Noal.... Jain Fairstrider?

[Sharaman]

I'll concede that we actually know next to nothing about the matter. But it seems to me that there are quite a lot of Malkieri surnames in circulation. Is the same true for Nepal?

 

It's a clannish mountain society. Every village has a preponderance of specific names, which tell you (well anyone who knows a bit about Nepal) what the villagers predominantly do as a profession (agriculture, banditry, trade) and their religion (Animist, Hindu, Buddhist, usually). So if you know the clan name, you can place a guy by the exact region (as in Limbus are originally Eastern Nepal) and an ancestral profession (warrior).

 

It's true to a greater / lesser extent for the entire sub-continent. You have bunches of maybe 20-30 million people who know instantly whether they are related to each other (related by Indian standards, not Western - Indians have specific words to describe relationships like maternal second cousin born of mum's younger/ older male/female cousin) simply from the clan name.

 

If you keep the surname, you can get away with changing the first name because they don't all know each other personally, obviously.

It's like let's say, a guy called X Negi meets someone called Y Khanduri; they both know they are from the Garhwal-Kumaon region from their last names. If they chat together, they will find villages/ relatives in common. If a guy called Z Siral (from the same region) tries to pretend he's a Negi, he will get caught in any casual conversation with a Negi. However, if Z Siral wants to call himself X Siral, he will not get caught because there are a lot of Sirals and he can answer questions about origins without any problem.

 

I hope this makes sense to you. It is why your belief that changing surnames makes more sense to hide out is wrong from the perspective of 1 billion-odd people.

[nwash_10]

Funky fact: in tDR, Mat notes that Rand and Perrin have read Jain's book and liked it, but he himself hasn't gotten around to it.

 

 

That's because Mat doesn't know how to read :)

[yoniy0]

I hope this makes sense to you. It is why your belief that changing surnames makes more sense to hide out is wrong from the perspective of 1 billion-odd people.

Okay, I can see how that might work (yet we should remember that Randland populace doesn't come anywhere near those numbers).

Tell me, though. If one has the likes of Jain Farstrider in one's tribe, wouldn't one expect to discuss him in any meeting with a fellow Malkieri, under that system? COULD Jain hide simply by changing his first name?

[Erelvar]

thats one of the things that had me wondering if not only he was Jain, but also if maybe he either hadn't been punished by something he did, or maybe the Aelfin had something to do with it. Also he did say that he has been to Sahara, on the other side of the Aiel Wast. Occording to things i've read that whole area is actually controlled by Aes Sedai. So there is no telling what kind of things were done to him over there.

[Sharaman]

I hope this makes sense to you. It is why your belief that changing surnames makes more sense to hide out is wrong from the perspective of 1 billion-odd people.

Okay, I can see how that might work (yet we should remember that Randland populace doesn't come anywhere near those numbers).

Tell me, though. If one has the likes of Jain Farstrider in one's tribe, wouldn't one expect to discuss him in any meeting with a fellow Malkieri, under that system? COULD Jain hide simply by changing his first name?

 

It would be even more difficult if not outright impossible to change clan name effectively in smaller populations, when everyone knows each other.

Noal doesn't have a problem discussing Jain -- he knows as much about him as required.

More importantly (if I'm correct) he knows enough about the Charins to satisfy another Malkieri that he is a Charin.

He may not know enough about the Bukama or Ryne clans.

 

If I may draw from personal anecdote, in my class of 50 in school, there were 35-odd surnames, 10-12 mother tongues, 7 religions - perfectly normal. None of us had a problem keeping the basics straight and we wouldn't have a problem discussing Heroes of any of the given communities. But we would have had problems with details of X community hails from Y village, and that family married into this family. That's where a clan-based society makes it difficult to create a cover ID or break ranks.

[yoniy0]

Fine, you got me. No more objections here

[Barid Bel Medar]

I hope this makes sense to you. It is why your belief that changing surnames makes more sense to hide out is wrong from the perspective of 1 billion-odd people.

Okay, I can see how that might work (yet we should remember that Randland populace doesn't come anywhere near those numbers).

Tell me, though. If one has the likes of Jain Farstrider in one's tribe, wouldn't one expect to discuss him in any meeting with a fellow Malkieri, under that system? COULD Jain hide simply by changing his first name?

 

It would be even more difficult if not outright impossible to change clan name effectively in smaller populations, when everyone knows each other.

Noal doesn't have a problem discussing Jain -- he knows as much about him as required.

More importantly (if I'm correct) he knows enough about the Charins to satisfy another Malkieri that he is a Charin.

He may not know enough about the Bukama or Ryne clans.

 

If I may draw from personal anecdote, in my class of 50 in school, there were 35-odd surnames, 10-12 mother tongues, 7 religions - perfectly normal. None of us had a problem keeping the basics straight and we wouldn't have a problem discussing Heroes of any of the given communities. But we would have had problems with details of X community hails from Y village, and that family married into this family. That's where a clan-based society makes it difficult to create a cover ID or break ranks.

 

I will take up yoniy0 arguement. I ahve one more problem with it.

 

Why would Noal use the Charin surname with Mat.

 

None of the people with him are Malkieri, they wouldnt know the difference if he told them he was Jesus Christ.

Mat and co. dont even know he is Malkieri, let alone even suspect him of being Farstrider. Unless he WANTS Mat to know, he could call himself anything he wanted and noone would be any wiser. If he wanted Mat to find out, why on earth wouldnt he just say it outright?

 

If he is embarassed about being Farstrider, he could change his name completely, so there is no point.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I hope this makes sense to you. It is why your belief that changing surnames makes more sense to hide out is wrong from the perspective of 1 billion-odd people.

Okay, I can see how that might work (yet we should remember that Randland populace doesn't come anywhere near those numbers).

Tell me, though. If one has the likes of Jain Farstrider in one's tribe, wouldn't one expect to discuss him in any meeting with a fellow Malkieri, under that system? COULD Jain hide simply by changing his first name?

 

It would be even more difficult if not outright impossible to change clan name effectively in smaller populations, when everyone knows each other.

Noal doesn't have a problem discussing Jain -- he knows as much about him as required.

More importantly (if I'm correct) he knows enough about the Charins to satisfy another Malkieri that he is a Charin.

He may not know enough about the Bukama or Ryne clans.

 

If I may draw from personal anecdote, in my class of 50 in school, there were 35-odd surnames, 10-12 mother tongues, 7 religions - perfectly normal. None of us had a problem keeping the basics straight and we wouldn't have a problem discussing Heroes of any of the given communities. But we would have had problems with details of X community hails from Y village, and that family married into this family. That's where a clan-based society makes it difficult to create a cover ID or break ranks.

 

I will take up yoniy0 arguement. I ahve one more problem with it.

 

Why would Noal use the Charin surname with Mat.

 

None of the people with him are Malkieri, they wouldnt know the difference if he told them he was Jesus Christ.

Mat and co. dont even know he is Malkieri, let alone even suspect him of being Farstrider. Unless he WANTS Mat to know, he could call himself anything he wanted and noone would be any wiser. If he wanted Mat to find out, why on earth wouldnt he just say it outright?

 

If he is embarassed about being Farstrider, he could change his name completely, so there is no point.

[Erelvar]

and the answer to that question is this. because of nynaeve. she talks about lan being who he is in front of noal. at least thats what i think. plus didn't lan show up in ebou dar before noal did? therefore if that happened then lan would know. right?

[chuckievi]

And anyone who has any sense of planning ahead would know that it is possible to run into a Malkieri. As such he would want to get his "cover story" straight and then stick to it. If you are trying to take on a different ID it needs to be able to hold in all situations, so you build it with the strictest situation in mind, ie running into a Charin who may be out there still. It isn't just about Matt and who he is with, it is about the ID that he has assumed and wants to be able to keep using regardless of the situation he finds himself in.

 

To put it in an example. If I show up somewhere and end up traveling with a group of people and use an alias, call it James Bond, no one there may know it is false. However if I am going to be around those people, who will then mix with other people, I don't want to run into someone else who knows me as Jason Bourne.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well thats fair enough. I conceed it.

 

Still, even though your explanations make perfect sense and are most likely correct, I am still hesitant.

 

Why wouldnt he just use another Malkieri surname.

 

Alot of possibilities why he wouldnt, but this is based on the fact Malkier is basically the copy of Napalese culture. There is a lot of supposition and supposed relation to real life culture. Also, Malkier is pretty much gone. There are few Malkieri left in the world, basically only Lan and AS outside of the Borderlands. Also, we assume that Malkieri can recognize other Malkieri on sight and that random Malkieri would question strangers about their clan in depth. From my recollection, nothing phyiscallly makes Malkieri distinct, its the Hadori and attire that makes a Malkieri. Noal just looks like an old man. Its a bunch of suppositions and remote possibility.

[yoniy0]

There's the matter of accents. Mat would probably be able to tell that Noal was a Borderlander, and not much beyond that, but any fellow Borderlander is sure to recognize a Malkieri accent. There aren't a whole lot of people still alive who speak like that anymore. Lan himself sounds of Shainar, if memory serves.

[Erelvar]

i dont remember if they say that he sounds like a Shainar, but what you said about the Hadori and Kiwsana is true. But Nynaeve also dropped lan at the bottom of the borderlands so that he could go to Tarwins Gap. Then she went into town and told that merchant that Malkeri rides again, and who would follow him (Lan). She then said that she had other towns to go to before going back to Tear. So my guess is that the Malkeri people as a whole are just scattered throughout the realm. That could be why Noal did what he did. Knowing that at anytime he could run into another Malkeri. I know the spelling is wrong on Malkeri, lol. Please forgive me.

[Barid Bel Medar]

There's the matter of accents. Mat would probably be able to tell that Noal was a Borderlander, and not much beyond that, but any fellow Borderlander is sure to recognize a Malkieri accent. There aren't a whole lot of people still alive who speak like that anymore. Lan himself sounds of Shainar, if memory serves.

 

Indeed, your most likely correct, but ill argue for the hell of it

 

Do we know that there is a distinct Malkieri accent? It seems more like a collective borderland accent.

 

Noal hasnt really been round Malkieri the last 30 or so years. He has travelled to Shara and the creator knows where. I doubt he would retain a recognizable Malkieri accent after that long in foreign places. Of course, its possible he could be a person who retains his accent in life, but again, its all hapstance and supposition.

 

I do understand and even agree with the arguements, but its all too casual for me. By the logic supplied, this is the situation he would have to be in to be discovered.

 

1. The assumption of "clan names" (which we have NO evidence of, apart from someone saying its based on Nepal) needs to be true.

2. Noal comes into contact with a knowledgeable Malkieri (most of the Malkieri decendants are half blooded and forget the old ways, remember) in Shara or the rest of the world. When Malkieri people are exteremly rare.

3. The Malkieri would have to pick him out of a crowd, and interrogate him about his clan to prove he is lying when there is no reason.

4. Noal has to look/speak/act like a Malkieri for anyone to notice, which we have no evidence of apart from assumptions.

 

It is just really far streched logic.

[Erelvar]

my guess is that the aelfin and the elfin will end up telling mat that noal is Jain when they go to the Tower of the Ghenji. AT least thats my guess as to how Noal will be unmasked as Jain. Either that or Moiraine will say something when they go to rescue her.

[yoniy0]

Do we know that there is a distinct Malkieri accent? It seems more like a collective borderland accent.

Yes, we know that the different Borderlands have different accents. Read New Spring (the novel or the short story, it makes no difference) again, the part when Lan first returns to the Borderlands.

 

Noal hasnt really been round Malkieri the last 30 or so years. He has travelled to Shara and the creator knows where. I doubt he would retain a recognizable Malkieri accent after that long in foreign places. Of course, its possible he could be a person who retains his accent in life, but again, its all hapstance and supposition.

You're joking, right? A grown man doesn't usually lose his accent completely.

 

I do understand and even agree with the arguements, but its all too casual for me.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I said that I accepted that Sharaman might be right, not that I agree that he is. I still lean towards Noal being Jain's cousin.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Do we know that there is a distinct Malkieri accent? It seems more like a collective borderland accent.

Yes, we know that the different Borderlands have different accents. Read New Spring (the novel or the short story, it makes no difference) again, the part when Lan first returns to the Borderlands.

 

Noal hasnt really been round Malkieri the last 30 or so years. He has travelled to Shara and the creator knows where. I doubt he would retain a recognizable Malkieri accent after that long in foreign places. Of course, its possible he could be a person who retains his accent in life, but again, its all hapstance and supposition.

You're joking, right? A grown man doesn't usually lose his accent completely.

 

I do understand and even agree with the arguements, but its all too casual for me.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I said that I accepted that Sharaman might be right, not that I agree that he is. I still lean towards Noal being Jain's cousin.

 

Yeah, your correct. A grown man doesnt usually lose his accent completely. But that doesnt mean it isnt distorted etc., but yeah, thats beside the point here.

 

i will have to read NS again, havent read it in a time. I stand corrected.

 

And yeah, I really do hope he is Jain's cousin. That would be a kick in the face to everyone who thought it was soooooooo obvious. Just like Taim= Demandred, Olver = Gaidal Cain. Hopefully it becomes one of them.

[yoniy0]

Exactly. If we're wrong it's no big deal, it was a longshot to begin with. But, if we're right... Young maidens will sing our names in the centuries to come. That's why I like this theory so much.

[Crael123]

I think he is... i am curious to see how Graendal's compulsion plays into the story

[chuckievi]

No offense to your theory, but it is more like Cyndane =/= Lanfear than an Olver = Gaidal or Taim = Dem. Just saying :p

 

Oh yeah, I went there!

[Barid Bel Medar]

No offense to your theory, but it is more like Cyndane =/= Lanfear than an Olver = Gaidal or Taim = Dem. Just saying :p

 

Oh yeah, I went there!

 

Hahaha, fair enough. Good call.

 

Although technically.... We dont have a PoV from Noal saying he was held by the finns and that he loved LTT.

 

So it is a bit different...

 

Taim=Demandred is much more like Noal=Jain (before it was proven false. There a heap of evidence pointing to it, but nothing that confirms anything.

 

So i would say technically, its much more similar to Taim=Demandred than the Cyndane =/= Lanfear case. :biggrin:

[Erelvar]

i still don't believe that cyndane is lanfear. we haven't had a POV from her at all so there really isn't a way to tell. if there is something in one of the books to say that she is lanfear let me know. i've not seen anything though.

[GYLD]

There actually was a Cyndane POV during the Cleansing. She confronts Alivia who is armed with an angreal and Cyndane thinks to herself that Alivia is even more powerful than she was before the Finns held her, which all but says she is Lanfear if you recall a certain ter'angreal a certain someone tackled Lanfear into.

[Erelvar]

you were right, i just reread that chapter that you were talking about. it is lanfear...though why she is weaker in the power than before i have no clue. i didn't think it was possible for the DO to cut someone's strength in the power.

[chuckievi]

you were right, i just reread that chapter that you were talking about. it is lanfear...though why she is weaker in the power than before i have no clue. i didn't think it was possible for the DO to cut someone's strength in the power.

 

Burned out from falling through the twisted doorway while channeling through the angreal sitting on the cart, followed by healing from a woman thus not healing her all the way.