The thing I think Sanderson has taken the most liberty with

[Hot_Soup]

Overall I feel like Brandon Sanderson has done as good a job as he could do with WoT. On the whole he has kept true to what I'm sure RJ left, and to what he could take from the first 11 books. However, it seems to me that he has changed at least one thing in a way that Robert Jordan would not have wanted, and is not in the spirit of WoT. That is, the characters are becoming all two reasonable. Now this is pleasant, and something we all probably longed for as we read WoT. Characters that listen to each other, characters that can change each others minds, characters that do the things we as readers want them to do. Before the characters were always very frustrating, and I'm sure you all felt it. The biggest problem with making all your characters reasonable and doing and saying what the reader wants is that they all become different flavors of the same person. They start to lose some of their individuality. I find it somewhat ironic that a lot of the time when Sanderson makes a character do or say something they would not have done in the past, he makes reference to it. Either a character will be surprised by the other characters new found maturity, or the character doing the nice and reasonable thing will have an inner monologue of how they've changed, and maybe were wrong before.

 

Now, I like to think some of this is put down to character development, but what book/series have you ever read where all the characters begin developing in the same way at the same exact time? My problem is that it feels more like Sanderson's will than the logical progression from books 1-11. I don't expect many of you to find a problem with this, since it's probably what you wanted and have longed to see. I expect there to be some examples, of no, they do still have their differences and make the wrong decisions. I'd argue tat these are false issues though, ones that are created and dealt with quickly as the character with the issue soon sees the light.

[Sid]

He does do a fair amount of hand-holding, which is quite different from what we're used to.

 

As a counterexample of 'too reasonable', Egwene. Also Tuon. Cadsuane.

I do see what you're saying, though.

Characters did have to start seeing other points of view, however. Otherwise nothing could happen. I guess the way that this decisionmaking was presented wasn't quite the same as it was before. Likely RJ's notes gave many examples of Char X decides to change his mind on Y because of Z, but that's a lot of tough writing to fill it all in.

[Hot_Soup]

He does do a fair amount of hand-holding, which is quite different from what we're used to.

 

As a counterexample of 'too reasonable', Egwene. Also Tuon. Cadsuane.

I do see what you're saying, though.

Characters did have to start seeing other points of view, however. Otherwise nothing could happen. I guess the way that this decisionmaking was presented wasn't quite the same as it was before. Likely RJ's notes gave many examples of Char X decides to change his mind on Y because of Z, but that's a lot of tough writing to fill it all in.

How are Egwene, Tuon and Cadsuane unreasonable though? I'm only up to Chapter 20, but if with Egwene you're referencing her not wanting Rand to break the seals I disagree. Rand admits that he knew she'd be angry, he wanted her to disagree with him, and obviously he has something planned. Her anger and reaction fits into the narritive rather nicely. Also, I don't see her reaction as unreasonable. Oh hey, I'm going to go let the most evil thing ever out, it can unmake existence and other coolness, but don't worry, I don't have a plan, but if I do come up with one, it'll probably include you guys, so be ready to do what I want. Peace out bitches."

[Terez]

Hard to see IMO, when Cadsuane got noticeably unreasonable in TGS, and Elayne is stupider than ever before in TOM.

[slacker123]

He does do a fair amount of hand-holding, which is quite different from what we're used to.

 

As a counterexample of 'too reasonable', Egwene. Also Tuon. Cadsuane.

I do see what you're saying, though.

Characters did have to start seeing other points of view, however. Otherwise nothing could happen. I guess the way that this decisionmaking was presented wasn't quite the same as it was before. Likely RJ's notes gave many examples of Char X decides to change his mind on Y because of Z, but that's a lot of tough writing to fill it all in.

 

i'd have to agree, especially egwene....way too unreasonable

still many people in the book who are unreasonable

[Hot_Soup]

Hard to see IMO, when Cadsuane got noticeably unreasonable in TGS, and Elayne is stupider than ever before in TOM.

Yeah, I don't think he writes Elayne well. I think he sees her too much like most of you do. Some of it is because he's writing her as moody because of the pregnancy though.

[Goramier]

I must admit that when I read the book I too felt that many of those characters where all-of-a-sudden changed in that they were now acting much more accepting of Rand and being reasonable. Look at how long it has dragged out for example, for the Aes Sadai to believe the male half cleansed and there were witnesses to the event. I suspect it was in fact done on purpose and BS was well aware of this when writing certain scenes and characters. I also suspect that he probably didn't have a choice. Basically the way Elayne and Egwene have been in the past, he could have stretched just those two story lines out for many, many books yet.

 

I think he hinted it at it but at the same time, it was most noteable in two spots. The first is where Egwene is confronted by Rand. IMHO I think that if book length and volume numbers where not an issue that scene could have created about 20 chapters worth of writing alone. Rand would have spent time doing things while planning how to confront Eg and Eg would have spent several chapters manipulating it to the Towers advantage and possibly even having some actualy conflict. Eg after all is so full of herself and the Tower that up until this book, I think her character was the perfect example of how Aes Sadai get the way they get and believe that they are special and have a right to all power and influence. The other is about Elayne's dealing with her mom and taking Carh. That could have been dragged out much, much longer then it was.

 

At some point though if BS ever plans on finishing these books he probably was forced to simply close those personality gaps somehow.

 

Anyways, I am just offering my thoughts as I too felt that many characters where basically written differently and IMO BS really had no other option if he wanted to ever finish this series.

[AuldGoldBeard]

Meh, there's definitely been a change in the reasonability respect, but impossible to say if that was RJ's intention or BWS's doing.

 

The biggest difference, IMO, is that RJ wrote for a more adult audience. Not to put words in Sid's mouth, but I think this is what he meant by "hand-holding." Where RJ made us infer, BWS spells things out in (often excruciating) detail, and Sanderson's humor is a little more juvenile. That said, Sanderson has done an admirable job with a very difficult task, and we should all be infinitely grateful to him for finishing the series.

[Cazajay]

I was fed up with Egwene being changed beyond recognition she was one of my favourite characters in the whole of series and supposed to be an expert in TaR and in that scene with Perrin in the WT she acted surprised he could stop balefire?? So not consistent when she knew the BA were not there in the flesh!

Egwene was even using OP when before she simply used her mind in TaR. Then that scene with Mesaana it was embarrassing Egwene imposing her will that she was the Amrylin seat not a young child on someone who hasn't lived through a war? Hello Egwene War of the Shadows, doh!

[ajfurst]

I don't think he's taken liberty with it at all. Pretty much every 'Light side' characters arc is about their personal growth and increasing maturity mirroring, if not being directly responsible for the action side of it.

 

Take some of them in TGS/TOM:

Mat - the over trying first couple of TGS chapters aside is Mat still being Mat. Still drinks, gambles, wants to avoid fights, but will always do what's required. Now just uses the excuse of looking for others to perve on other women.

Egwene - regressed in TOM. Not the opposition to Rand. The whole embracing the worst of the Aes Sedai to do it. Manipulative, dismissive of men in authority, the Aes Sedai must be top of the tree, etc. Anything but reasonable and willing to listen to others.

Elayne - stupid as ever. 'I'm safe! Min said so!'. The WOT doesn't need to be the Sword of Truth with rapes everywhere, but it'd have been an incredibly powerful scene if Mellar dragged her off and Birgitte/Mat rescue her after he'd assaulted Elayne.

Nynaeve - she's been on a progression since ACOS at least. And reached it in KOD. She's just continued as one of the bare handful Aes Sedai out of a thousand you can respect as a person. She didn't change in TGS/TOM I think.

 

As for Rand, Perrin and Faile - their plot lines in TGS/TOM were as much, if not more, about who they become as what they did. And that would have been RJ's outline.

 

The thing Sanderson has taken the most liberty with is characters language. I can accept him not trying to mimic RJ, in the sense of pages of silk washing, or Elayne having a bath (all I can say on these, is this better be redeemed by them picking a damn fine looking actress and not censor the Elayne bath scenes in any tv-series / movie!), but using out of character words/phrases, this I don't like. Especially 20th/21st century terms. I can see Brandon may find it easier/quicker to write the story with these terms initially, so he's not second guessing himself and getting out of 'the groove', but they shouldn't make it past editing for the final cut.

[Terez]

I was fed up with Egwene being changed beyond recognition she was one of my favourite characters in the whole of series and supposed to be an expert in TaR and in that scene with Perrin in the WT she acted surprised he could stop balefire??

She thought to herself that she wasn't so much surprised by what he'd done as she was surprised that it was him.

[metalisticpain]

He does do a fair amount of hand-holding, which is quite different from what we're used to.

 

As a counterexample of 'too reasonable', Egwene. Also Tuon. Cadsuane.

I do see what you're saying, though.

Characters did have to start seeing other points of view, however. Otherwise nothing could happen. I guess the way that this decisionmaking was presented wasn't quite the same as it was before. Likely RJ's notes gave many examples of Char X decides to change his mind on Y because of Z, but that's a lot of tough writing to fill it all in.

How are Egwene, Tuon and Cadsuane unreasonable though? I'm only up to Chapter 20, but if with Egwene you're referencing her not wanting Rand to break the seals I disagree. Rand admits that he knew she'd be angry, he wanted her to disagree with him, and obviously he has something planned. Her anger and reaction fits into the narritive rather nicely. Also, I don't see her reaction as unreasonable. Oh hey, I'm going to go let the most evil thing ever out, it can unmake existence and other coolness, but don't worry, I don't have a plan, but if I do come up with one, it'll probably include you guys, so be ready to do what I want. Peace out bitches."

 

As a reader i want tuon and matt to meet, up stay together and tuon to stop killing aes sedai and prosecuting war. She did the opposite in this book, dedicating to destroying to WT. She is NOT reasonable right now

[Yates_]

I think a lot of some character's reasonableness had to do with Rand. He was making good sense, and much more importantly, explaining his decisions. Given his behavior over the most recent books, women channelers must have thought he was going insane. Or that he was turning into a megalomaniac. He scared them, so they resorted to the bullying that had always worked in the past on othre men. They couldn't bully Rand, cause he could have literally crushed them, even without the OP. So they got their backs up, which put his back more up, which just snowballed.

 

Now Rand is using logic, and explaining his decisions. He isn't acting crazy anymore. We have had the benefit of Rand's POV. To someone without that he would have been terrifying. The Channelers reacted badly, sure. But now that Rand has changed, for the better, they are responding to that.

[Colonel_Sanders]

Sorry to be a pain but if something is going to be moved from/to the non-spoiler section can the title be changed to advise that it contains spoilers?

 

Thanks

[Celes Chere]

The characters have grown a lot more reasonable; they spell out their thoughts and feelings a lot more clearly. I do agree that this is most likely Brandon Sanderson's influence, but there are a couple of other factors as well. It actually didn't bug me that much, with the exception of Elayne. I mean, I wanted her to be a little more mature and reasonable, but the way it was written just didn't sound like her at all. It was like some other Andoran queen was actually treating Mat in a friendly fashion, and not that Elayne herself had grown more fond of him.

 

Firstly, as others have pointed out, the characters have matured and changed, so this could account for part of their change in attitude. The other potential supporting cause is that the characters are finally having meetings with one another, reuniting people who have spent the vast majority of the books apart from one another. A lot of their conflict and hatred for one another occurred due to just not seeing/talking to one another to clear things up (e.g. Gawyn's hatred of Rand). So perhaps all of the meetings in this book encouraged greater reason between the characters.

 

Aside from the increasingly reasonable characters, I would say BS's biggest change is... making little changes. Not necessarily of the plot; I'm guessing RJ had it thoroughly mapped out before he passed away. But the descriptions of characters and events have changed somewhat, and I feel as though he has missed bits and pieces of background story (e.g. Carlyina's fate?). That being said, I really don't think he's to blame for minor discrepancies, as a series as massive as WoT would be hard for anyone other than RJ to navigate, especially coupled with the pressure of trying to conform to his writing style. He has done a good job, and I don't think he has taken too many liberties overall.

[nolirion]

I Think it as more to do about their maturity then something else,

Perrin was acting a bit foolishly about him being a leader and he grow up , much as Mat did by the way.

They are still infuriating in many way , myself i wanted Mat to open that damn letter (from Verin) all the

long he will no do it , after all when Matrim bloody Cauthon give is word it is way more meaningful then the "oath road" .

[Cazajay]

I was fed up with Egwene being changed beyond recognition she was one of my favourite characters in the whole of series and supposed to be an expert in TaR and in that scene with Perrin in the WT she acted surprised he could stop balefire??

She thought to herself that she wasn't so much surprised

by what he'd done as she was surprised that it was him.

 

 

Is that why she said to Perrin "How did you do that? Nothing stops Balefire!" (yeah in the real world not in TaR)

Egwene was consistently told by the Wise Ones that using the OP in the dream wasn't neccessary that Thought was quicker than she can channel. Wasn't she punished for not getting that right? Besides not all Dreamwalkers could channel in real world.

 

That's what I meant by inconsistent.

[Cazajay]

Sorry to be a pain but if something is going to be moved from/to the non-spoiler section can the title be changed to advise that it contains spoilers?

 

Thanks

 

 

Considering the topic is under the umbrella heading of Towers of Midnight Spoilers, Id reckon you should already realise this?!

[FarShainMael]

Possibly I missed something, perhaps in 'extra material' such as Q&As, but I had a feeling of too many rabbits being pulled out of hats that we didn't even know were there. A prime example is Graendal's escape. Had we ever, at any time, been given any clue that channellers could Borrow (Granny Weatherwax-style), i.e. get into the minds of other creatures to use as spies? Yes we do know the DO does this, but what about mere humans? If it takes the TP to do it, why is it never mentioned by the only TP-user we were told about, barring Rand, i.e. Moridin? I went back to look at the chapter in tGS about balefiring NB, and there wasn't even a mention of a bird tweeting nearby! (Correct me if wrong..)

[Cazajay]

Graendal was taught this "trick" using TP at some point she had to think hard to remember the weave. She explained in thought that it was difficult in other animals that don't feed off the dead but not impossible. The bird was under her control and perched in a nearby tree and TP isn't detectable.

 

She did wonder why the DO using the same method would have had to get the bird back to Shayol Ghul before he could distill the info instead of seeing it in Real Time like Graendal can. Oh and Paidin Fain is an example of it used on a human that way.

 

It's plausible as there is a lot we don't know about the DO and True Power.

[FarShainMael]

It's certainly plausible, that's not my point. I'm concerned that there were no clues to this whatever in the preceding books, AFAICS.

[messiestobjects]

The characters are very, very, veryveryvery emo when written by Brandon. Many of the characters were reduced to emo caricatures of their former selves, and I found it hard to deal especially, as has been widely agreed upon already, with Mat. But also with other characters to a lesser degree. Lan, in particular, is being poorly written. He whines, complains, and scolds; gone are all inklings of stoneface as we came to know and love him. In fact, Sanderson seems incapable of understanding the taciturn nature of warriors in Randland, and refuses to attempt the trick of emoting by showing the nonverbal side of human communication, opting instead to take the easy way out and have these strong men say everything they're thinking and feeling. Being a taciturn warrior-like beast myself, it makes it difficult to get over some of these scenes. I understand that some softening of stone is necessary, given the nature of the action in the final leg, but I mean really. It's just lazy.

[nolirion]

The characters are very, very, veryveryvery emo when written by Brandon. Many of the characters were reduced to emo caricatures of their former selves, and I found it hard to deal especially, as has been widely agreed upon already, with Mat. But also with other characters to a lesser degree. Lan, in particular, is being poorly written. He whines, complains, and scolds; gone are all inklings of stoneface as we came to know and love him. In fact, Sanderson seems incapable of understanding the taciturn nature of warriors in Randland, and refuses to attempt the trick of emoting by showing the nonverbal side of human communication, opting instead to take the easy way out and have these strong men say everything they're thinking and feeling. Being a taciturn warrior-like beast myself, it makes it difficult to get over some of these scenes. I understand that some softening of stone is necessary, given the nature of the action in the final leg, but I mean really. It's just lazy.

Because he is no longer a Taciturn warrior , he is no longer Aan'allein he find is people and ride to no longer death but to the last battle

[messiestobjects]

 

Because he is no longer a Taciturn warrior , he is no longer Aan'allein he find is people and ride to no longer death but to the last battle

 

Actually, he doesn't change his will about any of that until the end of the book. And even if he had started off merrily cheering the golden crane, he's still Lan. No, he's a reflection of the writer, and no longer acts like a warrior. I believe that RJ's Lan would have gritted his teeth, spat something growly yet noncommittal at every Malkier who crossed his path, and continued on his way with growly thoughts about Nynaeve. He did this to some degree, so you can see RJ's outline there well enough, but the whiny yelling every time someone wanted to put on a Hadori... [shudder].

[TonyMacaroniGlenholmes]

I think, critically speaking, the issue with Lan was the grandiose speech he makes when he raise the golden crane. It felt out of character. Other than that, I thought he was fine.

 

And I do not agree with BWS making the characters more co-operative and more touchy-feely. I doubt that such a change would have gotten through editing. This was deliberate...now maybe the increased loquaciousness of the main characters would have been written differently by RJ, (in fact there's no 'maybe' about it!) but this had to happen for the plot to move forward and RJ would have done it also.

 

The case in point is Mat and Perrin...your BFFs and you haven't seen each other in years...of course you're gonna catch up. That's not to say they'll mention everything to each other...this is WoT after all...but you've got to expect some sort of discourse about what you've been up to since you've seen each other last.