Talmanes is Demandred! (Soylent Green is people!)

[Sharaman]

@Sharaman

First off, I would like to apologize for calling you a snob. I posted that shortly after reading it, and just shouldnt have posted it. Also I feel like I should clear up my Gateway theory. What I was trying to say was, they took a Gateway from Murandy to Altara. I wasn't saying that the Band didn't pass through the Dimones or the Landslide thing didnt happen when they were looking for Mat. I was just sayin Talmanes would have left the part out about the gateway. And if Mat found out about it he would have said oh yeah we took a gateway to Altara. Thus not having to swear anyone to secrecy. I don't think that they took a Gateway to get to Altara any longer because like I posted earlier. I didn't realize where Murandy was, I thought that it was further north.

 

Apology accepted. But you still seem to have read a different book. The border between Murandy-Altara is the Dimona mountains as KoD makes clear.

[didymos]

Also there is something suspicious about Talamenes we all can agree to that?

 

Um, no. What's the guy done to actually warrant suspicion? Be competent? Remain loyal to Mat?

The whole Roedran connection isn't suspect?

 

No, not unless you explain exactly why it's suspect in spite of all the very obvious and in-text reasons we have to think it's not. Talmanes had Mat's army to take care of and Mat to find. Roedran was south, Mat was south. It was a good gig to take, temporary, and he had no intention of doing any fighting and getting Mat's men killed. It also didn't place him under Roedran's command, and if you think Talmanes actually would have ever started taking orders from him, you're fooling yourself. He just had to sit around for a little while and look vaguely threatening. Which, when you're an army in foreign territory, isn't too hard to pull off. All in all, a very reasonable and responsible choice given his current circumstances and the fact that his standing orders (help Egwene escape the rebels) were meaningless and he had no way to get new ones.

 

What was he supposed to do? March straight into a conquered Ebou Dar with only the funds and supplies he had left after tailing the Aes Sedai for months and hope Mat was still there and what was left of the Band by then didn't get obliterated by the overwhelming Seanchan forces present? Keep uselessly following Egwene and help lay siege to Tar Valon, despite being completely unwanted and untrusted by the vast majority of the rebel AS (assuming Egwene would even let him follow, which is...not a very good assumption)? Attempt to march into Andor after the AS left and see how friendly the Andoran army still in his way felt like being? Beg the rebel AS to make a bunch of gateways before they left for Tar Valon so he and the Band could jump blindly into the middle of Altara? March to hell and gone looking for Rand and hope he knew where Mat was and also had some spare cash to feed thousands of soldiers and horses and keep all their equipment in working order? Seriously: what could Talmanes have done in your estimation at that point that wouldn't have been "suspect"? What was the "right" choice there?

 

Being competent automatically means good guy?

 

Did I say that it did? Also: that was mostly just sarcasm. The point being that Talmanes hasn't done much in narrative terms besides be competent, so if that alone is grounds for suspicion....

 

And for the loyal to Mat question, I point again to the Roedran situation.

 

That was just sarcasm too, but in this case, I also point to the Roedran situation, for the reasons outlined above. Roedran was a means to a Mat.

[Val Mickey]

To suspect the Roedran situation, you must first prove Roedran's guilt.

[didymos]

To suspect the Roedran situation, you must first prove Roedran's guilt.

 

Not enough in and of itself. You'd have to not only prove Roedran was on Team Shadow, but also that Talmanes knew he was and worked for him anyway. As it stands, Roedran using the Band as a bogeyman is actually a pretty shady move, but it's rather run-of-the-mill-shady as far as monarchial behavior in Randland is concerned. A bit OOC for Roedran in particular, sure, but for someone from Cairhien, which Talmanes is, it's rather yawn-inducing.

[Val Mickey]

Yes, but Roedran's guilt is an acceptable starting point.

[Sharaman]

The only major reasons to assume Roedran = demandred / R=DF is that he's been offscreen (as diligent WoT freaks know Demmy has been) and that he's a dissolute bloke, who has suddenly become militarily and politically smart.

Thin. I can offhand think of real-life characters like US Grant, and G K Zhukov, who drank regiments under the table. Also someone like Kate the Great who drank regiments under the table and screwed them to death, while being extremely smart politically and competent militarily.

Nothing we've seen of Demandred suggests he was dissolute as opposed to evil - comes through as a very focussed guy - he wanted to kill LTT and he had lusted after Ilyena. We haven't heard that Roedran has reformed-- so has Dem picked up a drinking habit to go with MoMirrors?

Roedran may be Demmy and he may be a DF but it's a thesis that has been pushed quite hard on not too much evidence.

[Jblaylock]

Though it has been the most common assumption, I still believe that Mazrim Taim is Demandred. It is so obvious that the initial reaction is to refuse it because it is not complicated enough, and that simplicity acts as a cloak of deception. Jordan did not specificaly deny it. Much like an Aes Sedai, he told the truth, though it may not have been the truth that we thought it was. It's Taim.

[didymos]

Though it has been the most common assumption, I still believe that Mazrim Taim is Demandred. It is so obvious that the initial reaction is to refuse it because it is not complicated enough, and that simplicity acts as a cloak of deception. Jordan did not specificaly deny it. Much like an Aes Sedai, he told the truth, though it may not have been the truth that we thought it was. It's Taim.

 

RJ said:

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton, OH - Matthew Julius reporting

Q: It's been said that you mentioned that Mazrim Taim is not Demandred. There seems to be some confusion on whether or not you said that.

RJ: Mazrim Taim is not Demandred.

 

That's as clear as it gets. Believe what you want, but Taim is not, never has been, nor will be Demandred.

[didymos]

Roedran may be Demmy and he may be a DF but it's a thesis that has been pushed quite hard on not too much evidence.

 

Seems to me it's based mostly in people not being able to come up with anything better. I.e., it's just a guess.

[Durinax]

The only major reasons to assume Roedran = demandred / R=DF is that he's been offscreen (as diligent WoT freaks know Demmy has been) and that he's a dissolute bloke, who has suddenly become militarily and politically smart.

Thin. I can offhand think of real-life characters like US Grant, and G K Zhukov, who drank regiments under the table. Also someone like Kate the Great who drank regiments under the table and screwed them to death, while being extremely smart politically and competent militarily.

Nothing we've seen of Demandred suggests he was dissolute as opposed to evil - comes through as a very focussed guy - he wanted to kill LTT and he had lusted after Ilyena. We haven't heard that Roedran has reformed-- so has Dem picked up a drinking habit to go with MoMirrors?

Roedran may be Demmy and he may be a DF but it's a thesis that has been pushed quite hard on not too much evidence.

well I find it very suspicious that he suddenly has his act together. Fits with what we know of demandred, that he has a secure rule, likes to have an army to play with, hasnt been on screen (to my knowledge)

[didymos]

well I find it very suspicious that he suddenly has his act together.

 

I do find that somewhat persuasive, but it just seems an odd choice. Regardless of how unified it gets, I just don't see it being much of a military power. Plus, Demandred has been out and about for a while, and it's only just now that Murandy is starting to actually behave like a nation...sort of.

 

Fits with what we know of demandred, that he has a secure rule, likes to have an army to play with, hasnt been on screen (to my knowledge)

 

But that's the thing: does he actually have a secure rule? We know that was Roedran's goal, but we've seen little evidence of it. And if that's not secure, then he has no army to speak of.

[Durinax]

Murandy has a large amount of standing veterens due to the constant fighting / risk of fighting between houses so uniting the land without a bunch of bloodshed means murandy has a substantial fighting force

[didymos]

Murandy has a large amount of standing veterens due to the constant fighting / risk of fighting between houses so uniting the land without a bunch of bloodshed means murandy has a substantial fighting force

 

And the evidence for these large amounts of veterans? Just because the nobles fight, even a lot, that doesn't mean they all have large numbers of soldiers at their disposal. Or, assuming they exist, that those soldiers are any actual good in a fight. There's also no guarantee they'll all automagically coalesce into a single, efficient and effective force, also assuming they do indeed exist.

[Jblaylock]

Though it has been the most common assumption, I still believe that Mazrim Taim is Demandred. It is so obvious that the initial reaction is to refuse it because it is not complicated enough, and that simplicity acts as a cloak of deception. Jordan did not specificaly deny it. Much like an Aes Sedai, he told the truth, though it may not have been the truth that we thought it was. It's Taim.

 

RJ said:

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton, OH - Matthew Julius reporting

Q: It's been said that you mentioned that Mazrim Taim is not Demandred. There seems to be some confusion on whether or not you said that.

RJ: Mazrim Taim is not Demandred.

 

That's as clear as it gets. Believe what you want, but Taim is not, never has been, nor will be Demandred.

 

 

 

I believe Jordan spoke as an Aes Sedai, for Mazrim Taim is not Demandred, but Demandred is Mazrim Taim. Mazrim Taim is not somebody who actualy exists, for it is only another name that belongs to the identity of Demandred. That's how I believe anyway. For instance, Bruce Wayne (not sure of the spelling) is Batman, but Batman is not Bruce Wayne. Batman does not go on dressing as and masquerading as Bruce Wayne. Bruce Wayne does all of that as Batman. Demandred is Mazrim Taim. But Mazrim Taim is a name, not an identity. That's my belief. Therefore, Jordan's statement was true, but not the truth you thought it was.

[ghoullio]

Demandred says his rule is secure as he prepares for battle just as the Children of the Light, who have yet to have been openly tainted with Forsaken or Darkfriends of any real value, gather their entire force and begin marching in a specific direction and no one connects the two?

 

Demandred is clearly running the White Cloaks show. They are a professional and venerated fighting force, quite possibly the most organized military next to the three Taveren and if not for the absence of channelers, could rival the Seanchan, once Taim brings his Ashaman to Demandred, this army would be an unstoppable force i the hands of someone like Demandred...

[didymos]

Though it has been the most common assumption, I still believe that Mazrim Taim is Demandred. It is so obvious that the initial reaction is to refuse it because it is not complicated enough, and that simplicity acts as a cloak of deception. Jordan did not specificaly deny it. Much like an Aes Sedai, he told the truth, though it may not have been the truth that we thought it was. It's Taim.

 

RJ said:

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton, OH - Matthew Julius reporting

Q: It's been said that you mentioned that Mazrim Taim is not Demandred. There seems to be some confusion on whether or not you said that.

RJ: Mazrim Taim is not Demandred.

 

That's as clear as it gets. Believe what you want, but Taim is not, never has been, nor will be Demandred.

 

 

 

I believe Jordan spoke as an Aes Sedai, for Mazrim Taim is not Demandred, but Demandred is Mazrim Taim. Mazrim Taim is not somebody who actualy exists, for it is only another name that belongs to the identity of Demandred. That's how I believe anyway. For instance, Bruce Wayne (not sure of the spelling) is Batman, but Batman is not Bruce Wayne. Batman does not go on dressing as and masquerading as Bruce Wayne. Bruce Wayne does all of that as Batman. Demandred is Mazrim Taim. But Mazrim Taim is a name, not an identity. That's my belief. Therefore, Jordan's statement was true, but not the truth you thought it was.

 

 

Well that's some....interesting logic (and a bizarre usage of the word "identity"), but he's still not Taim, because he's not playing the role of Taim either:

Week 4 Question: At recent book signing following the release of Crossroads of Twilight, it was reported that you confirmed that the Forsaken Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, who was introduced to Rand at the beginning of Lord of Chaos. Have you confirmed that Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, leader of the Black Tower?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you.

 

And he's also not pretending to be anyone we've seen up to CoT (same source linked above):

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton OH - Michael Martin reporting

Q: Have we yet seen the alter-ego Demandred presents to the Third Agers on-screen?

 

RJ: NO.

 

QED.

[didymos]

Demandred says his rule is secure as he prepares for battle just as the Children of the Light, who have yet to have been openly tainted with Forsaken or Darkfriends of any real value, gather their entire force and begin marching in a specific direction and no one connects the two?

 

Uh, no, they don't connect them because the Whitecloaks got trashed by the Seanchan and chased out of Amador, thereby utterly gutting their political power. Ultimately, Eamon Valda ended up subordinating himself to the Seanchan, and then Galad killed him and took the title of Lord Captain Commander, which in turn caused a schism in the Children. How is that ruling anything, much less doing so securely?

[jdbond]

People are forgetting the simple fact that Demandred was one of the greatest Generals of light and he performed even better when he joined the shadow. Whitecloak is not an army. A small country like Muruandy simply cannot build a memorable army when army in Randland now means atleast 100s of thousands of soldiers. Demandred is main villain in this story and he could not possibly be coming to this war with 10000 soldiers.

 

Taim is not Demandred.

 

Aiel are the greatest fighting force in Randland. If anyone can match their mettle, if just by pure luck, it will be band of Red Hand.

[jdbond]

And yes, Demandred likes to stay in shadow and make his puppets do all the work. One more reason why we still don't know who he is. He is a master puppeteer.Taim simply cannot pull that of.

[Jblaylock]

Okay okay. Good points.

But Taim is at least a puppet of Demandred.

 

Has anyone ruled out the fact that Demandred's army might not be in Randland? In one of the later books, though I forget which one, Grendel displays a couple of her pets that do something with song and the One Power, who are from another land far east or west or something, and I believe were rulers of a sort over there. I forget the details and I could be butchering all of the facts there. But have they been explained yet? What if "those" people are Demandred's, and Grendel only took them for the sport factor of taking two rulers from Demandred's people, or something along those lines.

[GYLD]

The rulers she kidnapped were from Shara, and by all reports Shara is in a state of civil war, which doesn't sound much like a secure rule.

[Jblaylock]

The rulers she kidnapped were from Shara, and by all reports Shara is in a state of civil war, which doesn't sound much like a secure rule.

 

 

Ah. Thanks for the clarification. I could not remember enough about who or what they were, and thus couldn't make up my mind whether or not they were worth considering here.

[jdbond]

We can only hope. Demandred surely is wild card in this story. He is manipulating everything right or left. I doubt he collected Borderlanders for his "army". It serves no purpose since these people are in open and sitting in Far Madding when war will happen in Borderlands. And I doubt they can sneak back and attack the rear and Seanchan probably will pounce on them before anything. Only true purpose I see is that he was able to completely weaken the Borderlands for invasion. I am pretty sure he advised Semi to go to Seanchan and Messana to WT. And yes, he might be pulling Taim's string. Grandel (Sammael?) believed he was in south but there's nothing there.

[didymos]

OK, wild guess time, because I can't think of anything better: what if Demandred's rule isn't over humans and his forces aren't human either. What if he's in charge of the Trolloc hordes and whatnot, and hasn't even bothered with getting much political power in Randland proper. Instead, he just occasionally goes and meddles with stuff to increase chaos and improve his own position, then goes back to building the Shadowspawn armies. The only reason the idea appeals to me is because I just plain can't come up with any nation we know of and say "Yep, that meets the criteria for Demandred's territory." I mean, it seems like it ought to be dead obvious where the dude is by now, but all the candidates kinda suck for a variety of reasons.

[Jblaylock]

Has anybody ruled out the possibility that Demandred might be Logaine? Logaine is powerful. Min also saw a crown or something (sorry I'm bad with recalling details) over his head, which has yet to be fullfiled to - at least - my satisfaction. He has tried subtly to turn Rand against Taim, through warnings and suspicions, but that all might have just been strategy to force more Asha'man to take clear sides, and probably side with Taim, who has spent more time with them. If he was outright and obvious about it, he would fail. If he's Demandred, then Taim would secretly be working for him, so it would make sense to subtly prod Rand to do something that would make the Asha'man side with Taim, and thus work for Logaine/Demandred.

 

 

Plus, when he was taken initialy to Caemlyn to be gentled, he looked up directly at Rand and laughed. He later said it was because he could sense his power. But what if it was really because he knew how close he was to a weak and unlearned Dragon Reborn, but could do nothing about it.