The Three Egwene Ruled Out

[Lisa Campbell]

@Sharaman

 

Verin didn't tell Egwene that she had met Mesaana in the Tower. Early on it was Lanfear in (or making visits to) the Tower. Remember that she and Ishamael were the first FS to escape from the DO's prison. I think Mesaana came a bit later but I could be wrong. Can you remind me if and where it says in tDR that Mesaana is in the tower back then? I re-read the whole series every time theres a new book but I don't make notes of that stuff - yet.

[Tom Sawyer]

It looks like a big thing about Egwene's plot in the next book is going to be finding out who it is that Mesaana's hiding as. I think that it can be deduced from that that she's hiding as a single person and Egwene's going to be following clues to who she is. It doesn't seem to me that this is going to be a major plot of the book, so I don't know if we need to worry about it being overly complex like she's hiding as a number of different people and she's actually someone specific and we can take Graendal's hint that she's an Aes Sedai seriously and we don't need to consider the maids or anything.

 

She's been there at least since Suian's deposing and probably a bit longer, since Verin was able to meet with her a couple of times before she left for the Two Rivers. I think it's fairly obvious that she beat the Oath Rod because Chosen don't consider themselves DFs, so she wasn't lying when she said that. Egwene's probably got people watching the Oath Rod right now since she knows how important it is to ferret out any BAs who wander back to the Tower, so I wouldn't be surprised if an early scene in the book is the people looking after it turning up dead so that Mesaana can take the Oaths off of herself.

 

Personally, I think she's Danelle, since that's someone who's been in the story since Suian's deposing and it would be a bit too random to have it be Jill Sedai who doesn't show up until she's exposed as Mesaana and a bit too obvious to have it be one of the three suspects that Egwene starts with.

[Sharaman]

@Sharaman

 

Verin didn't tell Egwene that she had met Mesaana in the Tower. Early on it was Lanfear in (or making visits to) the Tower. Remember that she and Ishamael were the first FS to escape from the DO's prison. I think Mesaana came a bit later but I could be wrong. Can you remind me if and where it says in tDR that Mesaana is in the tower back then? I re-read the whole series every time theres a new book but I don't make notes of that stuff - yet.

 

TGS Chapter 39. (A Visit From Verin Sedai) "One of the Chosen is in the Tower, child. It's Mesaana, I'm certain of it. I'd hoped to give you the name she was hiding under but the two times I met with her, she was shrouded to the point I couldn't tell."

 

Clear enough unless you assume she's lying to Egwene.

Verin hasn't been in the Tower since TDR. She left for the Two Rivers months before Elaida carried out her coup and she only returned that night when she met Egwene. We have a clear record of her wanderings from the Two Rivers to Caemlyn, Carhein, the Aiel camp, Far Madding, Cleansing at Shadar Logoth, Algiarin's Manor, etc. She only learnt Travel in Winter's Heart post Far Madding and again, we have a clear day-day record from there till Hinderstap. There is no way Verin could have met Mesaana twice unless she met her before she went to the Two Rivers - hence Mesaana has been there since TDR.

[Fury000]

I think its one of the three Aes Sedai is Mesaana. The problem is to know which one it is as Egghead cant just put them to question in case she fail to get the right one. Then her talk about united Tower would get a bit thorned and she would be back at square one.

 

As for the how she avoided the binder its still a mystery but she probly used a word like Black Ajah instead of Darkfriend. She could easy say she is not Black Ajah becuase she isnt in true. She believe herself to be something more. I find it hard to believe should could have used Darkfriend as that is something she is true. And as I know Egghead and other Aes Sedai they would have been happy with people saying that they are not Black Ajah instead to force them to say Darkfriend.

 

As for how long she has been in the Tower shouldnt suprise me if it was from the day she got free from the Bore. We has seen how easy it is to capture an Aes Sedai and extract information from her. Like Semirhage did the Cabrina. Ehh whats friends for...Mesaana probly asked a favor from her or Semirhage was orded to do it.

 

And we also know both from Jordan himself that u can hide your strenght in the One Power plus that Illusions are easier to make and more realistic if they are small. So i guess that the AS they captured hade some likness to real Mesaana. As for voicechange shouldnt even be a problem. We have seen such voicechanges a couple of times in the books.

[Lisa Campbell]

Which book was it where there was a meeting of FS and it was revealed that Mesaana was in the tower (I think a Graendal POV)? And it is reasonable to think she would change identities because someone (I always presumed Lanfear) used Else's identity in the Tower when she was supposed to have been sent away or on penance at a farm or something. Maybe it wasn't Lanfear but Mesaana finding her way into the tower. Verin was there then but the supergirls asked Siuan why she would use Else for a messenger and so that identity became suspect and a risk. And was sent away. I think that she was a real novice and was killed on the farm and that her identity was used afterwards by Mesaana who had to discard it. Just because she could have met with BAS in the tower back then doesn't mean she was ensconced. I think she was manipulating a way in and looking for an opportunity.

[Gor]

Verin doesn't have to have the ability to Travel if Mesaana already does. Mesaana could have summoned Verin to see her in the Tower, and provided the means to get their via a gateway.

[Lisa Campbell]

Dammit! have to write this all again cause I timed out when I got the washing out of the machine...went kinda like this:

 

Verin didn't say she met with Mesaana in the Tower only that she had met her twice. FS meet with their servants on their own terms. Consider that Alviarin has been given a TA to contact Mesaana in an emergency as a privilege but that it is Mesaana who comes to her.

 

Other ways that the FS meet is in someone's dreams (or pulling them into one) or the way that Semirhage did with Suroth. I know that not all the FS are skilled in T'A'R but the WO don't say that it is hard to do, just evil and the way of the Shadow.

 

Even if Verin couldn't travel early on, that doesn't mean that Mesaana didn't travel to her. And Verin said she suspected that Mesaana was posing as an AS. That is natural for her to assume given the arrogant streak of just about every character especially the ones who can channel. Egwene pounced on this suspicion and accepted it without question and has not considered those in the Tower who are not channelers at all. I think this was the proverbial red herring and is what made me start thinking about it after my last re-read of tGS.

[unlabled]

I thought it was widely believed that Mesaana was Danelle? She still sounds like the most plausible person to me, since she helped soldiers infiltrate the White Tower for Siuan's overthrow and has not been identified as BA.

[Lisa Campbell]

I have to correct myself after going back to Sentinel's post. Verin didn't even say that she was posing as an AS. Just that she was certain Mesaana was and that she didn't find the name she was hiding under. It was Egwene and Co. assuming that it would be as an AS.

 

Is there some reference in Graendal's POV in the Prologue to Mesaana being fake AS? From what I can glean from reviews and comments without reading the whole thing (Thirteenth Depository's review was informative) the POV is about how she underestimated Rand and Nynaeve and how she got away. Didn't earlier Graendal POV at FS meeting say that Mesaana was in the Tower and she was being watched by Graendal's eyes and ears? I just can't remember when Graendal said Mesaana was posing as AS.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I have to correct myself after going back to Sentinel's post. Verin didn't even say that she was posing as an AS. Just that she was certain Mesaana was and that she didn't find the name she was hiding under. It was Egwene and Co. assuming that it would be as an AS.

 

Is there some reference in Graendal's POV in the Prologue to Mesaana being fake AS? From what I can glean from reviews and comments without reading the whole thing (Thirteenth Depository's review was informative) the POV is about how she underestimated Rand and Nynaeve and how she got away. Didn't earlier Graendal POV at FS meeting say that Mesaana was in the Tower and she was being watched by Graendal's eyes and ears? I just can't remember when Graendal said Mesaana was posing as AS.

In the tGS Prologue

Prologue: What the Storm Means

Mesaana was in the White Tower, pretending to be one of what passed for an Aes Sedai in this Age. She was obvious and easy to read; Graendal's agents in the White Tower kept her well apprised of Mesaana's activities.

[mossman87]

Wow all these posts and only two mentioned Danelle.

[Grig]

As for the how she avoided the binder its still a mystery but she probly used a word like Black Ajah instead of Darkfriend.

 

It wouldn't matter. The Forsaken do not consider themselves Darkfriends (or Friends of the Dark) and are indeed contemptuous of them (see: Lanfear in tGH). She would not think she was lying, and thus would be able to say "I am not a Darkfriend" -- much like Rand wouldn't have been lying if he said he wasn't Aiel in tEotW.

 

It's obvious why Egwene doesn't realize this, but it puzzles me that it's not horribly obvious to fans (let alone ones dedicated enough to post on WoT forums).

[Lynander]

In Chapter 25 of TPoD, Alvarian notices Mesaana wearing a dress of bronze silk with black scrollwork.

 

When she grabs Mesaana in chapter 21 of CoT, she notices that Messaana has blue eyes and "garbed in bronze-embroidered green." "tantalizing familiar" - "She had known Mesaana walked the Tower disguised as one of the sisters"

 

This hints a lot of someone in the Brown Ajah. She is also mentioned as a scholar, (by SH I think) which works for her as be Brown Ajah as well. I've always thought "bronze-embroidered green" might have been a hint of someone in the Brown with a Warder. One notable suspect is Danelle (repeating what other people have said in other threads), who has big blue eyes, she gave that smirk when Siuan is dispatched as Amyrlin Seat, Alvarin runs into her right after a meeting with Elaida (forgot when), she has no friends, she brings in the soldiers who look like masons.

 

As far as the three AS - Merhan, Teramina and Jamilila - it's possible that A. Bloodknives B. Maybe they are part of Graenal's eyes and ears.

 

As far as Evaneillin, I don't remember much about her. After looking at wotencyclopaedia, since she was there to dispatch Siuan, it's possible she is Mesaana, but unlikely in my opinion. I think Mesaana killing her first hand is more likely.

 

One thing that bothers me, though, is how do we know that they actually left the Tower, Mesaana included. There is lots of evidence that suggests MANY rooms have not been entered in a very long time throughout the series. Which means LOTS of hiding spots and searching the tower will be a big task.

[Sharaman]

Dammit! have to write this all again cause I timed out when I got the washing out of the machine...went kinda like this:

 

Verin didn't say she met with Mesaana in the Tower only that she had met her twice. FS meet with their servants on their own terms. Consider that Alviarin has been given a TA to contact Mesaana in an emergency as a privilege but that it is Mesaana who comes to her.

 

Other ways that the FS meet is in someone's dreams (or pulling them into one) or the way that Semirhage did with Suroth. I know that not all the FS are skilled in T'A'R but the WO don't say that it is hard to do, just evil and the way of the Shadow.

 

Even if Verin couldn't travel early on, that doesn't mean that Mesaana didn't travel to her. And Verin said she suspected that Mesaana was posing as an AS. That is natural for her to assume given the arrogant streak of just about every character especially the ones who can channel. Egwene pounced on this suspicion and accepted it without question and has not considered those in the Tower who are not channelers at all. I think this was the proverbial red herring and is what made me start thinking about it after my last re-read of tGS.

 

We know that pretty much all the (non-transmigated) FS were in place by TDR - Be'lal, Rahvin, Sammael, Semirhage, Graendal, were all in situ in their chosen spheres of influence. Chances are very strong that Mesaana was also in place by TDR.

Verin says " There is a Chosen in the Tower. It's Mesaana, I am certain of it (M's id)". Not suspicion but certainty.

Verin, who has been out of touch with the Tower, deduces that M is in the Tower. How does she do this if she just meets a random Chosen somewhere?

To circumvent Mesaana being in the Tower prior to TSR, according to your theory, she gets in touch with Verin, (whom she had never met while Verin was actually in the Tower). How did she do that, or even know who Verin was, if they had never met? Did she handout random call boxes to Alviarin and tell her, "get these to every BA who is wandering around?"

Then, according to your theory, M Travelled to Verin or got Verin to Travel to her/ came to her in TAR, and said "Hi, I'm sitting in the Tower and these are your instructions." Or else, how does Verin know M is in the Tower?

Doesn't that sound a little unlikely?

Isn't it more likely that V's certainty of deduction is because she met M in the Tower - twice?

[Luckers]

I'm sorry, does anyone have anything specifically spoiler based to discuss on this issue? Discussion on who Mesaana is belongs on the General Wheel Board, or at best the ToM Spec board.

 

If anyone has any specific points to make in relation to spoilers, make them now. Otherwise take this conversation to the General board.

[Lisa Campbell]

Yeah Ok I get your points guys and I had overlooked Danelle. Thanks to Sharaman for providing the ref's.

 

And sorry too Luckers, maybe you should have let yonyio screen it first.

[Charlz Guybon]

Arkhams Razor states that entities should not be multiplied needlessly;

Hilarious. It's Occam's razor. Arkham is the assylum in Gotham that supervillians like the Joker get sent to and then escape from.

 

Yeah, Luckers you should probably move this. I don't see what could possibly be added to the subject from the prologue and chapter 1. The only reason not to is that Chapter 2 might add more info though if Rand and Egwene talk about Messana.