Will Moridin have his memories now?

[Tom Sawyer]

So, Rand has all the memories of the previous Dragon lives now. Back at the beginning of the series, Ishamael remembered all his previous lives and all the various fights he's had with Rand, but at the beginning of PoD when he was playing chess (with himself because he's a big meanie who doesn't have any friends), he was bitching about how he doesn't have these memories anymore. He remembers being Ishamael and, based on his reaction to no longer having these memories, he remembers that he used to have them.

 

Moridin has the link to Rand and all those memories of their previous battles are a significant advantage for him to have. It's kind of ... less heroic ... to have a main hero who has such a significant advantage over the main villian, so I'm wondering if Rand's new ability to access his previous lives will give Moridin the ability to have the access to his own that he had back when he was Ishamael.

 

Thoughts?

[Crael123]

I doubt the Link is that deep yet. All it really is is Moridin's emotions in Rand and possibly vice versa.

[PaulChauvet]

Maybe I'm missing something (if I am, excuse my ignorance) but what evidence do we have that:

- Ishamael's source of his own past lives is his own past memories, and not information that the Dark One told him?

- Rand's memory of past lives goes beyond Lews Therin Telamon (or did I misunderstand what you said when you mentioned 'past lives')?

 

I really didn't get anything from tGS that lead me to believe more than just Lews Therin & Rand's memories were combined.

[Tom Sawyer]

Didn't it say at the end of TGS that he remembered all of his lives? That was the sense that I got. Sort of like a Birgitte-type thing.

 

Ishamael talked about all those old lives like he was talking from personal experience, so it seems he knew them. Also, Moridin remembers everything about being Ishamael, so if the DO had just filled him in about the previous lives, I don't see why he wouldn't know that stuff as well as he knows that Lanfear's kind of a loose screw who needs watching. He's pissed off that he doesn't have these memories and feels that they are his by right and is aware of their loss. Everything indicates that he had those memories as Ishamael and no longer has them as Moridin.

[Sharaman]

Elan- Ishamael-Moridin is one "life" - he's been transmigrated but without a break in consciousness.

Also he had gone nuts over a 3K lifetime. That might have given Elan-Ish-Mor access to his previous lives, just as it did to Rand-LTT.

[Tom Sawyer]

But Rand got access to his lives when he became sane. When he was going nuts, he just had the voice of one of them in his head.

 

And yes, Moridin just got transmigrated from Ishamael and it's one life. In the Ishamael part of that life, however, he had these memories and in the Moridin part he didn't. Also, of all the terms you could use to describe Moridin, "not nutty" isn't one of them.

[Sharaman]

But Rand got access to his lives when he became sane. When he was going nuts, he just had the voice of one of them in his head.

 

And yes, Moridin just got transmigrated from Ishamael and it's one life. In the Ishamael part of that life, however, he had these memories and in the Moridin part he didn't. Also, of all the terms you could use to describe Moridin, "not nutty" isn't one of them.

 

Semirhage seemed to think Rand could have access to more than one life because he was nuts, though she said Graendal would know more about it.

Where is it said, or how do you deduce, that Moridin doesn't have access to Ishamael-Elan's memories?

[Tom Sawyer]

As I said in the OP, it's in the prologue of PoD. He spends time bitching to himself about it. He remembers being Ishamael, but he's angry that he doesn't know what the origin of the Fisher is since it's one of Rand's previous lives and those memories should be his by right.

[Mr Ares]

Ishamael never had any memories that weren't his, so far as has been revealed. Since becoming Moridin, that hasn't changed. He might not be happy about this, but it has always been thus.

[Tom Sawyer]

What do you mean he didn't have memories that weren't his? They were all he talked about in the first two books. The whole "You think I haven't faced this before?", "We've done this a thousand thousand times", "You've made that choice sometimes in the past", etc.

[Zyntras]

What do you mean he didn't have memories that weren't his? They were all he talked about in the first two books. The whole "You think I haven't faced this before?", "We've done this a thousand thousand times", "You've made that choice sometimes in the past", etc.

 

don't forget he was 1. a scolar and 2. mad

 

he has mostlikely deduced all he said above, or got input by the DO, there is no evidence whatsoever he actualy had those memories.

[Tom Sawyer]

There's no evidence that he was lying about them either, so no reason not to take what's in the books at face value. When he saw Perrin with the wolf and said that he'd faced that before, it was a clear statement that he'd faced Rand when Rand was a wolfbrother and remembered it well enough to know what to expect if Perrin were the Dragon. All his statements about the thousands of lives were made with the indication that he remembered them quite well and Rand couldn't throw anything at him that he hadn't seen before and there was nothing in the books to indicate that he'd just been pulling that out of his ass or working off of second hand knowledge.

 

If the books say one thing and they don't say another thing, you can't take the two things as equally likely. One of them's part of the story and the other isn't.

[PaulChauvet]

As I said in the OP, it's in the prologue of PoD. He spends time bitching to himself about it. He remembers being Ishamael, but he's angry that he doesn't know what the origin of the Fisher is since it's one of Rand's previous lives and those memories should be his by right.

 

Bah - I need to do another reread of PoD. I think my last reread... skimmed.. at best books 7/8/10.

[chuckievi]

There's no evidence that he was lying about them either, so no reason not to take what's in the books at face value

 

To quote an interview with RJ

 

Question: Ishamael mentions in prior Turnings of the Wheel that the soul of Lews Therin was raised up as the Shadow's champion, and if that is the case, who was the champion of the Creator?

Jordan: You believe Ishamael??? Sorry, man, but c'mon!

 

That is some reason to not take him at face value...

[OptimusPrime]

What I think about Ishamael is that channeling the True Power is like having the Dark One passing through you and that it leaves a remnant of his will behind each time. The more you do it, the more like him you begin to act, until there are times where you think you ARE the Dark One, having gone through YOUR experiences. I do think its possible that Moridin could have gained past life memories through his connection to Rand, but I find it more likely that Moridin has gained the memories of the person whose body he got, rather than the memories of his own past lives. Unless it was a result of the connection to Rand.

[Sharaman]

Rand was a wolfbrother?

[OptimusPrime]

There's no evidence that he was lying about them either, so no reason not to take what's in the books at face value

 

To quote an interview with RJ

 

Question: Ishamael mentions in prior Turnings of the Wheel that the soul of Lews Therin was raised up as the Shadow's champion, and if that is the case, who was the champion of the Creator?

Jordan: You believe Ishamael??? Sorry, man, but c'mon!

 

That is some reason to not take him at face value...

 

Ezactly. Judge his deeds not his words. He lies all the time, but he does it for a reason, he has an objective and he lies to get it.

[jdbond]

Rand seemed to recall his past lifes while he was conversing with LTT/himself. We don't know if he was sane at that point or not. LTT ceased to exist in his mind at the end of tGS. What about other things like past lifes he remembered? Did they disappear from his mind too?

 

Ishameal, being a theologian came to believe that fight between good and bad is going on forever. Also being a nutter, he came to believe that he was the DO and that he and Dragon has fought countless battles before. He didn't actually remember his past lifes.

[Tom Sawyer]

Ishameal, being a theologian came to believe that fight between good and bad is going on forever. Also being a nutter, he came to believe that he was the DO and that he and Dragon has fought countless battles before. He didn't actually remember his past lifes.

 

Where do people get this idea? I don't remember anything that suggested that Ishamael was lying when he made all those references to the previous lives, like having faced a wolf brother before. Is there a quote for this?

[Guest BaLefireP]

Rand was a wolfbrother?

Rand himself was not a wolf brother, however a Dragon age’s before him was. When Moridim saw Perrin with the wolf it brought back the memory of the Dragon being a Wolf brother.

 

Therefor proving that he DID have memories of past lives and ages at one time.

 

(I think)

[Sharaman]

Rand was a wolfbrother?

Rand himself was not a wolf brother, however a Dragon age’s before him was. When Moridim saw Perrin with the wolf it brought back the memory of the Dragon being a Wolf brother.

 

Therefor proving that he DID have memories of past lives and ages at one time.

 

(I think)

Moridin saw Perrin and remembered a Dragon that was a wolfbrother? Which book?

[Jon Paul]

Rand himself was not a wolf brother, however a Dragon age’s before him was. When Moridim saw Perrin with the wolf it brought back the memory of the Dragon being a Wolf brother.

 

Therefor proving that he DID have memories of past lives and ages at one time.

 

(I think)[/color]

 

What? No.

 

Elan simply says he's faced Wolfbrothers before.. and as far as I understand, Elan has fought with others besides the Dragon. Wolfbrothers were not unknown in the Age of Legends. Perhaps Elan came into conflict with a Wolfbrother of middle rank in Lews Therin's command? The World of Dreams was as much a battleground as the waking world after all.

 

I think Elan's claims to having faced the Dragon a thousand times a thousand times are much deeper. I don't think Elan ever lost control of himself, even with the partial sealing.. Demandred commented often on how Elan began to think of himself as the Great Lord.. and really Elan is the Great Lord. He's simply a manifestation in the Wheel of what the Dark One is. I think in a way Elan meant more that.. his philosophy of nihilistic chaos and what the Dragon is, a self-correction mechanism of the Wheel, have fought a thousand times a thousand times. Not Elan personally.

 

And if Elan did mean it in a literal manner, he obviously had a rather inflated ego !

[Tom Sawyer]

Well no, he didn't have an inflated ego (well, he did, but not in relation to this situation), he simply had accurate memories of being the DO's champion and going through this fight a few million times. I really don't know of any passages which suggest that he was lying about that.

 

Were their wolf brothers in the AoL? It would seem like a fairly pointless ability given what we know of that conflict.

[Jon Paul]

Well no, he didn't have an inflated ego (well, he did, but not in relation to this situation), he simply had accurate memories of being the DO's champion and going through this fight a few million times. I really don't know of any passages which suggest that he was lying about that.

 

You have nothing but Elan's words to testify to this though. And remember, he was playing the part of the Dark One at the time, not himself. There is no objective reasoning to there being a predestined soul to fight for the Dark One that I can see.

 

I think it detracts from Elan's mystique when something such as being the predestined Nae-blis is attributed to him. It's much scarier to imagine that in a previous life he was a farmer, not the nihilistic-captain of the Shadow.

 

Were their wolf brothers in the AoL? It would seem like a fairly pointless ability given what we know of that conflict.

 

What would be pointless about the ability? The War of the Shadow went from something like a nuclear war between Moscow and Russia to a tavern brawl. Their technology regressed, their methods became more crude. And the World of Dreams was an important battlefield of channellers. Being a Wolfbrother could be quite handy.

 

But as to it existing.. the Green Man recognised Perrin for what he was.

[Tom Sawyer]

Ya, but everyone who could channel could run around the dream world whenever they chose and ter'angreal were available to everyone else. One more guy in there because of the wolves isn't really all that much of an added value. It's like Delta Force soldiers being glad that not only do they have air support, but there's also that kid with a slingshot running around to help them out. It just doesn't give any benefit worth mentioning.

 

Even in the current age, the wolf brother thing was cool in the first couple of books, but once the Asha'men came along and the Wise Ones started getting into the fight, Perrin's powers got fairly pointless. Given the more advanced powers and weaponry available in the AoL, they'd be even more pointless back then.