Discuss The Full Book

[Stevros]

I thinnk it is really funny that there are almost 500 replies to this thread and the book isnt even out yet hahahaha

 

but about how far into the book does mat and co go to the Tower oG? just curious.

 

and is slayer dead now?

 

chapter 53.

 

No not dead, but pretty badly injured (at least not dead onscreen, which in this series pretty much means still alive)

[Sharaman]

I thinnk it is really funny that there are almost 500 replies to this thread and the book isnt even out yet hahahaha

 

but about how far into the book does mat and co go to the Tower oG? just curious.

 

and is slayer dead now?

 

chapter 53.

 

No not dead, but pretty badly injured (at least not dead onscreen, which in this series pretty much means still alive)

 

The book's out in many places and has been since early last week, the US is apparently one geography where it's not.

Slayer's seen very much alive onscreen.

[Stevros]

I thinnk it is really funny that there are almost 500 replies to this thread and the book isnt even out yet hahahaha

 

but about how far into the book does mat and co go to the Tower oG? just curious.

 

and is slayer dead now?

 

chapter 53.

 

No not dead, but pretty badly injured (at least not dead onscreen, which in this series pretty much means still alive)

 

The book's out in many places and has been since early last week, the US is apparently one geography where it's not.

Slayer's seen very much alive onscreen.

 

yep forgot the scene where Grendal orders the ambush to still go ahead, was thinking the last time we saw him he had a knife in the gut.

[Stevros]

Just had a thought, does anyone reckon Taim was 13x13'ed. Ok he had a shady past when we first saw him, and it seems likely that the BA had a hand in his escape. However the fact remains that he did give the seal to Rand. This to me makes no sense. Given that it seems two people at BT have been 13x13'ed its my thinking that these may not be the only ones, others in Taim's group could have been too; this leads to the question why not Taim himself. It may explain why he gives the seal to Rand shortly before people are being murdered so the shadow can get their hands on the seals.

[Tervvo]

Simply from a writing point of view, we have a character who pretty much thinks she's invincible. The next logical step. then, is to pull the rug out from under her and see what she does. After all, the bigger the obstacle a character overcomes, the more impact overcoming it has. If she can pull herself together after losing Gawyn (who would, of course, use the rings to save her life), that would be simultaneously heartbreaking and epic. I think Sanderson has the chops to pull it off, judging from what I've seen in WoT.

 

 

 

 

 

Egwene went through hell in her captivity in the White Tower,a lesser person would have been broken.

[Jeangray]

Just had a thought, does anyone reckon Taim was 13x13'ed.

 

Well, from what we have seen in ToM, it is very noticeable when people are 13x13. Which explains why it wasn't used much more widely in the past against various prominent channelers or to increase the ranks of the BA.

As to the Seal, IMHO it was relatively meaningless. Seals were crumbling anyway, so giving one to Rand in a show of loyalty wasn't a big deal. It is possible that whoever was behind Herid Fel's murder reconsidered the importance of the Seals later - if the things that DFs looked for by Dobraine and Bashere were indeed the Seals. It is far more likely that they were looking for Choedan Khal, though.

[Stevros]

Just had a thought, does anyone reckon Taim was 13x13'ed.

 

Well, from what we have seen in ToM, it is very noticeable when people are 13x13. Which explains why it wasn't used much more widely in the past against various prominent channelers or to increase the ranks of the BA.

 

However one of the signs in Tarna is her eyes.

 

Knife of Dreams - Epilogue, remember the old saying

"Follow me," he said curtly in a Tairen accent. His eyes were like augers.

This is the first of Taim's asha'man that Pevara sees then later in the chapter, when she meets Taim:

His eyes.... She had only thought the Tairen's eyes were augers.

 

Ok this is not a lot to go on but by RJ's standards he's given us less to go on before.

 

 

 

 

On another topic I'm not sure if this is me coming up with a loony theory because I don't want Perrin to die or what, but here goes:

 

Slayer is the Broken Wolf:

"Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one who death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers"

 

Basis. I think Isam at least must have been a wolfbrother (possibly Luc too, but not sure) as he seems to share with wolves that after death he can remain in TAR, however he clearly is not of the light, this means that either he was a DF or being a wolfbrother, darkhounds turned him? Hence upon death he still lives in TAR, yet not being of the light means he is not a wolfbrother, but a broken wolf.

Another thing is that the way the prophecy talks about the one eyed fool (most likely Mat), then first among vermin (possibly Fain) then the fallen blacksmith (probably Perrin) then the broken wolf, would it change the way it is written and mention one of them twice by a different name.

Slayer also knows Moridin (death).

 

Could thinking this refers to Perrin be a miscomprehension on the shadows part or am I clinging at straws here???

[Crael123]

I thinnk it is really funny that there are almost 500 replies to this thread and the book isnt even out yet hahahaha

 

but about how far into the book does mat and co go to the Tower oG? just curious.

 

and is slayer dead now?

 

chapter 53.

 

No not dead, but pretty badly injured (at least not dead onscreen, which in this series pretty much means still alive)

 

The book's out in many places and has been since early last week, the US is apparently one geography where it's not.

Slayer's seen very much alive onscreen.

 

 

okay so how many chapters are there then? and how many chapters give or take are they in the tower

[Stevros]

think its 57 chapters (not including prologue and epilogue)

its about 2 chapters in ToG (they are pretty awesome ones though)

[Crael123]

think its 57 chapters (not including prologue and epilogue)

its about 2 chapters in ToG (they are pretty awesome ones though)

 

JUST 2???? AHHH they better be epic.

 

 

and thanks to everybody who answered my questions and spoilers :biggrin: yal are great

[Darth Krewl]

On another topic I'm not sure if this is me coming up with a loony theory because I don't want Perrin to die or what, but here goes:

 

Slayer is the Broken Wolf:

"Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one who death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers"

 

Basis. I think Isam at least must have been a wolfbrother (possibly Luc too, but not sure) as he seems to share with wolves that after death he can remain in TAR, however he clearly is not of the light, this means that either he was a DF or being a wolfbrother, darkhounds turned him? Hence upon death he still lives in TAR, yet not being of the light means he is not a wolfbrother, but a broken wolf.

Another thing is that the way the prophecy talks about the one eyed fool (most likely Mat), then first among vermin (possibly Fain) then the fallen blacksmith (probably Perrin) then the broken wolf, would it change the way it is written and mention one of them twice by a different name.

Slayer also knows Moridin (death).

 

Could thinking this refers to Perrin be a miscomprehension on the shadows part or am I clinging at straws here???

 

IMO, Fain has never been the "First Among" anything or anyone. The man's a wildcard, working on his own agenda and following his orders from no one, since Mordeth possessed him. Fain is the equivalent of Gollum. And, like Gandalf said, "he may yet have a part to play before the end" and an important one at that, to be sure. But the thinking here is that Fain's gonna do something dramatic and unpredictable that should tip the scales in one side's favor by surprise. Just like "Sméagollum" did.

 

Someone suggested that this "First Among the Vermin" line is a twisted reference to the Dragon having been the "First Among Servants" in the previous age (in other words, Rand/Lews Therin), which IMO, is a much better possibility.

 

As for the Broken Wolf, what about Elyas Machera? He's a proven Wolfbrother and his fall from grace (from powerful Warder to lost wanderer with no apparent destiny) strikes me as a good enough reason to refer to the man as "broken". Plus, I don't think it's been proven that he's no Darkfriend (hey, if Verin was one and Sorilea is suspected to be one, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that Elyas Machera is a Darkfriend, too).

 

Betrayal at the hands of a close friend and mentor figure would be an awesome surprise and a much better way to hinder Perrin (he doesn't necessarily have to be killed by this, but just seriously hampered or sidelined) than having him lose to an enemy whom he's already faced and defeated twice. It wouldn't be the first time that Perrin has been easily fooled (Galina, Morgase) and, at this point, he seems to have become a force to be reckoned with; not that easy to beat if/when he can suspect an imminent threat. Slayer obviously poses the kind of threat that Perrin would be ready to face...again.

[Stevros]

Someone suggested that this "First Among the Vermin" line is a twisted reference to the Dragon having been the "First Among Servants" in the previous age (in other words, Rand/Lews Therin), which IMO, is a much better possibility.

 

As for the Broken Wolf, what about Elyas Machera? He's a proven Wolfbrother and his fall from grace (from powerful Warder to lost wanderer with no apparent destiny) strikes me as a good enough reason to refer to the man as "broken". Plus, I don't think it's been proven that he's no Darkfriend (hey, if Verin was one and Sorilea is suspected to be one, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that Elyas Machera is a Darkfriend, too).

 

Betrayal at the hands of a close friend and mentor figure would be an awesome surprise and a much better way to hinder Perrin (he doesn't necessarily have to be killed by this, but just seriously hampered or sidelined) than having him lose to an enemy whom he's already faced and defeated twice. It wouldn't be the first time that Perrin has been easily fooled (Galina, Morgase) and, at this point, he seems to have become a force to be reckoned with; not that easy to beat if/when he can suspect an imminent threat. Slayer obviously poses the kind of threat that Perrin would be ready to face...again.

 

I like your theory about first among vermin, but i'm not so sure about Elyas, especially since he's left Perrin.

 

I'm not sure why you think that the broken wolf has to be killed by Perrin, if it is Elyas then does he have to be a DF especially if what you say about Rand is true (the other 3 in the verse are all of the light)

[Stevros]

I'm just wondering if Mat 'winning' in the ToG made it possible to win the game snakes and foxes; ie. his ta'vern nature has twisted the world in such a way that his victory has changed the fundamentals of the game.

[KefkaPalazzo]

Just had a thought, does anyone reckon Taim was 13x13'ed.

 

Well, from what we have seen in ToM, it is very noticeable when people are 13x13. Which explains why it wasn't used much more widely in the past against various prominent channelers or to increase the ranks of the BA.

 

However one of the signs in Tarna is her eyes.

 

Knife of Dreams - Epilogue, remember the old saying

"Follow me," he said curtly in a Tairen accent. His eyes were like augers.

This is the first of Taim's asha'man that Pevara sees then later in the chapter, when she meets Taim:

His eyes.... She had only thought the Tairen's eyes were augers.

 

 

Umm, the "eyes like augurs" line just means that they're very piercing, like they're trying and succeeding to stare you down. Military folks all tend to have eyes like that. You have a walking weapon of mass destruction who is not happy with Pevara's presence, and Pevara knows he's just waiting for the order to kill. Of course Pevara's going to notice the glare painted on his face. She's going to notice Taim even more so. Looking at the description of Taim's face, it looks like it's made for the death glare to begin with.

[Seminoles]

Ok, everyone is all up in the body swapping and the 13x13 deal. Well, devils advocate argument here.

 

The DO is body snatching the followers of the Shadow.

 

Why?

 

See Perrin witnessing the black darkness almost consume Rand on DM during his VoG moment. Think Venom/Spiderman?

 

See the final prophecy and look at whats happening at the BT..matches our 3rd paragraph nicely. Also why would a 13x13 make the person learn quicker? It wouldn't. Now if you're a semblance of the DO..well you know everything.

 

See Graendal POV on Moridin (Did he just sound like the DO??)

 

See Lanfear via Rands vision - "He has me.." "He flays me" He is the DO ..now here is where it gets fun. Who holds her soul? Moridin.

 

See Ishmmael - Believed himself the DO, completely mad.

 

See Moridin - the conversation they have in TGS Think about it. Why would Ishammael be at the pinnacle of a thousand lives a thousand battles crossing time infinite with Rand? Ishy was just a Forsaken, not even said to be Tavereren. How does someone that isn't special in any meaningful way stay alive that long and stay in service/not get bale fired? He doesn't.

It's Lord of Morning vs Lord of Evening(the DO) Not Lord of Morning vs Ishammael.

 

Again recall the Lanfear scene with Rand "He comes! The Shadow in EVERY Man's mind, the murderer of truth."

 

Well, obviously the shadow in every mans mind is the taint, the taint is the DO, the taint tried to swallow Rand. The taint did swallow Ishhammael(He was mad as a hatter and believed himself the DO). Then he is reborn, as a puppeteer buddy inhabited by the DO? (Have we ever seen the black lines connected to Moridin? Dont think so, cuz the DO doesn't need protection from the DO. Also of course since Moridins arrival, TP restricted to Moridin. No need to share his power with others now that he has form, except of course Rand - his arch enemy - so he could consume him.

 

ALSO Remember in the book. A man came to the Aelfinn/Eelfinn to retrieve Lanfear. They said it plain as day, Moraine wasn't who he seeked. Who were we told retrieved Lanfear from that realm? OOhhhh ya, that's right.. THE DO.

 

Also see this "WinespringBrother: Is Shaidar Haran an avatar to the world beyond the Bore?

 

Jordan: I am not certain you can really call him an avatar because I generally think of an avatar as having exactly the same powers as, and it is not, Shaidar Haran does not have nearly as much power as the Dark One. Its as though the Dark One is able to project shadowy form of himself into this creature. It is the Dark One in shadowy form.

 

See his second to last point "Its as though the DO is able to project shadowy form of himself into this creature" Whose to say Moridin isn't the same at this point, and others are following suit (BT again). And others of the shadow will become the same as he is able to influence the world more.

 

So my point is, it isn't a 13x13 deal going on. Just the DOs influence on the Shadow..they become him, in a way.

Hehe. Crazy?

[shizuoka]

 

 

Slayer is the Broken Wolf:

"Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one who death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers"

 

Basis. I think Isam at least must have been a wolfbrother (possibly Luc too, but not sure) as he seems to share with wolves that after death he can remain in TAR, however he clearly is not of the light, this means that either he was a DF or being a wolfbrother, darkhounds turned him? Hence upon death he still lives in TAR, yet not being of the light means he is not a wolfbrother, but a broken wolf.

Another thing is that the way the prophecy talks about the one eyed fool (most likely Mat), then first among vermin (possibly Fain) then the fallen blacksmith (probably Perrin) then the broken wolf, would it change the way it is written and mention one of them twice by a different name.

Slayer also knows Moridin (death).

 

Could thinking this refers to Perrin be a miscomprehension on the shadows part or am I clinging at straws here???

 

 

I like your theory about the Broken Wolf being Slayer. It makes sense. Perhaps Isam or Luc was a wolfbrother who despised turning into a wolf so much that he turned to the Dark for a way out? That's why he's always hunting wolves and not only that, appears to enjoy it immensely. My little theory.

 

Anyway, everyone else in the Prophecy.

 

One-Eyed Fool - Mat for sure

 

First Among Vermin - I immediately thought Egwene aka First Among Servants... but the prophecy refers to this person as a male.

And the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy

So I'm pretty sure it's referring to the Dragon who also has the same title.

 

Him who will Destroy - The Dark One... Rand will destroy the seals to "bring freedom" to him

 

Fallen Blacksmith - Perrin

 

Death - Moridin

 

Lord of the Evening - Another name for the Dark One? Not sure...

 

Broken Champion - Rand again?

[Elend]

Lord of the Evening is likely the Dark One.

 

What's interesting is that he's given the opposite title that the Dragon has (Lord of the Morning). Perhaps it refers to Moridin instead? Or hints at the true nature of the Dragon soul?

[OptimusPrime]

I think the Dark One can possess True Power users, and that Shaidar Haran is the name of a Fade given True Power access and made taller. What I wonder about... is that in that RJ interview he said "Its as though the Dark One is able to project shadowy form of himself into this creature. It is the Dark One in shadowy form" ... I think that the Superfade is called Shaidar Haran, the Hand of the Dark, and that the Dark One can possess Shaidar Haran 24/7 unlike other True Power users because the ability to possess is hindered by the ammount of humanity the True Power retains, and Shaidar being a Fade means he had little to begin with. So the Dark One can possess Shaidar 24/7 and that produces the BOOMING VOICE away from Shayol Ghul as we have seen; the Dark One could possess Moridin, but that would be slightly harder because at the end of the day Moridin still has some human in him, if not much. And Rand could be possessed, he WOULD be the hardest of the three to possess because hes only used it once... except I think Rand will instigate this possession to create a window for the Dark One to be hurt by mortal wounds, enter Narishma and Alivia with Callandor.

 

But then again Ive not read ToM so I dont know if any of that has been disproved. But if it was anywhere near accurate, then I would begin to question the Watchers identity all over again, because there was no legitimate reason to keep the Watchers name from us unless we were supposed to wonder about how many True Power users there were. So the Watcher may be Moridin, but if it isnt, Id say that it isnt Shaidar, it is the part of the Dark Ones mind that can he intends to use to possess True Power users; Shaidar, Moridin or Rand, it makes no difference, that part of the Dark Ones mind I think is not Shaidar. Shaidar is the Fade given True Power access, a body for the Dark One in case there are no other avenues into the wield ie True Power users. The Hand that holds a portion of the Dark.

 

So... would anyone be willing to confirm the BUT?

[Darth Krewl]

I'm not sure why you think that the broken wolf has to be killed by Perrin, if it is Elyas then does he have to be a DF especially if what you say about Rand is true (the other 3 in the verse are all of the light)

 

Okay, seems to me like I may have not chosen the right words to explain my point. Lemme see if I can illustrate my idea better...

 

I don't think that this Broken Wolf (whomever he may be) has to be killed by Perrin or viceversa. I'm just saying that, since Perrin is a Wolfbrother, thinking that he'd be linked to the Broken Wolf of Shadow Prophecy somehow, makes sense.

 

As for Elyas being a Darkfriend, I'm not sure either (and I hope not, I like the guy). I just think that the name Broken Wolf could apply perfectly well to him, given his sad back story. IMO, Machera does feel like the closest thing to a "Broken Wolf"...unless this Prophecy is not a metaphor for a human (Wolfbrother or otherwise) and refers to the broken spirit of a literal wolf, like Hopper, for instance or is even a metaphor for Perrin's new hammer (named after the same broken wolf -Hopper- precisely).

 

Now, if it were Slayer (like you've suggested) then that would mean that the prophecy does imply that the Broken Wolf is a creature of the Shadow, indeed.

[Sharaman]

Changing topic:

Urgently hanging plotlines for AMoL

a) Who cleans up the BT mess?

We know from the Dreamspike business that it is now clearly being taken over by Moridin. Dreamspiking means it can't be reached all that easily from outside.

(Though there's a hint that you can give "permission" to Travel even in/ out of a Dreamspiked area).

Also there are male dreadlords backing the Shadowspawn invasions (though that could be turned red-veiled channelers), so there's evidence that BT turned-Ashaman are already being used.

What's with the sudden increase in power for Taim's new acolytes? Moridin offering saidin angreals, I guess.

Plus there are a lot of loonies (not necessarily DFs) floating around.

AFAIK, a turned channeler can't be "unturned" normally though Nyn or somebody else (even Rand-LTT), may have an answer to that.

Can Androl (why the backstory with a mysterious past?), Emarin (is this Algiarin? Seems to be and since he's a nobleman he probably has several names), Pevara and the rebel AS do the job?

I'm guessing there will be some sort of bloody confrontation here.

 

b) Caemlyn - the assault seems to be occurring while everybody's at the Field of Cloth of Gold meeting. If we believe Avi's vision, there's an indirect indication that Talmanes manages to prevent the dragons falling into the Shadow's hands. Or do the armies at the Field Travel back to Caemlyn?

 

c) Tarwin's Gap -- Does Nyn arrive while this battle is on with sufficient force to make a difference? Or does she find a way of resuscitating Lan? Or does he die, leaving her preggers as Min's visions suggest?

[saterade]

My big question about what I have just read is this.... Why call it Towers of Midnight? Why not call it something about forging perrin into a man or something that the story is actually about? I didn't read anything in this story about towers of midnight, except that shadow prophecy at the very end, and the beginning wind (that is not THE beginning, but is A beginning) wooshing its way through 13 not-mentioned-afterward black towers in Seanchan. Anybody care to illuminate me?

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

My big question about what I have just read is this.... Why call it Towers of Midnight? Why not call it something about forging perrin into a man or something that the story is actually about? I didn't read anything in this story about towers of midnight, except that shadow prophecy at the very end, and the beginning wind (that is not THE beginning, but is A beginning) wooshing its way through 13 not-mentioned-afterward black towers in Seanchan. Anybody care to illuminate me?

 

Didn't somebody upthread mention Egwene's dream of seeing the thirteen black towers, which she took for the Forsaken? Then, seven of them crumble, and one of the remaining six grows super huge. I'm sure when we look back after reading AMoL, the title for this book will seem appropriate. The question is, which of the remaining Forsaken will that big tower be? Not Moghedien, not Graendal, but I can see it being Moridin or Cyndane or Demandred. With Moridin and Cyndane in question mark status, Demandred is the only remaining Forsaken badass who hasn't fallen flat on it.

 

Boy, poor Demandred fans. I'm pissed off enough about having to wait another year to learn what happens to Cyndane; the Demandred people have been waiting for practically the whole series. You just know it's going to end up being one of those one-sentence things tucked into the end of AMoL: "And then, on the Last Day, Demandred came along, and he crushed the Light with the weight of the carcasses of his dead, until Rand balefired him, and then he was utterly no more."

[Blademaster56]

The big tower is moridin. He is naeblis and is above the other forsaken.

[ColeOfCentauri]

Ok, I haven't been on the forum for a short while, and I haven't yet read the content here. If this stuff has been discussed already, then I apologize for the redundancy.

 

Right before Towers of Midnight comes out on Tuesday, let me make some predictions about what will be revealed in the book.

 

1) Graendal spoiled all the food in Bandar Eban; it wasn't Rand's negative ta'veren.

 

2) Graendal killed Asmodean (at least, I think his fate will be disclosed here).

 

3) Katerine has been dead since shortly after her escape in TPoD. Mesaana killed her and has since been taking her form using a sophisticated 2nd Age mirrors weave that the Aes Sedai can't read.

 

4) Rand will speak to Egwene and the Sitters in a gathering of the Hall. During that meeting, there is one question he should ask them. "Could you talk to me about the plans and ideas you had for cleansing the taint on saidin?" That's logically the way to convince them that their control of him would've been a disaster.

 

5) Lanfear died in the Tower of Ghenjei, but either the Aelfinn allowed Moiraine to live or she eluded them. She is unable to channel, but has not been stilled and will regain the ability when she is rescued.

 

Again, all of these aforementioned things are NOT spoilers. They are my premonitions that I am stating just for fun. What's your opinion of them?

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

The big tower is moridin. He is naeblis and is above the other forsaken.

 

Quite possibly, but it seems almost too obvious to conclude that the big tower means Nae'blis. Also, the timing seems rough. Why didn't his tower grow big until there were only six towers left, if rising to Nae'blis is what that action represents? I really gotta read ToM for myself before I can wade into the discussion full-throttle. One day more!