Discuss Prologue Through Chapter 45

[Jeangray]

Now you want Rand to do the impossible and prove a negative. "I'm not nuts, see?"

 

He doesn't have to be nuts to make a fateful mistake. How many times did various people save Rand's bacon at the last moment because of his mistakes?

 

He's supposed to trust her, but she has no need to trust him?

 

When did Rand trust Egwene? And why is she supposed to trust him blindly when she has a prophetic vision that what he intends would doom the world? And he doesn't explain his plan anyway beyond breaking the Seals, so she can't know if it has any merit or no.

 

So, the world needs Rand far more than Rand needs the world.

 

Eh, didn't this kind of thinking nearly lead to DO's victory in TGS?

 

Really, what you want is some kind of a "cult of personality" for Rand and it is never was a good thing, in RL or in fiction ;).

[b3arz3rg3r]

I wouldn't blame Egwene for her reaction, Rand is using her. Egwene and the Aes Sedai are simply ignorant about the nature of the seal and the true state of the world and they are refusing Rand out of fear. They think that they can't lose until the last seal has broken and that they have time and that is apparently a false assumption. Rand is obviously aware of that and he knows that Egwene will want to oppose him. He didn't explain his reasoning and delivered his announcement as direct as possible to cause this very reaction. What he seeks to gain from it I don't know yet, but he's clearly manipulating Egwene and through her the rest of the world except the Seanchan for some reason.

[WhiskyJack]

 

LTT's plan was a desperate fallback.

 

No, according to the world book, it was something that he had worked on for a long time. And that due to his arguments the construction of CK was put on hold many times.

 

LTT implied to Rand in TGS that if the female Aes Sedai had helped him, the taint might not happened, but there's no way of saying for sure.

 

RJ said in his QAs that saidar would have been tainted if the female AS had participated in the Sealing (and no, I am not hunting for a quote. Theoryland has it in it's QA database though). LTT only saved the world rather than doomed it because women refused to participate.

 

Also, while nobody may have anticipated the taint exactly, in a world with prophetic Dreams and Fortellings and what have you, don't you think that there must have been warning signs of this nature? Like there are now.

 

Re: following a leader. Following one blindly and without question often lead to terrible disasters. Rand himself made some very big mistakes that way, leave alone LTT. If he wants to do something so drastic, he bloody should explain - at least to people whom he trusts and needs. And listen to their arguments.

 

 

1)CK construction was never put on hold because of LTT's plan. Plz don't make things up. I am truly trying to understand what you think would have happened if LTT had not done anything? Looks like you don't wanna answer that.

 

 

2) No one knew that there was a possibility of DO tainting the Saidair or Saidin so using the outcome of his action as "flaw" in the plan is pointless. Latra preferred Shadow winning over a "risky" plan,isn't that right?

 

I am pretty sure whatever explanation Rand gives for his plan to break the seals, WT will never ever agree with it. Only way for him to have any cooperation with Aes Sedai is make them work for him by "force".

[WhiskyJack]

Re: following a leader. Following one blindly and without question often lead to terrible disasters. Rand himself made some very big mistakes that way, leave alone LTT. If he wants to do something so drastic, he bloody should explain - at least to people whom he trusts and needs. And listen to their arguments.

 

Now you want Rand to do the impossible and prove a negative. "I'm not nuts, see?"

 

He's supposed to trust her, but she has no need to trust him?

 

The fact here is that - per foretelling - Rand is going to die no matter what. Also, with the Dragon, it's touch-and-go, but without him, the world is screwed. So, the world needs Rand far more than Rand needs the world. Egwene and everybody else need to acquaint themselves with those facts and act accordingly.

 

What exactly is left to him as an option for accomplishing the resealing that isn't "drastic"? What action can anyone take that isn't "drastic" when faced with a world-ending scenario? List just one thing that the characters in this series can do that will succeed that isn't "drastic".

 

 

Hilarious thing is that if not for LTT's plan Shadow would have won 3000 years ago! I am still trying to understand how anyone is defending her? We know for sure that LTT only acted (whatever his thoughts were before) only after access keys were lost. So he should have not done anything and let "thinking" ones come up with another cool plan? Is that what his fault was?

 

Should we be even discussing these things here?

[Bob T Dwarf]

"And it shall come to pass that what men made shall be shattered,

and the Shadow shall lie across the Pattern of the Age,

and the Dark One shall once more lay his hand upon the world of man.

 

Women shall weep and men quail as the nations of the earth are rent like rotting cloth.

Neither shall anything stand nor abide...

 

Yet one shall be born to face the Shadow,

born once more as he was born before and shall be born again,

time without end.

 

The Dragon shall be Reborn,

and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth at his rebirth.

In sackcloth and ashes shall he clothe the people,

and he shall break the world again by his coming,

tearing apart all ties that bind.

 

Like the unfettered dawn shall he blind us,

and burn us,

yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle,

and his blood shall give us the Light.

 

Let tears flow, O ye people of the world. Weep for your salvation."

 

Is there any mention of an innkeper's daughter in that? Any mention of an Empress? An Amyrlin? Groups of channelers? Massed armies?

 

I didn't make Rand the messiah, Jordan did. If you're not willing to get behind somebody whose only purpose is to save your bacon, then go ahead and die.

 

The fact is that it's all a guess and a gamble at this point. The only thing that is certain is that following the Dragon's lead has the best chance of success. "... yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle, and his blood shall give us the Light. ..."

 

So, if you're Egwene or Fortuona, or anybody else, for your own sake, follow wherever he chooses to lead. Get behind whatever he thinks needs to be done and PUSH!

 

Or die. Utterly, completely, and for all time. Your choice.

 

That doesn't mean you can't question. It doesn't mean you can't make suggestions. It just means that "No." is not an acceptable answer.

[WhiskyJack]

Well it surely is said that without Dragon, light simply cannot win so 3000 years ago Latra's plan was bound to fail in first place. If Dragon is not on board, you simply cannot succeed and unfortunately, he is man. I blame Jordan for this;)

[Kestrel]

Way back when, what was it... about 4 years ago on the WoT timeline, Egwene was going to be Rand's wife and they were going to live happily ever after in Emond's Field.

 

Now she's acting like an irrational ex-wife after a nasty divorce. She's unwilling to consider any viewpoint except her own, and blind to the fatal flaws in her own ideas.

 

Bottom line: Egwene WAS raised too young. She still has a lot of growing up to do. Latra was holding out for the Choedan Kal. Egwene has no Choedan Kal alternative and is just grasping for straws.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Way back when, what was it... about 4 years ago on the WoT timeline, Egwene was going to be Rand's wife and they were going to live happily ever after in Emond's Field.

 

Now she's acting like an irrational ex-wife after a nasty divorce. She's unwilling to consider any viewpoint except her own, and blind to the fatal flaws in her own ideas.

 

Bottom line: Egwene WAS raised too young. She still has a lot of growing up to do. Latra was holding out for the Choedan Kal. Egwene has no Choedan Kal alternative and is just grasping for straws.

Like I said, that's too harsh. Egwene just doesn't have enough information to make an intelligent decision, she can only make a decision based upon fear until Rand explains his reasoning. Once he does give an explanation and she still refuses without offering a valid alternative or being unable to refute his reasoning then the name-calling may begin, but right now she should be in the clear of that.

[WhiskyJack]

Way back when, what was it... about 4 years ago on the WoT timeline, Egwene was going to be Rand's wife and they were going to live happily ever after in Emond's Field.

 

Now she's acting like an irrational ex-wife after a nasty divorce. She's unwilling to consider any viewpoint except her own, and blind to the fatal flaws in her own ideas.

 

Bottom line: Egwene WAS raised too young. She still has a lot of growing up to do. Latra was holding out for the Choedan Kal. Egwene has no Choedan Kal alternative and is just grasping for straws.

Like I said, that's too harsh. Egwene just doesn't have enough information to make an intelligent decision, she can only make a decision based upon fear until Rand explains his reasoning. Once he does give an explanation and she still refuses without offering a valid alternative or being unable to refute his reasoning then the name-calling may begin, but right now she should be in the clear of that.

 

1) Being an Aes Sedai, she will not bother to acquire more information. I guess she did not in the book.

2) I am 100% sure even if Rand had told her "everything", she would have objected still the same. Things like "it's too risky, how do you know this, you will destroy the world" blah blah. May be Rand knows that he can never convince Eqwene or any Aes Sedai so he simply didn't bother to tell them anymore than what he plans to do.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Like I said, that's too harsh. Egwene just doesn't have enough information to make an intelligent decision, she can only make a decision based upon fear until Rand explains his reasoning. Once he does give an explanation and she still refuses without offering a valid alternative or being unable to refute his reasoning then the name-calling may begin, but right now she should be in the clear of that.

 

Egwene doesn't have enough information to make an intelligent decision???

 

Rand is the Dragon Reborn. "... yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle, and his blood shall give us the Light." That's all Egwene or anybody else needs to know. There is nothing else that has any relevance to the situation the world finds itself in.

 

It's a simple situation and a simple choice. Follow Rand or die.

 

Eggy just needs to be a big girl and make that leap of faith.

[Jeangray]

Well it surely is said that without Dragon, light simply cannot win so 3000 years ago Latra's plan was bound to fail in first place.

 

Well, didn't RJ say that Champion of Light failed and even went over in the past, yet the result was "a draw" and the world continued? Now, I agree that in the current 3rd Age Rand is absolutely essential - Ishamael did good work at weakening the Pattern. I am not convinced that LTT was similarly indispensable, though.

And just because the Dragon Reborn is essential doesn't mean that there aren't other vital players. Or that he can't make crucial mistakes.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Like I said, that's too harsh. Egwene just doesn't have enough information to make an intelligent decision, she can only make a decision based upon fear until Rand explains his reasoning. Once he does give an explanation and she still refuses without offering a valid alternative or being unable to refute his reasoning then the name-calling may begin, but right now she should be in the clear of that.

 

Egwene doesn't have enough information to make an intelligent decision???

 

Rand is the Dragon Reborn. "... yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle, and his blood shall give us the Light." That's all Egwene or anybody else needs to know. There is nothing else that has any relevance to the situation the world finds itself in.

 

It's a simple situation and a simple choice. Follow Rand or die.

 

Eggy just needs to be a big girl and make that leap of faith.

 

No she doesn't, at least not yet. Cause if Rand makes the wrong move then the world will be well and truly screwed. And it is possible. The normal person would freak out if they heard Rand planning to do such a thing, and Egwene, though the Amrylin, would still be considered a normal person.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Well it surely is said that without Dragon, light simply cannot win so 3000 years ago Latra's plan was bound to fail in first place.

 

Well, didn't RJ say that Champion of Light failed and even went over in the past, yet the result was "a draw" and the world continued? Now, I agree that in the current 3rd Age Rand is absolutely essential - Ishamael did good work at weakening the Pattern. I am not convinced that LTT was similarly indispensable, though.

And just because the Dragon Reborn is essential doesn't mean that there aren't other vital players. Or that he can't make crucial mistakes.

 

Nobody is saying that the Dragon can't or won't make mistakes. Nobody is saying that others aren't important.

 

What I'm saying is that there has to be a leader, and since the Dragon is the one reborn for this task, the one with the knowledge, the talent, and the power to pull it off, the only one to have given any thought to how to go about it, it's good to let him lead and get out of his way. It's better to fall in and march where he leads. It's best to help in any way you can.

 

It's not good to wet yourself and throw tantrums. Hopefully Eggy will figure that out. If not Rand Sedai may need to braid her hair and give her a doll to play with.

[WhiskyJack]

Well it surely is said that without Dragon, light simply cannot win so 3000 years ago Latra's plan was bound to fail in first place.

 

Well, didn't RJ say that Champion of Light failed and even went over in the past, yet the result was "a draw" and the world continued? Now, I agree that in the current 3rd Age Rand is absolutely essential - Ishamael did good work at weakening the Pattern. I am not convinced that LTT was similarly indispensable, though.

And just because the Dragon Reborn is essential doesn't mean that there aren't other vital players. Or that he can't make crucial mistakes.

 

Sorry but what Dragon's side switching has to do with anything? RJ never said that shadow has won even once in Randland so..

 

What would have happened if LTT had not done anything? The man only acted when he believed Shadow was going to win for sure. Yet, Latra vehemently opposed his plan. To what end? WOT only proves the great schism between Men and women in Randland. It has nothing to do with one being right or wrong. Just deny the other side for hell of it.

 

I promise you, Eqwene will oppose ANY plan Rand proposes. And Rand knows this very well (how many times he has said that he doesn't trust her).

[WhiskyJack]

Like I said, that's too harsh. Egwene just doesn't have enough information to make an intelligent decision, she can only make a decision based upon fear until Rand explains his reasoning. Once he does give an explanation and she still refuses without offering a valid alternative or being unable to refute his reasoning then the name-calling may begin, but right now she should be in the clear of that.

 

Egwene doesn't have enough information to make an intelligent decision???

 

Rand is the Dragon Reborn. "... yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle, and his blood shall give us the Light." That's all Egwene or anybody else needs to know. There is nothing else that has any relevance to the situation the world finds itself in.

 

It's a simple situation and a simple choice. Follow Rand or die.

 

Eggy just needs to be a big girl and make that leap of faith.

 

No she doesn't, at least not yet. Cause if Rand makes the wrong move then the world will be well and truly screwed. And it is possible. The normal person would freak out if they heard Rand planning to do such a thing, and Egwene, though the Amrylin, would still be considered a normal person.

 

 

Unfortunately only Dragon can make right or wrong move, something that is lost on any Aes Sedai, not just Eqwene. Well Seanchan are going to take care of that, aren't they;)

[Jeangray]

What I'm saying is that there has to be a leader, and since the Dragon is the one reborn for this task, the one with the knowledge, the talent, and the power to pull it off, the only one to have given any thought to how to go about it, it's good to let him lead and get out of his way. It's better to fall in and march where he leads.

 

Even when the Pattern is telling you via prophetic Dreams, which you know by experience that you can rely on, that what the Dragon says he intends to do will doom the world?

Also, if the Dragon can make fateful mistakes, why is it good to get out of his way when you see him making one?

 

In the end, only AMOL will resolve our argument, I am afraid. IMHO, there is a reason why Egwene had to be set up in the position she is currently in and to be immune to Rand's ta'veren influence as she is in ToM. Let's agree to disagree until then.

[Jeangray]

RJ never said that shadow has won even once in Randland so..

 

Indeed. The shadow didn't win even when the Champion of Light failed or went over. Those other people weren't as worthless as all that, seemingly, and managed to make up for the loss of the Champion.

 

What would have happened if LTT had not done anything? The man only acted when he believed Shadow was going to win for sure. Yet, Latra vehemently opposed his plan. To what end?

 

To the end that saidar wasn't tainted also and the world wasn't destroyed?

[Bob T Dwarf]

No she doesn't, at least not yet. Cause if Rand makes the wrong move then the world will be well and truly screwed. And it is possible. The normal person would freak out if they heard Rand planning to do such a thing, and Egwene, though the Amrylin, would still be considered a normal person.

 

NO, she's not a normal person. She's the Amyrlin Seat. She's supposed to be one of the "big picture" types. That's in the job description.

 

Here's some big picture stuff to chew on -

The Dragon has faced this situation before, she hasn't.

She doesn't have the knowledge, training, or experience to decide whether Rand is making a mistake or not.

In fact she doesn't know diddly about how to proceed and neither does anybody else.

 

Except the Dragon.

[WhiskyJack]

RJ never said that shadow has won even once in Randland so..

 

Indeed. The shadow didn't win even when the Champion of Light failed or went over. Those other people weren't as worthless as all that, seemingly, and managed to make up for the loss of the Champion.

 

Are you saying light won when Dragon went over?

 

What would have happened if LTT had not done anything? The man only acted when he believed Shadow was going to win for sure. Yet, Latra vehemently opposed his plan. To what end?

 

To the end that saidar wasn't tainted also and the world wasn't destroyed?

 

Only if we could raise this discussion to adult level. I am done with this. No point in arguing when it lacks any substance or logic.

[Bob T Dwarf]

What I'm saying is that there has to be a leader, and since the Dragon is the one reborn for this task, the one with the knowledge, the talent, and the power to pull it off, the only one to have given any thought to how to go about it, it's good to let him lead and get out of his way. It's better to fall in and march where he leads.

 

Even when the Pattern is telling you via prophetic Dreams, which you know by experience that you can rely on, that what the Dragon says he intends to do will doom the world?

Also, if the Dragon can make fateful mistakes, why is it good to get out of his way when you see him making one?

 

In the end, only AMOL will resolve our argument, I am afraid. IMHO, there is a reason why Egwene had to be set up in the position she is currently in and to be immune to Rand's ta'veren influence as she is in ToM. Let's agree to disagree until then.

 

Eggy seldom has any idea what her dreams really mean. Post the passage with that dream in it.

 

Beyond that, how is Egwene qualified to decide what is a mistake and what isn't?

[Terez]

Wow. So much arrogance in this thread.

 

News flash, guys: Rand and Moridin are MERGING. They are becoming the SAME PERSON.

 

Egwene says she thinks that a small part of Rand KNOWS that he shouldn't break the seals. That's why he told her about it - so she could try to stop him.

 

Have you guys read book 6 by chance?

[Terez]

Oh, and as far as Rand having a plan goes...he doesn't. His plan is basically: I'm going to break the seals, tada! He even thinks to himself that he's going to break them no matter what Egwene does. But he doesn't have a plan beyond that at all. He begs Min desperately to find the answer for him, and that might even be why he thinks he warned Egwene what he was going to do a month in advance. So she could figure out what to do after that, because he has no freaking idear. And she might well do it - Dominic (at rafo.com) has a theory that Egwene's skills in Tel'aran'rhiod will play a big part in the end, perhaps specifically the sealing of the Bore.

 

But Rand has no plan. He has confronted the madness within his own soul - his denial that he was Lews Therin - and thus he has become SuperRand. The clouds part for his presence, and flowers bloom. But Nynaeve looked into his mind, and it's freaking scary, folks. The Light in his brain is protecting him from at least most of it, but the darkness still has thousands upon thousands of hooks in him. It will have consequences.

[JenniferL]

Wow. So much arrogance in this thread.

 

News flash, guys: Rand and Moridin are MERGING. They are becoming the SAME PERSON.

 

Egwene says she thinks that a small part of Rand KNOWS that he shouldn't break the seals. That's why he told her about it - so she could try to stop him.

 

Have you guys read book 6 by chance?

 

As much as I would like to see Terez phrase her rebuttal in a less flame baity manner, I have to agree. Moridin and Rand are connected. http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/79

[JenniferL]

Here's the thing that baffles me about this Egwene argument and I don't think I've seen it mentioned, or least not often. Egwene doesn't know Rand anymore. The last time she saw him was what, LOC? Alot has happened to Rand since then that Egwene isn't aware of. She knows he was flippin nuts and starting to hear voices in his head. She knows about Dumai's Wells, but she doesn't know about Semi blowing his hand off or his mountain climbing expedition. She knows about the Cleansing, but only second hand. As far as she knows, this guy has finally lost it. We know Rand is right and is stable because we're able to be in his head and we know what he knows. I think she's wrong in her assumptions about Rand, but I understand why she's made those assumptions.

 

I also think Rand is playing her. He didn't tell her his plan or bring her into his confidence. I think he's letting her do the work of uniting the remaining nations for him. Dude barely has time to eat breakfast these days, much less be a diplomat. Much better to get Egwene to do it for him and leave him more time to go through his 12 Step program.

[Terez]

Wow. So much arrogance in this thread.

 

News flash, guys: Rand and Moridin are MERGING. They are becoming the SAME PERSON.

 

Egwene says she thinks that a small part of Rand KNOWS that he shouldn't break the seals. That's why he told her about it - so she could try to stop him.

 

Have you guys read book 6 by chance?

 

As much as I would like to see Terez phrase her rebuttal in a less flame baity manner, I have to agree. Moridin and Rand are connected. http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/79

haha, sorry. I kinda saw the posts before mine as being flame-baity, with all this insinuation that Rand is the only important person in the world right now, and that everyone else had better respect his AUTHORITAY. I sense some Egwene-hate! But we did that a few weeks ago on Theoryland...

 

Also, that article could stand a reference to this:

 

TITLE - The Eye of the World

CHAPTER: 24 - Flight Down the Arinelle

 

"A dream!" Rand shouted. "This is a dream!"

 

Ba'alzamon's eyes began to widen, in surprise or anger or both, then the air shimmered, and his features blurred, and faded.

 

Rand turned about in one spot, staring. Staring at his own image thrown back at him a thousandfold. Ten thousandfold. Above was blackness, and blackness below, but all around him stood mirrors, mirrors set at every angle, mirrors as far as he could see, all showing him, crouched and turning, staring wide-eyed and frightened.

 

A red blur drifted across the mirrors. He spun, trying to catch it, but in every mirror it drifted behind his own image and vanished. Then it was back again, but not as a blur. Ba'alzamon strode across the mirrors, ten thousand Ba'alzamons, searching, crossing and re-crossing the silvery mirrors.

 

He found himself staring at the reflection of his own face, pale and shivering in the knife-edge cold. Ba'alzamon's image grew behind his, staring at him; not seeing, but staring still. In every mirror, the flames of Ba'alzamon's face raged behind him, enveloping, consuming, merging. He wanted to scream, but his throat was frozen. There was only one face in those endless mirrors. His own face. Ba'alzamon's face. One face.