Spiders and Webs on the surface of the Void, Sammael, ACoS ch 41

[Swithin]

Hey guys, this is my first topic. I'm actually running on a sleep-deficit right now, so if I say anything stupid I'm hoping it will be corrected quickly.

 

I was re-reading chapters out of chronological order this morning, just reminiscing with favorite scenes, when I started to notice a few patterns I hadn't seen before. Soon enough (of course) I had a vague notion that there was something I had been missing, and started fitting together a bit of a theory. I'm too tired to do the appropriate research and preparation to present the whole thing, but one component is an image RJ repeated over and over: when Rand acts impulsively or rashly while in the Void, he feels something red or black "skittering on the surface". I'll try to find more examples, here are two:

 

In ACoS ch 41, when Rand notices Dashiva ogling Min as she walks away, he opens a gateway uncomfortably close to Dashiva in retaliation:

Maybe having a hand sliced off would teach the man not to lick his lips like a goat. Something crooked and red spiderwebbed across the outside of the Void.

 

In PoD ch 24, when Rand picks up Callandor to use against the Seanchan and does his "I am the storm" bit, the following:

 

Something spidered across the outer surface of the Void, a wriggling black web. He was afraid.

 

I'm going to look for more instances of this imagery. I'm not sure if it's been discussed, but I think I may have originally dismissed these lines as reiterations of the language RJ used for Void-suppressed emotions (outside the Void, etc.) or the Taint-effect. The more I think about it, the less likely the simple explanation seems. The pairing of spiderwebs and checkered patterns with the colors red and black is a recurring thing (the Snakes and Foxes game-board, Moridin's palace, Taim's palace, and I'm sure others I'm not calling to mind in my tiredness.)

 

I might find some time to flesh this out, but I can't really stand behind my initial thoughts without textual evidence. The direction I'm heading, though, is to think that the Taint does not simply cause madness, but rather imparts either some level of control over an individual to the DO, or that Rand is under some other form of Compulsion controlled by the DO, SH, or Moridin. My reason for thinking this is that I think Rand was "pushed" into attacking Sammael when he did, even though he had been planning to assault Illian weeks later. It was a spur of the moment decision, which surprised all five of his Asha'man (Dashiva, Adley, Flinn, Narishma, and Morr,) as well as Bashere. He made sure no-one outside this group knew he was leaving Cairhien, and those with him did not have a chance to warn Sammael. Although Sammael appeared surprised that he was attacked, his defenses required time for preparation - that is, unless he was sending a constant stream of trollocs and myrddraal through the SL waygate to be eaten by Mashadar every single night not knowing which wave would be needed.

 

Re-reading ACoS ch. 41, I don't see how Sammael could have prepared his trollocs in SL in time and gated back without Rand noticing after his first alert that he was being attacked - Encyclopaedia WoT lists the time between Rand et al arriving at the Square of Tammuz in Illian and Rand detecting Sammael as a matter of "hours", probably based on the sun's position in Caemlyn and Rand's noting of twilight in Illian. However, I don't think this is necessarily accurate, given his observations of troop movements through the city streets, the descriptions of the sun's position in three different geographical locations, and Bashere's comments that the fighting was resolved quickly and the Council of Nine was "anxiously" awaiting Rand's return from his SL trip. While Rand spent probably ten to fifteen minutes in SL, and thirty minutes Skimming back, the EWoT timeline would describe hours of fighting and at most 45 minutes of waiting by the council, while the text seems to imply that the ratio is the opposite, little fighting and much waiting. I find it more consistent that Sammael appeared within just a few minutes of Rand stationing himself on the tower, and he seemed desperate not only to pull Rand away so as to kill him in the trap, but also to do it quickly so as to salvage his rule (Rand even says that his LTT memories make it clear that Sammael won't give up anything to which he has a claim, however tenuous.) It doesn't make sense for him to sense Rand in his capital, then surreptitiously *leave for hours to throw up the same weaves he had in Illian and co-ordinate a crappy force of Trollocs in SL*, and then come back to deal with the invasion when he could instead just blast the sources of the giant threads of Power on top of towers with lightning right then and there. Besides, if Sammael wanted inverted wards in SL, he could place them in broad daylight weeks in advance. And as for sending shadowspawn through the ways: what a waste of time!

 

But shadowspawn were there at SL. Someone had to have sent them. Beyond that, they must have served a purpose... but other than drawing Rand's fire to trip wards (which, I grant, they succeeded at doing exactly once,) what could the purpose be? Well... they drew out Mashadar like nobody's business. In fact, they were much more successful at doing that than at pinpointing Rand. Sammael very much did not want to have to deal with Mashadar. He had a plan already: set up wards (done beforehand,) make a stand at the Waygate, kill Rand himself (which he's wanted to do since forever,) not get eaten by Mashadar.

 

Ok, so if it's absolutely the worst thing Sammael could have done (which it was,) then who would have sent these shadowspawn? It would have to be someone who meets the following criteria:

 

1. Knows that shadowspawn attract Mashadar

2. Knows when Sammael and Rand would be at Shadar Logoth in advance

3. Doesn't mind ruining Sammael's plan (in other words, wants Rand to walk into it, but not to die)

4. Possibly wants Sammael himself dead

 

Moridin fits all these criteria. He's the only Forsaken who has directly observed Aridhol's decline into Shadar Logoth. He's there at Shadar Logoth, mysteriously at just the right moment, to save Rand when he goes and falls through a floor. He knows Sammael's plan (which he also tells Rand, indirectly.) He encourages Rand to kill Sammael, leaving him with the final words "a great many plans will have to be relaid if you let yourself be killed here now." Wait, what? If the DR dies, just *whom* would Moridin need to relay plans *for*?

 

All of these are explainable, except for the following: how did he know when Rand would attack Illian, and furthermore, when Rand would appear in Shadar Logoth? It's unlikely he was there by chance, and he wouldn't be lounging in Shadar Logoth Nae'blis or no. He knew in advance, and the only possible way for this to be true... is if he knew before Rand did.

 

So, is there a precedent for Rand's actions being directly manipulated by the DO? At this point, I can only think of one, also from ACoS. In Chapter 2, Rand picks an Asha'man to accompany him seemingly at random:

 

"One," Rand cut in. "And I will choose." Taim smiled, spreading his hands in acquiescence, but the scent of frustration nearly overwhelmed anger. Again Rand pointed without looking. "Him." This time, he seemed surprised to find he was pointing directly at a man in his middle years sitting atop an upturned cask on the other side of the wagon circle, paying no attention to the gathering around Rand. Instead, elbow on his knee and chin propped on his hand, he was frowning at the Aes Sedai prisoners. The sword and Dragon glittered on the high collar of his black coat. "What is his name, Taim?"

 

"Dashiva," Taim said slowly, studying Rand. He smelled even more surprised than Rand did, and irritated, too. "Corlan Dashiva. From a farm in the Black Hills."

 

"He will do," Rand said, but he did not sound sure of himself.

 

Rand did not pick out the one legitimate Forsaken out of all the Asha'man at random, without looking. Nuh-uh. Something manipulated him. Possibly ta'veren-ness, but I think this is less a fluke than a well-laid plan. We also get the added benefit of reading this through Perrin's POV. Taim is seriously ticked that Dashiva got in on the first try, and tries to talk Rand into a better choice. Cornered, Rand makes a stand on Dashiva, almost as if he were compelled to do so...

 

Anyway, it's loony at the moment, but I'll look for more evidence. I don't think this is the "big unnoticed thing" (it starts in book 7, for one,) but now that we've seen Rand go Dark and Light, I think it's interesting to ponder that he may have been played earlier than we thought.

 

So... thoughts?

[Moon Sedai]

Rand did not pick out the one legitimate Forsaken out of all the Asha'man at random, without looking. Nuh-uh. Something manipulated him. Possibly ta'veren-ness, but I think this is less a fluke than a well-laid plan. We also get the added benefit of reading this through Perrin's POV. Taim is seriously ticked that Dashiva got in on the first try, and tries to talk Rand into a better choice. Cornered, Rand makes a stand on Dashiva, almost as if he were compelled to do so...

 

Yeah, I've always thought there was something to Rand picking Dashiva out of all the Asha'man present.

 

I think Taim might have been upset iit is possible that Dashiva was teaching Taim in the same way as Asmodean taught Rand- First age tricks and such. (that is, if Taim is not of this age).

 

I'd be irritated to if my secret First Age Teacher in all things Dark One was taken from me by The Dragon Reborn aka "my rival."

[Luckers]

The use of the things going across the surface of the void are fairly constant, and Rand attributes colours and odd styles to them in other instances. For example, I found two other instances that sounded somewhat similar, but were more normal.

 

He pressed his left leg against Tai'daishar's flank just to feel the long bundle strapped between stirrup leather and scarlet saddle cloth. Every time he did that, something wriggled across the outside of the Void. Anticipation, and maybe a touch of fear.

 

[tPoD; 22, Gathering Clouds]

 

What about me? Rand thought again. It was nearly a snarl, and no less vicious for falling short. Wrapped in the Power as he was, anger spiderwebbed across the outside of the Void, a fiery lace.

 

[aCoS; 7, Pitfalls and Tripwires]

 

I think these webs are just indicative of Rand mental state--or, more directly indicative of the instability of Rand's mental state. Red and black are both associated with negative emotions, and in both situations Rand is being particularily nasty. I might have been inclined to think they were a reference to the link with Moridin due to it being red then black except one occurs before that link forms.

 

It's an interesting little tidbit though. We'll see.

[Demiandre]

A weave Amso put on Rand, magnifying some emotion? Or another chaneller? Could be important. If Rand's bad temper is coming from a king of Compulsion, it would be interesting. Because the temper isn't really related to his : "I shall become harder" paranoia.

[Val Mickey]

Very well put together.

 

If things are as you say, what was Sammael doing if not waiting for spawn to reach SL?

I must add that I find Sammael choosing an indefensible place to defend somewhat out of character for a General.

[Swithin]

It's Alanna. It's the bond. It has to be.

 

Alanna Mosvani, whom Verin (BA chronicler that she is) told Perrin not to trust.

 

I'm looking into this and will be updating this post, but I feel moderately triumphant. "Starts in book 7" yeah right! She was trying to bond Perrin from TSR, and Verin knew about it... I wonder how. ;) The BA had a plot to Compel all three ta'veren of interest through warder bonds so as to play into some FS's agenda.

 

Rand already has an incoming channel for Compulsion, just not very strong compulsion. And yet, in many key moments when he's about to make a grand decision, he gets uncharacteristically jerky and vindictive, and if he's holding the Void feels a red/black skittering outside it.

 

Alanna has been playing Rand since he was bonded. Whether she's a mastermind or patsy I don't know. Man I hope the evidence holds this up and I'm not making a fool of myself.

 

Double-checked, and it turns out Alanna heals Rand right before he chooses Dashiva. She's right there with him.

 

Yeah, I've always thought there was something to Rand picking Dashiva out of all the Asha'man present.

 

I think Taim might have been upset iit is possible that Dashiva was teaching Taim in the same way as Asmodean taught Rand- First age tricks and such. (that is, if Taim is not of this age).

 

I'd be irritated to if my secret First Age Teacher in all things Dark One was taken from me by The Dragon Reborn aka "my rival."

 

That's a good reason for Taim to be upset. It's also possible that he sees Dashiva as a rival, since Aginor is a "second chance" Forsaken fighting for another shot at a top spot - a spot Taim might be angling for himself. In the first case, Rand picking Dashiva would be a surprise to both Dashiva and Taim, while in the second scenario Dashiva would not be surprised. I'm leaning a bit torward the second at the moment.

[Barid Bel Medar]

It's Alanna. It's the bond. It has to be.

 

Alanna Mosvani, whom Verin (BA chronicler that she is) told Perrin not to trust.

 

I'm looking into this and will be updating this post, but I feel moderately triumphant. "Starts in book 7" yeah right! She was trying to bond Perrin from TSR, and Verin knew about it... I wonder how. ;) The BA had a plot to Compel all three ta'veren of interest through warder bonds so as to play into some FS's agenda.

 

Rand already has an incoming channel for Compulsion, just not very strong compulsion. And yet, in many key moments when he's about to make a grand decision, he gets uncharacteristically jerky and vindictive, and if he's holding the Void feels a red/black skittering outside it.

 

Alanna has been playing Rand since he was bonded. Whether she's a mastermind or patsy I don't know. Man I hope the evidence holds this up and I'm not making a fool of myself.

Considering Alanna isnt on her BA list, I would say its pretty weak.

 

Verin didnt miss many, and do you really think she would be missing the one who she was travelling with? No, I am afraid not.

 

Also, Verin would have said "OH hey Egwene. Rand is bonded by Alanna, she is BA, better tell him."

[Swithin]

Considering Alanna isnt on her BA list, I would say its pretty weak.

 

Verin didnt miss many, and do you really think she would be missing the one who she was travelling with? No, I am afraid not.

 

Also, Verin would have said "OH hey Egwene. Rand is bonded by Alanna, she is BA, better tell him."

 

Hrn. You have a seemingly irrefutable point there, and I really shouldn't have overlooked that.

 

I still think something is influencing Rand, and I'll be digging to see if it's possible it's through Alanna's bond. It's just too convenient a mechanism to alter his behavior (which I'm starting to think has been manipulated by the Dark) not to be of any consequence for the rest of the series, precisely at the moment I'm looking for the exact same type of thing.

 

Oh well, I don't hold the theory sacred. I still think there's smoke there though, I just have no idea about the fire's precise location yet.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Considering Alanna isnt on her BA list, I would say its pretty weak.

 

Verin didnt miss many, and do you really think she would be missing the one who she was travelling with? No, I am afraid not.

 

Also, Verin would have said "OH hey Egwene. Rand is bonded by Alanna, she is BA, better tell him."

 

Hrn. You have a seemingly irrefutable point there, and I really shouldn't have overlooked that.

 

I still think something is influencing Rand, and I'll be digging to see if it's possible it's through Alanna's bond. It's just too convenient a mechanism to alter his behavior (which I'm starting to think has been manipulated by the Dark) not to be of any consequence for the rest of the series, precisely at the moment I'm looking for the exact same type of thing.

 

Oh well, I don't hold the theory sacred. I still think there's smoke there though, I just have no idea about the fire's precise location yet.

 

It is quite possible (even likely) that the bond with Alanna has a bigger part to play, but I dont think she is manipulating it. She has been a complete mess since she bonded him. She admits numerous times she cant "control" him. But hey, it may be right.

 

As for Rand's altered behaviour. Well... thats pretty simple.

 

1. The Taint on Saidin.

2. He suddenly becomes a king and leader up against scheming nobles and Forsaken only a year or so after he was only a simple farmer in a lonley village.

3. Aes Sedai are trying to control him.

4. Darkfriends, Forsaken and the DO are up against him, messing with all of his plans.

 

All in all I would think the altered behaviour is plain as day.

[waffle]

perhaps this is the BUT

[Swithin]

Gah, Opera messed up twice while I was typing this (once didn't save, once I accidently hit Alt+X while hitting "save post". ARGH)

 

Alanna bonds Rand in LoC Chapter 10. The *very* next chapter is interesting, both in content and (primarily) form. I'll update this post, but I don't want to lose even this a third time. Hold on.

 

Ok, so LoC Chapter 11 is a two-POV chapter: Verin's and Rand's.

 

Part one: Verin has Alanna "sit down" for a little chat about Rand's plans for the BT, the necessity and inevitability that he will gather male channelers, how Verin and Alanna can influence this process positively, and that Verin has an idea on how to use the warder bond for best effect (fade to black.)

 

cut to

 

Part two: Rand meets with Taim, and agrees to let him Travel to recruit Asha'man on the condition that "If the time comes to kill Aes Sedai, I'll let you know. Until then, no one is to so mcuh as shout at one unless she's trying to take his head off. In fact, you're all to stay as far from Aes Sedai as you can. I want no incidents, nothing to put them against me." Smart move. Verin smart.

 

Alanna is not and has never been BA. Her confidante Verin, on the other hand... sneaky, loyal-until-the-hour-of-her-death Verin. Well, she was right there after Alanna bonded Rand, and suddenly he starts making moves consistent with Verin's (and the Dark's) interests. I don't think Alanna is a mastermind, I think she's Verin's patsy. Wondering why Alanna's bond seemed like such a small deal after it happened? Blink and you'll miss it: the next chapter shows just how subtle the effect is. Chapter 10 Rand is bonded, Chapter 11 shows Verin deciding to use the bond and Rand seemingly going about his business as usual <snicker>.

 

It might not be true, but it fits RJ perfectly. As well as later events. As well as gives Alanna's bond something to do, and fits perfectly with her later characterization (sullen, desperate to make contact but sorrowful and withdrawn at the same time - she doesn't *want* to manipulate him, but she no longer has a choice. She's been used to use him, and it sucks for her.)

[LazyMonk]

'The flame and the void'/'The Oneness' is basically a method for controlling emotions. What Rand does, as described more than once, is imagining the flame inside the void and feeding his emotions into the flame until they are gone and he is calm.

In order perform such a visualizing method, Rand must visualize his emotions as well. while in the void, he sees emotion as colored shapes inside and outside the void. those inside he 'burns' with the flame, those outside are flitting and he can disregard them.

 

I do believe you're looking too deeply into what is just how Rand visualizes his emotions.

[Swithin]

I really don't mean to spam my own thread, but I was going down the list to reply to people in one post when everyone started replying. For tidiness, I'll put all the responses in this post rather than re-integrating them into ones earlier in the conversation. I'm repeating the first one since I appended it a few posts ago (sorry if that's bad.)

 

Yeah, I've always thought there was something to Rand picking Dashiva out of all the Asha'man present.

 

I think Taim might have been upset iit is possible that Dashiva was teaching Taim in the same way as Asmodean taught Rand- First age tricks and such. (that is, if Taim is not of this age).

 

I'd be irritated to if my secret First Age Teacher in all things Dark One was taken from me by The Dragon Reborn aka "my rival."

 

That's a good reason for Taim to be upset. It's also possible that he sees Dashiva as a rival, since Aginor is a "second chance" Forsaken fighting for another shot at a top spot - a spot Taim might be angling for himself. In the first case, Rand picking Dashiva would be a surprise to both Dashiva and Taim, while in the second scenario Dashiva would not be surprised. I'm leaning a bit torward the second at the moment.

 

The use of the things going across the surface of the void are fairly constant, and Rand attributes colours and odd styles to them in other instances. For example, I found two other instances that sounded somewhat similar, but were more normal.

 

He pressed his left leg against Tai'daishar's flank just to feel the long bundle strapped between stirrup leather and scarlet saddle cloth. Every time he did that, something wriggled across the outside of the Void. Anticipation, and maybe a touch of fear.

 

[tPoD; 22, Gathering Clouds]

 

What about me? Rand thought again. It was nearly a snarl, and no less vicious for falling short. Wrapped in the Power as he was, anger spiderwebbed across the outside of the Void, a fiery lace.

 

[aCoS; 7, Pitfalls and Tripwires]

 

I think these webs are just indicative of Rand mental state--or, more directly indicative of the instability of Rand's mental state. Red and black are both associated with negative emotions, and in both situations Rand is being particularily nasty. I might have been inclined to think they were a reference to the link with Moridin due to it being red then black except one occurs before that link forms.

 

It's an interesting little tidbit though. We'll see.

 

The two quotes you mention may be independent, but they might fall into the pattern. Certainly the quote from PoD ch 22 supports the same effect later seen in PoD ch 24, if Rand's Compulsion is "use Callandor to decimate the Seanchan." There are reasons why the DO would want Rand to do this, too. It makes Rand assert authority through violence, reinforcing the "tyrant king" mentality we've seen the DO effect upon Rand through the TP in TGS. Using the s'angreal also means he gets much more exposure to the taint, and the more reliant on it he becomes the better it is for the DO.

 

As for the quote in ACoS ch 7, it doesn't really seem to fit this theory except for one amusing tidbit. Rand has assumed the Void and held the Power for the purpose of opening a gateway, and the first thing that happens when Rand steps through that gateway and closes it:

 

Rand let the gateway close as soon as the remaining Maidens came through, right behind him, and as it winked out of existence, Lews therin whispered, She is gone. Almost gone. There was relief in his voice; the bond of Warder and Aes Sedai had not existed in the Age of Legends.

 

Of course, this doesn't mean anything by itself, but it's tantalizingly close, especially since no-one has mentioned Alanna in a while at this point.

 

Very well put together.

 

If things are as you say, what was Sammael doing if not waiting for spawn to reach SL?

I must add that I find Sammael choosing an indefensible place to defend somewhat out of character for a General.

 

Thanks, Val!

 

I don't think Sammael was ever waiting. Rand appeared in the Square of Tammuz with Saldaean shock-troops, immediately Travelled to the towers and spread out a whole bunch of threads of Power tripping all of Sammael's wards at once. If Sammael wasn't close enough to determine exactly where those gateways were going, and which was Rand's, how could he respond? Also, he was busy being Lord Brend at the time, and couldn't keep that persona active if he joined in a Power battle in front of whatever audience he had. All his alerts went off at once, he decided wisely not to use the Power before he knew what he was facing, so he took a minute or two to excuse himself in the panic and eyeball the situation. Then he attacked.

 

As for the plan at SL, well, it was crappy. Personally I think this theory actually redeems Sammy somewhat.

 

It is quite possible (even likely) that the bond with Alanna has a bigger part to play, but I dont think she is manipulating it. She has been a complete mess since she bonded him. She admits numerous times she cant "control" him. But hey, it may be right.

 

I actually think this helps better define why Alanna has been a mess. I've actually wondered before just why she seemed to fall to pieces, why she'd be so possessive over Rand as to become despondent and furious at his cutting her off and bonding his harem. It's said that she lost a Warder recently, but she still had one more. There just seemed to be too much emotion attached to her bond, but it didn't come across either as maternal or romantic, rather somehow desperate. I read it that she wanted validation from him, wanted him to 'replace' Owein, but that makes little sense (she's not a cat lady and he's not a cat, he's the DR and she's already shown she has the nerve to bond him against his will.)

 

Throw in Alanna realizing that he is the DR, wanting him to win, and being completely unable to resist being a tool of his destruction, it suddenly becomes a very messed up situation. She's lost a Warder, gained a new one who has inspired a surprising amount of admiration in her, and at the same time she's constantly betraying him. Assuming these things, her break-down has a legitimate cause.

 

As for Rand's altered behaviour. Well... thats pretty simple.

 

1. The Taint on Saidin.

2. He suddenly becomes a king and leader up against scheming nobles and Forsaken only a year or so after he was only a simple farmer in a lonley village.

3. Aes Sedai are trying to control him.

4. Darkfriends, Forsaken and the DO are up against him, messing with all of his plans.

 

All in all I would think the altered behaviour is plain as day.

 

This makes perfect sense. At the moment I'm just trying to fit the pieces of this line of thinking together so that they're consistent with the story. Rand's stresses are all valid without any extra pushing, but his anger and occasional dastardly thoughts being implanted/enhanced by an external agent fits into a larger picture alongside the above considerations without coming into conflict with any of them. Who knows?

 

'The flame and the void'/'The Oneness' is basically a method for controlling emotions. What Rand does, as described more than once, is imagining the flame inside the void and feeding his emotions into the flame until they are gone and he is calm.

In order perform such a visualizing method, Rand must visualize his emotions as well. while in the void, he sees emotion as colored shapes inside and outside the void. those inside he 'burns' with the flame, those outside are flitting and he can disregard them.

 

This is true, but what caught my eye is that certain ones use motifs normally reserved for Forsaken and the Dark. I've never really done the chasing-shadows game before, but even if this theory is complete bunk I'm trying not to invent evidence for it. At this point it's still just what the text suggests to me... if I start taping notecards to the walls and wearing a tin-foil hat I'll stop, promise. :)

 

I do believe you're looking too deeply into what is just how Rand visualizes his emotions.

 

It's always nice to run into a fellow Illianer. Go Bees!

 

Anyway, thanks for all the responses, guys. We'll get real answers soon enough, but something *has* to be up with Moridin helping Rand off Sammael, Rand choosing Dashiva, and Alanna's bond. Don't know if they'll actually be linked, but if we do figure something out before the next book drops it would be awesome.

[FarShainMael]

I suddenly have the gravest possible doubts about Verin, and those letters..

 

Perhaps, after all, she didn't poison herself. Perhaps it was the Mistress of the Kitchens who so obligingly provided the tea. Perhaps Verin did the only thing she could to strike back..

 

No. It won't work. What about her book of names of the BA?

 

[Swithin]

I suddenly have the gravest possible doubts about Verin, and those letters..

 

Perhaps, after all, she didn't poison herself. Perhaps it was the Mistress of the Kitchens who so obligingly provided the tea. Perhaps Verin did the only thing she could to strike back..

 

No. It won't work. What about her book of names of the BA?

 

 

Yeah, I'm lurking DM while trying to do homework... :P

 

If I'm following you correctly, you mean that Verin could actually have been BA to the core, and her 'conversion' at the end was faked for the sake of gaining trust and accomplishing a black-ops BA mission, right? I have a faulty sarcasm filter (but I know you're cool,) so I'm not sure if you mean to say that the theory requires Verin to be evil (or if you're disagreeing with it in a cute way.)

 

I don't think Verin was evil, just Oath-bound to report the bond and facilitate its use (and other BA access to it) for the DO's purposes, while still free to slip in potentially helpful and non-treasonous input as she could. Yeah, wow, this is sounding kinda kooky.

 

I hereby name this theory "The Manetheren Candidate". Any way to add that to the topic title? :D

[FarShainMael]

I know what you mean, my sarcasm filter gave up years ago Not surprising really, I had to cobble it together out of bits of string and chewing gum. (I may explain that one day!)

 

Yes, I am beginning to wonder exactly what our Verin was up to,and for the sake of the plot I would love for her to have been pulling some kind of fast one. I don't think it's quite as simple as that, though. After all, she dies, and we know that the FS in general are selfish in the extreme, and would never sacrifice themselves. Other people, maybe..

 

The book of BA names is the real problem. If that is genuine, as indeed Eg's investigations seem to show (getting AS to re-swear on the Oath Rod), then her giving it to Eg might be some sort of revenge against her murderer, whoever that is. (Tomas?) But the letters, now, that's another matter entirely. Perhaps the one she gave Mat will lead him straight into a trap of some kind.

 

I'm not sure. I'm thinking on my feet here. I need to digest this one for a bit.

 

(Since the topic is your own, you should be able to edit its title, I love 'The Manetheren Candidate'!!)

[Barid Bel Medar]

I know what you mean, my sarcasm filter gave up years ago Not surprising really, I had to cobble it together out of bits of string and chewing gum. (I may explain that one day!)

 

Yes, I am beginning to wonder exactly what our Verin was up to,and for the sake of the plot I would love for her to have been pulling some kind of fast one. I don't think it's quite as simple as that, though. After all, she dies, and we know that the FS in general are selfish in the extreme, and would never sacrifice themselves. Other people, maybe..

 

The book of BA names is the real problem. If that is genuine, as indeed Eg's investigations seem to show (getting AS to re-swear on the Oath Rod), then her giving it to Eg might be some sort of revenge against her murderer, whoever that is. (Tomas?) But the letters, now, that's another matter entirely. Perhaps the one she gave Mat will lead him straight into a trap of some kind.

 

I'm not sure. I'm thinking on my feet here. I need to digest this one for a bit.

 

(Since the topic is your own, you should be able to edit its title, I love 'The Manetheren Candidate'!!)

 

I am afraid there is no hidden meaning or unexpected twist this time.

 

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Borders Dallas 14 November 2009 - Aubree Pham reporting

 

Verin does have blood on her hands, but everything she has done has been for the greater good.

theoryland database.

 

Verin was exactly what she turned out to be. She wasnt murdered, she asked Egwene to thank Laras for the "soup". And she said that the poison was a last resort, but she couldnt find the oath rod so it was the only way.

 

Just have to put this down as "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"

[FarShainMael]

What a shame!

[haloun]

with all of the verin talk here i am beginning to see something else as well, especially since my BUT theory is compulsion. what if verin compulsed allanna? we see her with compulsion in TGH dont we? I think we need to look at that and think more what she compulsed allanna to do.

[Demiandre]

In TGH, It was Liandrin