Rand and Moridin

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

From what i have read from around the place it's seems most people consider the bond between Rand and Moridin to simply be a physical connection like a " if i punch rand in the gut moridin will feel it too" kind of thing, and while i don't dispute this i would like to expand upon the idea with a few thoughts of my own..

 

I think the physical connect exists but i ALSO think that there is a soul/and temporal connection going on here as well.

 

Look at Rands behaviour post the balefire crossing up to tGS. He gets increasingly paranoid and angry, especially when someone tells him what to do, although not unique to anyone i think these traits strongly correlate to Moridin. I'm thinking that rather then blaming the taint for rands increasingly bad behaviour i think it is the connection to Moridin, i think Moridin unknowingly is influencing the emotions that rand has, i.e Moridin is already half mad and since Rand is in a weakened mental and emotional condition the strength of Moridins mental and emotional state flows into Rand. Because it is also a Temporal link i think this seeping of Moridins state into Rand has been occurring constantly since the link was formed. (i.e. Ongoing at a consistent rate).

 

I'm also thinking that because of the nature of this link that when Rand/LT merge at the end of tGS that due to the return of strength of his mental and emotional state that the link will start to work the other way, that Moridin will start to act less insane and less angry. I think we will start to see the rational side of Moridin start coming out and maybe even a turn to the light.

 

An example of why i think this might occur is from when Rand is pulled into Moridins dream/TAR area and they are talking. Moridin was acting quite dismissively and Rand felt less disconnected between him and LT then Moridin started opening up a little. What if... Due to the proximity/increased stability of Rand at that point Moridin instantly gained a brief lessening of his madness.

 

What do you think?

[rambling]

I've never put Darth Rand's behaviour down to the taint. Just the sheer pressure of the job he's supposed to do would be enough to drive anyone to suicide.

To a certain extent I agree with you. I feel there should be some sort a temporal link, a purely physical link just seems, well, lame.

Here's an interesting question though, if there is a temporal link, why did Moridin tell Graendal to go and cause Rand heartache , anguish and frustration (TGS prologue)?

[Bob T Dwarf]

I've never put Darth Rand's behaviour down to the taint. Just the sheer pressure of the job he's supposed to do would be enough to drive anyone to suicide.

To a certain extent I agree with you. I feel there should be some sort a temporal link, a purely physical link just seems, well, lame.

Here's an interesting question though, if there is a temporal link, why did Moridin tell Graendal to go and cause Rand heartache , anguish and frustration (TGS prologue)?

 

Given the choices Elan Morin Tedronai has made in his life, there's a good chance he's a masochist.

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

I've never put Darth Rand's behaviour down to the taint. Just the sheer pressure of the job he's supposed to do would be enough to drive anyone to suicide.

To a certain extent I agree with you. I feel there should be some sort a temporal link, a purely physical link just seems, well, lame.

Here's an interesting question though, if there is a temporal link, why did Moridin tell Graendal to go and cause Rand heartache , anguish and frustration (TGS prologue)?

 

I also think that Moridin doesn't fully understand the link either, it is possible because hurting Rand physically is off the table for him the next best is to ruin his mind and heart. plus he is just a asshole lol also with rands state at that point Moridin wouldn't be feeling anything positive any negativity felt coming from rand would just be the same to what he is already feeling.

[didymos]

Why do people keep using "temporal" ( of/relating to time) when they mean "emotional" or "empathic"? I've seen this description of the Rand/Moridin thing all over the place. I'm not sure what a "temporal link" would even mean, unless one of the more general and figurative definitions like "things not of heaven, but earth" was being used, in which case it would just be redundant at best.

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

Why do people keep using "temporal" ( of/relating to time) when they mean "emotional" or "empathic"? I've seen this description of the Rand/Moridin thing all over the place. I'm not sure what a "temporal link" would even mean, unless one of the more general and figurative definitions like "things not of heaven, but earth" was being used, in which case it would just be redundant at best.

 

What i mean by temporal is that the link is constant and constantly changing. If Rand was to feel extreme negativity at one particular point it would be felt by moridin at that same time not as a flow on somewhere later down the line.

[Guest]

heres a crazy one for ya, what if Moridin is the fisher, not the dragon :P

[didymos]

Why do people keep using "temporal" ( of/relating to time) when they mean "emotional" or "empathic"? I've seen this description of the Rand/Moridin thing all over the place. I'm not sure what a "temporal link" would even mean, unless one of the more general and figurative definitions like "things not of heaven, but earth" was being used, in which case it would just be redundant at best.

 

What i mean by temporal is that the link is constant and constantly changing. If Rand was to feel extreme negativity at one particular point it would be felt by moridin at that same time not as a flow on somewhere later down the line.

 

OK, that describes the physical aspects as well: Rand loses hand. Moridin is seen flexing hand as if it were stiff or injured. And what does "as a flow" mean? I'm guessing something like "signal", since the rest basically means "It's not delayed". Anyway what you're actually saying is that the link is instantaneous. I.e., it takes no time (which I'm not actually sure is the case. It's kinda sorta implied, but the books aren't explicit enough to say for certain). The point is, the link has nothing to do with time in and of itself. It's merely, like basically everything else, time-dependent: Rand experiences/does X. Moridin is affected by that experience/action. Rand stops experiencing/doing X. Moridin stops being affected. So, is it "temporal" in that sense? Yeah, and it's also "spatial", since it takes place in the physical space known as "the universe" and is to some extent affected by each man's local (and in the case of Rand's hand, personal) geometry. Neither is any sort of helpful description of how they're actually affected.

[dwn]

heres a crazy one for ya, what if Moridin is the fisher, not the dragon :P

 

That's an interesting notion. Rand fits the description of the Fisher (blind and wounded), but then so does Elan Morin, albeit in a less literal way.

 

According to Verin, the DO requires selfishness in his highest servants. Now, Moridin's nihilism and beyond suicidal bent can be seen as the ultimate selfishness, but it's also the position of ultimate despair. in Veins of Gold, Rand's epiphany has a lot to do with overcoming despair. It will be interesting to see Moridin's reaction.

 

-- dwn

[rambling]

heres a crazy one for ya, what if Moridin is the fisher, not the dragon :P

 

That's an interesting notion. Rand fits the description of the Fisher (blind and wounded), but then so does Elan Morin, albeit in a less literal way.

 

According to Verin, the DO requires selfishness in his highest servants. Now, Moridin's nihilism and beyond suicidal bent can be seen as the ultimate selfishness, but it's also the position of ultimate despair. in Veins of Gold, Rand's epiphany has a lot to do with overcoming despair. It will be interesting to see Moridin's reaction.

 

-- dwn

 

I've always thought of it as Moridin playing the game, the DO as the black, the Light as the white and Rand as the Fisher King. ie. Moridin is playing both sides against each other.

[yoniy0]

UseR2006, the psychological aspects of the link have been discussed before. Most prominently, I'd refer you to Luckers's compilation on the nature of The Rand/Moridin Link. I think it's fair to say it's accepted that Rand's behavior has been affected by Moridin's psyche.

 

@didymos do you mind toning down your grammatical criticism? While it seems clear that UseR2006 is a native English speaker, not everyone on DM is, and regardless - it's hardly the main focus of these boards. To correct someone is more than fine, but please do it nicely.

[Maji]

heres a crazy one for ya, what if Moridin is the fisher, not the dragon :P

 

That's an interesting notion. Rand fits the description of the Fisher (blind and wounded), but then so does Elan Morin, albeit in a less literal way.

 

According to Verin, the DO requires selfishness in his highest servants. Now, Moridin's nihilism and beyond suicidal bent can be seen as the ultimate selfishness, but it's also the position of ultimate despair. in Veins of Gold, Rand's epiphany has a lot to do with overcoming despair. It will be interesting to see Moridin's reaction.

 

-- dwn

 

I have to agree. I would like to see some more of Moridin POVs hoping to catch a glimpse on Rand's personality (and it's changes through VoG) and what effects it has on the Nae'blis. I've always found the Forsaken POVs to be the most interesting, especially that of the philosopher among them and his realization that the DO winning would mean the end of existence and he seems to be ok with that. The other Forsaken seem to be oblivious to this, makes them a little less perceptive if you ask me xD I would have thought someone as quick and clever as Graendal would realize the DO cannot fulfill his promise if there is nothing left to rule.

[dwn]

According to Verin, the DO requires selfishness in his highest servants. Now, Moridin's nihilism and beyond suicidal bent can be seen as the ultimate selfishness, but it's also the position of ultimate despair. in Veins of Gold, Rand's epiphany has a lot to do with overcoming despair. It will be interesting to see Moridin's reaction.

 

-- dwn

 

I have to agree. I would like to see some more of Moridin POVs hoping to catch a glimpse on Rand's personality (and it's changes through VoG) and what effects it has on the Nae'blis. I've always found the Forsaken POVs to be the most interesting, especially that of the philosopher among them and his realization that the DO winning would mean the end of existence and he seems to be ok with that. The other Forsaken seem to be oblivious to this, makes them a little less perceptive if you ask me xD I would have thought someone as quick and clever as Graendal would realize the DO cannot fulfill his promise if there is nothing left to rule.

 

Actually, the scene between Rand and Moridin in TGS strongly implies that Elan Morin turned to the Shadow because a victory for the DO meant the end of his (painful) existence. He logically concluded that since a DO victory was inevitable, reality had no ultimate meaning. (I described my interpretation of his logic in the 'a philosophical question: the dark one betrays' thread.)

 

Although I don't know where (or if) it's explicitly stated, I think the other Forsaken believe that the DO will create a new reality and bring their souls along for the ride.

 

-- dwn

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

I am now saddened after reading practically my theory much more eloquently put by Luckers :( Thanks for that link by the way yoniy0

And yes being Aussie i am a native English speaker :)

 

btw i didn't mind the question about my use of the word "temporal" probs was the wrong word to use but meh :)

[rambling]

According to Verin, the DO requires selfishness in his highest servants. Now, Moridin's nihilism and beyond suicidal bent can be seen as the ultimate selfishness, but it's also the position of ultimate despair. in Veins of Gold, Rand's epiphany has a lot to do with overcoming despair. It will be interesting to see Moridin's reaction.

 

-- dwn

 

I have to agree. I would like to see some more of Moridin POVs hoping to catch a glimpse on Rand's personality (and it's changes through VoG) and what effects it has on the Nae'blis. I've always found the Forsaken POVs to be the most interesting, especially that of the philosopher among them and his realization that the DO winning would mean the end of existence and he seems to be ok with that. The other Forsaken seem to be oblivious to this, makes them a little less perceptive if you ask me xD I would have thought someone as quick and clever as Graendal would realize the DO cannot fulfill his promise if there is nothing left to rule.

 

Actually, the scene between Rand and Moridin in TGS strongly implies that Elan Morin turned to the Shadow because a victory for the DO meant the end of his (painful) existence. He logically concluded that since a DO victory was inevitable, reality had no ultimate meaning. (I described my interpretation of his logic in the 'a philosophical question: the dark one betrays' thread.)

 

Although I don't know where (or if) it's explicitly stated, I think the other Forsaken believe that the DO will create a new reality and bring their souls along for the ride.

 

-- dwn

 

First, I'll apologise if this has already been covered but my computer and this site have conspired against me - I can't search or follow links very easily at the moment.

 

Tha quote you wanted was in TGS ch15

""There is no path to victory", Moridin said. "The only path is to follow the Great Lord and rule for a time before all things end. The others are fools. They look for grand rewards in the eternities, but there will be no eternities. Only the now, the last days."

He laughed again, and this time there was joy in it. True pleasure."

 

I can understand Moridin being happy about living the "last days" if reality has no ultimate meaning. He's resigned to his fate and he's making the best of it whilst he waits for the end of existence. He could arrange to get himself balefired, but then he risks being born as some miserable wretch on the receiving end of the treatment he hands out now. He might as well enjoy the privelges he's worked for. He seems genuinely pleased that there will be an end and I'm assuming that to his mind, it must be the 'final' end - no more existence. He will not be reborn and he will not be Moridin for all eternity.

 

TGS ch15 (Moridin) "Over and over the Ages turn, and men fight the Great Lord. But someday, he will win, and when he does, the Wheel will stop."

 

But, from the DO's point of view, no more existence is pointless, how can he wield all that power if he has no one to torment. So existence has to, well, exist. And he'll need lieutenants. This is what the other FO are banking on, though presumably they're hoping to skip the rebirth part.

 

So what makes Moridin say that the Wheel will stop? The only thing I can think of at the moment is that Moridin thinks that the DO's aim is to extinguish the world.

 

Driving Mr. Sanderson (from Half Moon Bay to San Jose), 21 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

Matt: Yeah, that’s . . . are there many Wheels or just one Wheel?

Brandon: That’s not a question, I’m afraid, that I can answer because I don’t think it’s within the scope of the books, and I don’t think that the characters . . . that there are people that could know.

You will find Browns arguing all of these different things among themselves, and it’s not my place to step in and end the discussion.

 

In a universe of many worlds/wheels the DO is destroying the Creator's work? Is that what he thinks?

[didymos]

 

But, from the DO's point of view, no more existence is pointless, how can he wield all that power if he has no one to torment. So existence has to, well, exist.

 

OK, but that doesn't mean the DO has the least interest in this existence or those in it. His interest could be in destroying the Creator's work and replacing it entirely with something of his own.

[dwn]

 

But, from the DO's point of view, no more existence is pointless, how can he wield all that power if he has no one to torment. So existence has to, well, exist.

 

OK, but that doesn't mean the DO has the least interest in this existence or those in it. His interest could be in destroying the Creator's work and replacing it entirely with something of his own.

 

The DO is an unfathomable being (for lack of a better term) beyond reality. Attributing human motivations to him is likely futile, which is a mistake most of the Forsaken fall into.

 

Something I've speculated on before is that the DO reflects the darker impulses of whoever perceives him, which leads his followers to attribute their own desires to him. While the AOL wasn't all bunnies and cupcakes, the opening of the Bore certainly seemed to bring out the partially suppressed evil in humanity.

 

-- dwn

[rambling]

 

But, from the DO's point of view, no more existence is pointless, how can he wield all that power if he has no one to torment. So existence has to, well, exist.

 

OK, but that doesn't mean the DO has the least interest in this existence or those in it. His interest could be in destroying the Creator's work and replacing it entirely with something of his own.

 

I should have been clearer. That line should have had something like 'Assuming that the DO want's to control the world,' at the begining.

I can see how he might want to replace things in the way he wants, but as I understand it everything has a thread in the pattern, not just living things. If you destroy the pattern, you stop the wheel, you end everything including the world. Then, he needs the Creator to make another one doesn't he? That's why you might assume the DO wants to control the world, not destroy it.

(And anyway, couldn't he just 'compulse' the FO into balefireing everything into oblivion if all he wanted was to destroy completely?)

[WhiskyJack]

^^Assumption being that DO cannot create? Otherwise the whole idea falls apart.

[Barid Bel Medar]

^^Assumption being that DO cannot create? Otherwise the whole idea falls apart.

 

There has been a whole debate on the DO= create thing.

 

I think the definition of "create" is important here.

 

the DO destroys the pattern, it seems the only ability, to take away and harm.

however, one must consider outside the pattern. COULD the DO create the world in his own image as he says?

 

Inside the pattern however, I believe that teh DO can only destroy and corrupt.

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

Moridin obviously would believe then that the Dark one doesn't have the ability to create because if he did then he would still exist in the dark ones world. Moridin is expecting non-existence. Though this is all assuming Moridin has a better grasp on the intentions of the DO.

 

Personally i think the DO can't create only manipulate, corrupt and change. The Creator and the DO are set as polar opposites in the story, therefore i would conclude that the DO can't create. Hell, even the things created in the name of the shadow are only manipulations of other things.(e.g Fades, Darkhounds)

[didymos]

Inside the pattern however, I believe that teh DO can only destroy and corrupt.

 

That's my feeling about it. He is opposed to the Creator, so he's not going to have a salutary effect on anything the Creator has, well, created. But, the TP still creates things that have the same basic result as the OP. TP balefire does what OP balefire does. You can still make fire, sources of illumination, etc. The mechanics of how these TP weaves affect the current reality is irrelevant: they are still things made of Eau d'Shai'tan. At one point, they did not exist. Later, they did. That's creating something, so it stands to reason the DO can create things too. I just don't think you'd want to be part of any reality designed to his specifications. Whether that would be some sort of EVIL Pattern with an EVIL Wheel and worlds populated with EVIL mirror-universe people who all have EVIL goatees or whatever...who knows? Those mechanisms were the result of the Creator's choices, made to accomplish his goals. I see no reason to think those are the only options available to anydeity looking to fashion a universe or two.