though the other type of humour is clearly a component. Farce is even mentioned as having a role in the definition.

 

It's not a terrible way to describe how new!Mat's humour is written really. RJ relied heavily on irony with Mat's humour, most of it coming from the contrasts between his internal monologues and his actions, and while he was a physical character his actions themselves weren't ridiculously exaggerated for comedic effect, there was a bit of sarcasm in there as well. BS writes him more 'goofy' to borrow a term someone else on this thread used. His humour is more physical, his actions and circumstances are exaggerated for effect, the irony is gone, the sarcasm isn't really there (the one instance I can think of in which it was there in this book is also the one instance we've had it confirmed that RJ wrote).

 

Although to be fair Mat changed a lot when RJ wrote him too. Mat in books 1-3 was closer to the Mat we have today. His humour was very juvenile, pranks, bad ideas ('lets go into Shadar Logoth and touch stuff!'), general childish misbehaviour etc. It was moving away from that by book 3, and by the time he made it to Rhuidean he'd developed into the Mat everyone thinks of as Mat. Maybe that's why BS's Mat is so irritating. He's regressed as a character, gone from one of the characters who really changed and grew (and not just grew, but grew into a character people liked more) as the series went on to being uncomfortably similar to how he was at the start of the books, when a lot of people were basically irritated by him.

 

Very astute observations. I completely concur. It was the development of the irony in Mat--the incongruity between how he appeared to others and the inner dialogue--which really made him a fantastic character, made him grow from the one-dimension irritation he was in the beginning. RJ used this tension between the outer and the inner to great effect: for humor, but also for the creation of tension and expectation for how other characters would react to Mat. Wonderful stuff. Now, to be fair to Sanderson, irony is hard to capture (doing it well), and he's trying to capture an already established ironical tone. Mat has got to be the hardest character to capture in the whole series. So I think Sanderson's done a good job (excluding the letter he wrote, and a few other things), but as a fan, I can still say I'm disappointed with how Mat has turned out.

 

A related point: from glancing through the board, I know a lot of people really liked the ToG segment. I did not. I was disturbed by Mat's inner dialogue. There seemed, to me, to be too much of it, and a bit out of place. There's a time to zoom into a character's thoughts and motivations, and there's a time to back away, to let the actions and the enormity of the situation speak. He lost his eye. His eye! But everyone seemed to accept this with a shrug and a "let's soldier on" mentality. Strange. It was almost as if the ironical presentation (the inner vs the outer) was improperly used, to create an adverse effect (my opinion). Maybe, as some people suggested, Robert Jordan wrote the ToG segment. Let's say for the sake of argument that he did. It doesn't mean it was well written. And it certainly doesn't mean that Jordan wouldn't have changed it, edited it, again and again, to get it the way he would have wanted it. If he wrote it, I highly doubt he considered it the final draft for those scenes.

[Pastoral]

It seems that the difficult tasks BS had to accomplish in the last two books were to resolve the intra- and inter-character conflicts before the Last Battle. Rand had to integrate Lews and truly be the Dragon, Perrin had to accept his inner wolf, Mat had to fully embrace luck, etc.; and the various story lines of the characters had to converge as well - thank the Light for Traveling! The only wonder is that BS managed to accomplish so much in two books, with one more to go. My guess is RJ would have ended up with 5 or 6 more books, rather than 3 (which would have been wonderful, of course) - unless the quickening of the pace at the end was also part of his vision for the story.

[randsc]

The thing I feel Sanderson has taken the most liberty with is Elayne. Every appearance of her, save for Aludra's 'dragons' demonstration, seemed entirely too OC for her, even while pregnant. During the Succession and early rule I actually felt like she was a ruling Queen. In ToM I feel she's more like turkey stuffed in a dress and a tiara. All things political seemed deligated to Dylin.

 

And Don't Get Me Started About the MOODSWINGS. they almost seemed like added verbage thrown into the mix to make sure you KNEW she was with child.

I thought she was EXACTLY that of a puffed up child-Queen. Something she herself had dreaded she'd become.

 

I'm not saying any of the actions are far out of character, they all seemed like something Elayne could/would do. This is RJ's story after all, just with a different director. But the description of those actions and her internal monologue don't seem to fit. Maybe it's just Sanderson's voice I'm not used to hearing.

"I had rather be a thief than a pauper. I had rather be a murderer than a slave. I dont want to be either; but if you force the alternative on me, then, by Heaven, I'll choose the braver and more moral one."

btw, mind if I use this in my sig?

 

It's fine with me, and George Bernard Shaw is dead, and so unlikely to object.

[dshirey09]

I think we have to assume RJ wanted the people to start agreeing, although I think that they way it was done was written by BS. In my mind, there is no way that the "good" guys could possibly win the Last Battle if they continued to bicker like they have been for the past ~10 books.. All of the changes to the character, especially Rand's change, and people's changes to Rand, were completely necessary for the hopeful success of the Last Battle. What are the chances that they could win if they show up to Tarwin's Gap, refusing to fight with X person because he/she did Y 5 books ago, and they are still angry about it? And if Rand himself hadn't changed (although I think everyone agrees that they saw this change coming, and RJ most definitely wrote it himself), then he would have just shown up to the Last Battle, seen everyone arguing, got really mad and just Balefire'd half the people he thought were annoying.

 

Plain and simple, the good guys had no chance if they continued to question everything each other did. It was absolutely necessary.

[Durfee]

My thoughts are that many people are just laying criticism (and searching for differences) onto BS that otherwise would have gone to RJ simply because they want to preserve their memory of the "pure" WoT books in as favored a light as possible.

 

So, while you're reading and you have doubts over whether or not something was intentional on RJ's part or a liberty taken by BS, always assume RJ had a hand in it. I think you'll find yourself seeing much fewer flaws/"liberties" than you had previously.

 

 

Durfee

[Talmanes]

Honestly, I notice differences and things that are written in more BS style than RJ style, but I still think the books are great, and part of what makes them that way is the differences. We all had complaints and things we would change about the first books, and we all will about the ones now. It's just the way it is.

[justincrb]

While I know it has been said a thousand times, Sanderson seems to have the most difficulty writing for characters like Mat and Elayne —characters that have a juvenile streak. Sanderson seems to overstate those traits.

 

I just wanted to point out how good he is at writing the other side of the spectrum, namely Perrin. Sanderson's passages involving Perrin are some of the best in the series. I know its kinda blasphemous to say so, but I think I prefer Sanderson's Perrin to RJ's. Before I found the Perrin POV sections nearly impossible to read, until I finally just started skipping them entirely. Sanderson's Perrin really shines, and is a joy to read. Maybe its just the way he's matured in ToM.

[Thews Lerin]

Overall I feel like Brandon Sanderson has done as good a job as he could do with WoT. On the whole he has kept true to what I'm sure RJ left, and to what he could take from the first 11 books. However, it seems to me that he has changed at least one thing in a way that Robert Jordan would not have wanted, and is not in the spirit of WoT. That is, the characters are becoming all two reasonable. Now this is pleasant, and something we all probably longed for as we read WoT. Characters that listen to each other, characters that can change each others minds, characters that do the things we as readers want them to do. Before the characters were always very frustrating, and I'm sure you all felt it. The biggest problem with making all your characters reasonable and doing and saying what the reader wants is that they all become different flavors of the same person. They start to lose some of their individuality. I find it somewhat ironic that a lot of the time when Sanderson makes a character do or say something they would not have done in the past, he makes reference to it. Either a character will be surprised by the other characters new found maturity, or the character doing the nice and reasonable thing will have an inner monologue of how they've changed, and maybe were wrong before.

 

Now, I like to think some of this is put down to character development, but what book/series have you ever read where all the characters begin developing in the same way at the same exact time? My problem is that it feels more like Sanderson's will than the logical progression from books 1-11. I don't expect many of you to find a problem with this, since it's probably what you wanted and have longed to see. I expect there to be some examples, of no, they do still have their differences and make the wrong decisions. I'd argue tat these are false issues though, ones that are created and dealt with quickly as the character with the issue soon sees the light.

 

I think a lot of that is just the way BS writes. If you read his other books, his characters tend to be fairly nice. I'm not sure if being a Mormon has anything to do with it, or if it's just Brandon's personality, but that's how he writes. Read Warbreaker and you may be frustrated at how the main god (Lightsong?) has goddesses throwing themselves at him, but he never gives in to them, even though it's common practice for them. Just an example. People tend to be overly nice in the BS books I've read.

[Thews Lerin]

So often these threads start off as "Here's a topic: discuss" and turn into conversations/dialogues that go way off the topic.

 

On that note, my thoughts on BS's liberties:

I don't know that taking the most liberty is the right way to word it. He was given permission to write the last 3 books, so he has the liberty. And most everyone agrees he's done a fine job of it, considering that his writing style is very different from RJ's. He even addressed that before TGS came out, saying that it was his intent to keep the content consistent with what RJ left in his notes, but not to try to copy the style per se.

 

That said, there are definitely things that he could easily have avoided. I may be the only one (and if I am that's fine) but I have a small problem with some of the names. Several times I read the names of new characters and literally laughed out loud. To me, Azi is not a Two Rivers name. I'm not going to go back and dig through the book for other examples, but there was one Aiel maiden that had a very Cairhienen sounding name, and I couldn't help thinking, "That's so obvious..."

 

There are other things that I think were obvious oversights: 1) The fact that Siuan and Bryne didn't connect their Blood Knife encounter with the WT assassinations. That one had to be done on purpose to give Gawyn a chance to save Egwene and get bonded. 2) The fact that Rand had seen Tuon in his Mat visions, and when Semi impersonated her, but didn't recognize her at the Falme meeting. 3) Verin trusting Mat with the fate of Caemlyn. Seriously? It has to be setting up some other important scene, but please - it's completely beyond reason, especially considering Verin's nature and how careful she was with Egwene.

 

I concur with those that don't like modern vernacular creeping in - Some say that RJ did it too, but it was so much more noticeable in TGS and ToM. I shuddered when I read, "It's all about the boots."

 

I cannot believe there wasn't a single mention of Bela in ToM. Unacceptable!

 

Lastly, I think that the clouds clearing and the apples growing instantly when Mahatma Rand is around is just over the top. Maybe RJ left that in his notes. If he did, which I doubt, it's still over the top. Rand as ta'veren said many times that things that he caused were possible, just not probable. Which doesn't apply to apples growing to ripe in a few minutes.

 

Overall, I really think BS did a great job. I also think he's keeping with the RAFO mysteries for people like us to debate about (like Cynfear in Rand's dream in the epilogue. Trap or not a trap?) - giving enough info to spark a debate, but not enough to make it a slam dunk for either side. I think he intentionally did that for us. And for that, we thank him.

[RedVanilla]

I think he's taken the most liberty with how Mat feels about his hat. I don't remember RJ making Mat quite so attached to the hat, down to wanting Thom to include it in his ballad, or talking about how he got it. He bought it in the Waste...not much of a story there.

 

 

 

Thom in High Chant" And then Lord Mat leaned over to the Traders caravan, tossed him some money, and bought the hat the man was wearing. Then he put it on his head, and felt a little shade. And this tale shall ever live on, blah blah blah."

[Guest Aelfhere]

Did anyone else have the 300 scene going through there head when Mat defeated the Gholam? All I could see in my head as he backed him to the edge of the platform was "THIS IS SPARTA!" *kick*

 

That's probably where he took the most liberty in the book imho.

[RedVanilla]

I didn't until you mentioned it, but that is a pretty hilarious mental image.

[part]

I'm not sure that there's any one specific instance that I could point to but it seems like Sanderson's interpretation of ji'e'toh isn't quite the same as Jordan's. Like someone said a while back, most of Sanderson's characters are fundamentally nice people which doesn't really mesh well with the Aiel, who aren't really driven by compassion or empathy

[EmeraldCastrol]

I concur with those that don't like modern vernacular creeping in - Some say that RJ did it too, but it was so much more noticeable in TGS and ToM. I shuddered when I read, "It's all about the boots."

 

Yes, I was cringeing throughout the whole boots dialogue. I generally like everything else that Sanderson has done for WoT except for him turning Mat into a real dork! Mat doesn't need to explain himself to anyone.

[capuga]

Lastly, I think that the clouds clearing and the apples growing instantly when Mahatma Rand is around is just over the top. Maybe RJ left that in his notes. If he did, which I doubt, it's still over the top. Rand as ta'veren said many times that things that he caused were possible, just not probable. Which doesn't apply to apples growing to ripe in a few minutes.

 

This doesn't actually have anything to do with ta'veren. This has to do with Rand being the Fisher King - The land is one with the Dragon and all that. That is why the grain spoils instantly when Rand decides to abandon Arad Doman in tGS. The land suffered when he was Dark Rand and it prospers now that he is Mahatma Rand. This is actually a long established theme in the books.

[dogsdogsdogs]

tbh it's a relief they arent all bickering like petty children, especially given their stature and responsibility. i grew tired of the irrelevant and entirely shallow squabbling that went on between human beings who were supposedly in charge of saving the world.