New Idea for the BUT...

[Impressive Bosom]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately and I've come to a conclusion, but its a conclusion based on a memory of something I can't seem to find reference to, so I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction or set me straight.

 

(Also, forgive me if this exposition is not quite as detailed or well organized as our friend Luckers tends to offer - I'm at work with people constantly looking over my shoulder)

 

Now we know that the Portal Stones allow access between worlds. What I seem to remember is someone saying or referencing the fact that the DO holds sway in some of these worlds, or possibly all of them other than Randland. Either case, if true, would serve the point. If the DO holds sway in other worlds then that's everything. EVERYTHING.

 

That explains why the Shadow has access to more Trollocs than the Blight could support by entire orders of magnitude (as Brandon has alluded to)

 

That explains why the Trollocs can seemingly appear anywhere in Randland in huge numbers despite the Ogier working to close the Ways.

 

The 'thing' that exists in the Blight that no one knows about could well be a Portal Stone, as alluded to by RJ.

 

It brings home the point that, no matter how heroic, crafty or brilliant the Light's generals are, this war is ultimately impossible for them to win through force of arms - necessitating the existence of the Dragon.

 

There's more to it than that, but I'd like to hear some thoughts from others or possibly be corrected before I blather on like an idiot and have to get the entire thread deleted by the mods out of shame.

[Elend]

Isn't the BUT supposed to be after the discussion on the Mirror Worlds though?

[Impressive Bosom]

Isn't the BUT supposed to be after the discussion on the Mirror Worlds though?

After our first encounter with them yes, but I thought the conversation about which the Shadow hold sway in came later... I wish I could find a reference to it.

[Elend]

Isn't the BUT supposed to be after the discussion on the Mirror Worlds though?

After our first encounter with them yes, but I thought the conversation about which the Shadow hold sway in came later... I wish I could find a reference to it.

 

IIRC the conversation is in The Great Hunt, or the closest that came to a conversation on it, with Verin. They basically weren't mentioned after Rand used them in The Shadow Rising. I could be mistaken, though.

[Sharaman]

Don't think this is the BUT because portal stones only appear in Book II and Book IV and never after that. However it's an interesting theory. Worlds where the GLoD's minions have won are used as trolloc hostels and portal stones are used to transport them. Cool. Incidentally that means huge, huge channeling resources required with massive circles - Rand could barely move a few hundred Aiel and we're dealing with magnitudes larger numbers.

[NetSlider]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately and I've come to a conclusion, but its a conclusion based on a memory of something I can't seem to find reference to, so I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction or set me straight.

 

(Also, forgive me if this exposition is not quite as detailed or well organized as our friend Luckers tends to offer - I'm at work with people constantly looking over my shoulder)

 

Now we know that the Portal Stones allow access between worlds. What I seem to remember is someone saying or referencing the fact that the DO holds sway in some of these worlds, or possibly all of them other than Randland. Either case, if true, would serve the point. If the DO holds sway in other worlds then that's everything. EVERYTHING.

 

That explains why the Shadow has access to more Trollocs than the Blight could support by entire orders of magnitude (as Brandon has alluded to)

 

That explains why the Trollocs can seemingly appear anywhere in Randland in huge numbers despite the Ogier working to close the Ways.

 

The 'thing' that exists in the Blight that no one knows about could well be a Portal Stone, as alluded to by RJ.

 

It brings home the point that, no matter how heroic, crafty or brilliant the Light's generals are, this war is ultimately impossible for them to win through force of arms - necessitating the existence of the Dragon.

 

There's more to it than that, but I'd like to hear some thoughts from others or possibly be corrected before I blather on like an idiot and have to get the entire thread deleted by the mods out of shame.

 

One big question than - does that mean there are infinite amount of DOs and Creators? (or at least DOs?). And does that mean there are infinite amount of patterns and wheels? Kind of a very long stretch IMO. I can see how DO's minions might have access to these worlds through portal stone, but to imply that DO won in any of these world...These worlds are very complex and contradictory to what we know about the wheel of time universe (maybe that's why they were not mentioned after tSR). Just think of this - the implications to even think of these worlds in any way other than reflection of the real world is immanence. The only way to look at them is as "possible worlds" (kind of like quantum theory in a very primitive sense) but not having any attributes of actually existing at any given time. Infinite amount of worlds simply puts everything we know on its head - and i mean EVERYTHING (that is if we actually believe DO and Creator do exist or did exist at any given time). This whole subject leads to philosophy and theology where logic will simply ruin everything.

[Elend]

^

 

There is one Dark One and one Creator (according to Verin). If the Dark One wins in one, he wins in all. If he loses in one, he loses in all. There are two ways (that I know of) to interpret this. The first is a paradox. The second is a play on words with the truth hidden in plain sight, where Rand's world is a "keystone" world of sorts and its outcome determines the outcome in all other worlds.

[Corlock]

I think Verin said, if the Dark One is freed in one world, he is freed in all worlds. So, that there are worlds in which he's won, he just hasn't gotten free of his prison.

[NetSlider]

I think Verin said, if the Dark One is freed in one world, he is freed in all worlds. So, that there are worlds in which he's won, he just hasn't gotten free of his prison.

 

Wait, he won and yet in prison? how does that work? if he win the wheel and patter is gone (including the world) unless Moridin is very wrong (which i grant is possible).

[NetSlider]

^

 

There is one Dark One and one Creator (according to Verin). If the Dark One wins in one, he wins in all. If he loses in one, he loses in all. There are two ways (that I know of) to interpret this. The first is a paradox. The second is a play on words with the truth hidden in plain sight, where Rand's world is a "keystone" world of sorts and its outcome determines the outcome in all other worlds.

 

I agree it makes more sense but i have to say i'm very skeptical what AS say is true and what actually is. I think those worlds are not real, but instead possibilities (like visions Rand and others had when going after Fain when they used the stones). The fact that you might physically travel through a possible world though presents new issues. Primarily, what does constitute a real world from the "possible world"? This is not a simple question to answer (I'm not even sure we can answer that question definitively).

[Elend]

^

 

Like I said in my post about that one, its entirely possible everyone is just misinterpreting Verin's words. For all we know that one world is a specific world. The mirror worlds are mirror worlds after all, implying a reflection of a real world.

[Corlock]

He won in that he took over the world in those other worlds, but he was unable to break free of his prison. I think Verin's full quote is something along the lines of "If he is freed in one world, he is freed in all worlds. If he remains imprisoned in one world, he remains imprisoned in all worlds." That is why the seal on the Bore in the true Randland is so important, it keeps him imprisioned, not just in this world, but in all worlds of if.

[NetSlider]

^

 

Like I said in my post about that one, its entirely possible everyone is just misinterpreting Verin's words. For all we know that one world is a specific world. The mirror worlds are mirror worlds after all, implying a reflection of a real world.

 

to be honest i kind of have a problem with mirror world expression. what is a mirror world? is it a reflection of a "real" world? is the "real" world is Rand's world?

[Elend]

^

 

Like I said in my post about that one, its entirely possible everyone is just misinterpreting Verin's words. For all we know that one world is a specific world. The mirror worlds are mirror worlds after all, implying a reflection of a real world.

 

to be honest i kind of have a problem with mirror world expression. what is a mirror world? is it a reflection of a "real" world? is the "real" world is Rand's world?

 

That's how I personally view it, TBH. There is a reason we see Rand's story. I think that all the other worlds are simply reflections of Rand's and the Dark One can only free himself in Rand's.

[NetSlider]

He won in that he took over the world in those other worlds, but he was unable to break free of his prison. I think Verin's full quote is something along the lines of "If he is freed in one world, he is freed in all worlds. If he remains imprisoned in one world, he remains imprisoned in all worlds." That is why the seal on the Bore in the true Randland is so important, it keeps him imprisioned, not just in this world, but in all worlds of if.

I really dont see how that's possible. If he took over the world using proxies that means there are forsaken and such in that world. wouldn't they wanna free him per his orders? and if they took over the world in DO's name wouldn't they break the seals b/c he would simply replace them with someone who would free him? and if he can't find anyone who would free him than we really didn't win, now, did he?

[martianblues]

not necessarily. I'm thinking of the world Rand went to in TGH, in which the trollocs had won the trolloc wars, no people left, no forsaken freed yet either, just shadowspawn. no one to break the seals.

 

I've considered this question about the Portal Stones too. It's not the Stone(s) in the blight themselves which would be the BUT, rather the fact that huge numbers of trollocs have been moved around somehow. I think most of us assumed it was thru the ways, but that may be problematic considering the numbers involved. and it's in book 4 when this first happens, trollocs appearing out of nowhere in the Waste, and we know there is a least one Stone close to where they appeared. and those other worlds do seem like a good place to keep getting more trollocs on demand, but then you are left with the question of who is channeling to operate the Stones.

I have thought that just the movement of so many trollocs might possibly be the BUT. Seems to fit the criteria. Could be something besides the Stones. I know it has been stated that shadowspawn can't pass thru a gateway, a OP gateway, but is the same necessarily true for a TP gateway like Ishy/Moridin uses?

[NetSlider]

^

 

Like I said in my post about that one, its entirely possible everyone is just misinterpreting Verin's words. For all we know that one world is a specific world. The mirror worlds are mirror worlds after all, implying a reflection of a real world.

 

to be honest i kind of have a problem with mirror world expression. what is a mirror world? is it a reflection of a "real" world? is the "real" world is Rand's world?

 

That's how I personally view it, TBH. There is a reason we see Rand's story. I think that all the other worlds are simply reflections of Rand's and the Dark One can only free himself in Rand's.

Me too. I kind of lean towards the idea that mirror worlds is nothing more but a different way of say "possible worlds". But there is one "true" world and one "true" dimension, if you will. now, the question of TAR is begging to be mentioned but at this point we simply don't know what the hell TAR is. It is a reflection of the world, but not as "possible world," instead it truly is a very close reflection of the "real" world. TAR i think is the beast of its own.

 

 

 

[NetSlider]

I've considered this question about the Portal Stones too. It's not the Stone(s) in the blight themselves which would be the BUT, rather the fact that huge numbers of trollocs have been moved around somehow. I think most of us assumed it was thru the ways, but that may be problematic considering the numbers involved. and it's in book 4 when this first happens, trollocs appearing out of nowhere in the Waste, and we know there is a least one Stone close to where they appeared. and those other worlds do seem like a good place to keep getting more trollocs on demand, but then you are left with the question of who is channeling to operate the Stones.

I have thought that just the movement of so many trollocs might possibly be the BUT. Seems to fit the criteria. Could be something besides the Stones. I know it has been stated that shadowspawn can't pass thru a gateway, a OP gateway, but is the same necessarily true for a TP gateway like Ishy/Moridin uses?

 

actually it's int he book one we find about trollocs in the waste (the die aiel telling tinker about the Eye).

[martianblues]

actually it's int he book one we find about trollocs in the waste (the die aiel telling tinker about the Eye).

 

yeah that's true... i don't remember the circumstances of that story well. wasn't that close to the waste? and not thousands of trollocs appearing by surprise far into the waste like in TSR.

[NetSlider]

actually it's int he book one we find about trollocs in the waste (the die aiel telling tinker about the Eye).

 

yeah that's true... i don't remember the circumstances of that story well. wasn't that close to the waste? and not thousands of trollocs appearing by surprise far into the waste like in TSR.

 

i dont have a book at hand but i'm sure it was inside the waste. but something occurred to me - you are right about the whole waste appearance. how did trollocs attack Rand in the waste? Is there a steading there (and thus the ways)? Just what the hell is going on out there?! MADNESS, CHAOS!!!!...oh, that's right...let the lord of chaos rule?...

[mossman87]

^

 

Like I said in my post about that one, its entirely possible everyone is just misinterpreting Verin's words. For all we know that one world is a specific world. The mirror worlds are mirror worlds after all, implying a reflection of a real world.

 

to be honest i kind of have a problem with mirror world expression. what is a mirror world? is it a reflection of a "real" world? is the "real" world is Rand's world?

 

The Portal Stones send you to the Mirror Worlds of Randland (All possibilities that could happen). Now Parallel Worlds, like Finnland and wherever the Ogier are from, are persistent worlds with different physics, and they probably have their own Mirror Worlds. Yes this probably means there's multiple Patterns. We'll never know for sure though, except maybe in the encyclopedia being made.

 

If you're interested in the topic at all, read this post: http://www.theorylan...read.php?t=2714 it's too large to paste here but here's some.

 

 

Matt: Is the True Power used by any other creatures or beings within parallel or perpendicular worlds or other dimensions?

 

Brandon: Ok, see answering that actually gets us a 'begging the question' because . . . let’s step back: the question that people should be asking is does the Dark One exist in all of these parallels . . .

 

Matt: Okay, so yeah this is the question I’ll ask, you make a good point. Are there worlds and dimensions that exist outside of the Pattern?

 

Brandon: Ok, see that’s the question you should be asking. I mean, you should be asking it, but it doesn’t mean I’m going to answer it. [laughter] But that’s at the core of the question. I’m going to discuss it without giving you the answer. I like to do this because I think it frames the question without giving you too much information that I have that I don’t think is appropriate to share right now. Extrapolations of this question get us to: is there one Dragon for all different Parallels or are they all different Dragons? Traveling through the Portal Stone seems to indicate that there are many different lives Rand could have led. The same thing happens with several of the ter’angreal that people go through. The question then is, are those all separate universes? Do we have a multiverse sort of concept? Or are they possibilities? And do these worlds all exist, or could exist...what is the difference? In some of those Rand failed. So, is Rand the Dragon in all of them, or is Rand not the Dragon in some of them? What happens in the ones where Rand failed? Are they real worlds? Are those different worlds where there is a different Dark One who then takes over and destroys that world? Or maybe not, maybe he makes it as he wishes. Or are those just possibilities, reflections of this world that don’t really exist except when we touch them? Those are all very good questions. Robert Jordan said thatTel'aran'rhiod is a reflection of all different worlds, which implies other worlds continue to exist. The World of the 'Finns is something different…

 

Matt: He called it a parallel world.

 

Brandon: Yes, the parallel world, that one and also the one Rand and Lanfear visited are persistent regardless of someone from this world visiting.

 

Maria clarifies:

 

[Maria: I had to look it up to make sure that I had which one was which correct. The ‘finn worlds are parallel worlds, the Ogier world is a parallel world. The place that Lanfear, Rand, Loial and Hurin went to was a Mirror World, as were all of the ones in the Portal Stone incident.]

 

(Brandon cont.) Yet, many of those seem almost shadowy and reflections of the real world, some of them seem as real—just strange when visiting them. What happens in these different worlds? That sort of thing, those were never questions that Robert Jordan answered . . .

 

Matt: The answers exist?

 

Brandon: The answers exist, but are there many parallel Patterns or is there one Pattern?

 

Matt: Yeah, that’s . . . are there many Wheels or just one Wheel?

 

Brandon: That’s not a question, I’m afraid, that I can answer because I don’t think it’s within the scope of the books, and I don’t think that the characters . . . that there are people that could know. You will find Browns arguing all of these different things among themselves, and it’s not my place to step in and end the discussion.

 

 

To add to the topic, I think it's certainly possible they're using the Mirror Worlds for trollocs, we know that Lanfear can use Portal Stones from TGH, and they're scattered all over, it'd make sense.

[martianblues]

actually it's int he book one we find about trollocs in the waste (the die aiel telling tinker about the Eye).

 

yeah that's true... i don't remember the circumstances of that story well. wasn't that close to the wasteblight? and not thousands of trollocs appearing by surprise far into the waste like in TSR.

 

i dont have a book at hand but i'm sure it was inside the waste. but something occurred to me - you are right about the whole waste appearance. how did trollocs attack Rand in the waste? Is there a steading there (and thus the ways)? Just what the hell is going on out there?! MADNESS, CHAOS!!!!...oh, that's right...let the lord of chaos rule?...

 

edit: i meant wasn't that close to the blight? yes in the waste, but up by the blight border, don't remember tho.

[Impressive Bosom]

I think - and I could be wrong in this - that Rand's world is the 'true' world in the sense that it's the world where the Bore was drilled, so its the world where the Bore was sealed and therefor its the world where the DO is trying to break free. From our world his touch can and has spilled into some or all of the other mirror worlds, twisting them in whatever ways might be appropriate for those worlds. In this vein I'm interpretting the concept that 'if he wins in one world he wins in all worlds' as 'if he wins in this world he will win in all the others'.

 

May well not be the BUT, as shown by the timing of various revelations, but I'm feeling pretty good about my prediction that Trollocs and other Shadowspawn will be brought into Randland via Portal Stones and account for the overwhelming force they are able to bring to bear. That it's a Portal Stone in the Blight that no one knows about conflicts with my stronger belief that its actually a city no one knows about in the Blight is fine, since that part doesn't have to be true for the theory to bear out.

[martianblues]

I think - and I could be wrong in this - that Rand's world is the 'true' world in the sense that it's the world where the Bore was drilled, so its the world where the Bore was sealed and therefor its the world where the DO is trying to break free. From our world his touch can and has spilled into some or all of the other mirror worlds, twisting them in whatever ways might be appropriate for those worlds. In this vein I'm interpretting the concept that 'if he wins in one world he wins in all worlds' as 'if he wins in this world he will win in all the others'.

 

May well not be the BUT, as shown by the timing of various revelations, but I'm feeling pretty good about my prediction that Trollocs and other Shadowspawn will be brought into Randland via Portal Stones and account for the overwhelming force they are able to bring to bear. That it's a Portal Stone in the Blight that no one knows about conflicts with my stronger belief that its actually a city no one knows about in the Blight is fine, since that part doesn't have to be true for the theory to bear out.

 

I pretty much agree with all that. BTW i just wanted to say, "Impressive Bosom", that screen name makes me chuckle.

[dovien]

"Neither do I, Rand. Most of it sounded like this. 'If a

woman go left, or right, does Time's flow divide? Does the Wheel then weave two Patterns? A thousand, for

each of her turnings? As many as the stars? Is one real, the others merely shadows and reflections?' You see, it

was not very clear. Mainly questions, most of which seemed to contradict each other. And there just wasn't

much of it."

"She is a fascinating woman, isn't she? Some of the Elders don't know as much as she does about

history-especially the Age of Legends-and about-oh, yes. She says you were right about the Ways, Rand. The

Aes Sedai, some of them, studied worlds like this, and that study was the basis of how they grew the Ways. She

says there are worlds where it is time rather than distance that changes. Spend a day in one of those, and you

might come back to find a year has passed in the real world, or twenty. Or it could be the other way round.

Those worlds - this one, all the others - are reflections of the real world, she says. This one seems pale to us

because it is a weak reflection, a world that had little chance of ever being. Others are almost as likely as ours.

Those are as solid as our world, and have people. The same people, she says, Rand. Imagine it! You could go to

one of them and meet yourself. The Pattern has infinite variation, she says, and every variation that can be, will

be."

 

"Yes. Exactly. Those worlds truly are mirrors in a way, especially the

ones where there are no people. Some of them reflect only great events in the true world, but some have a

shadow of that reflection even before the event occurs. The passage of the Horn of Valere would certainly be a

great event. Reflections of what will be are fainter than reflections of what is or what was, just as Hurin says the

trail he followed was faint."

 

"I know this much about them. Each stands for a world, the study of which

led eventually to the making of the Ways. These are not all of the worlds studied, but the only ones for which I

know the symbols. This is where gambling comes in. I don't know what any of these worlds is like. It is

believed there are worlds where a year is only a day here, and others where a day is a year here. There are

supposed to be worlds where the very air would kill us at a breath, and worlds that barely have enough reality to

hold together. I would not speculate on what might happen if we found ourselves in one of those. You must

choose. As my father would have said, it's time to roll the dice."