Meidani as black ajah?

[bushleague16]

I was just rereading TGS and something bothered me about the fact that the majority of the black ajah in the tower escaped, especially the most important ones (Alviarin and Katerine in particular). There's always the answer that those who escaped death in the rebel camped warned those in the tower, but I feel that would have been difficult to accomplish with the way the black ajah works. The hearts prevent the ajah from knowing more than 2 others in the black and the way these women work, they'd be far more concerned with saving their own skin than warning their fellow darkfriends (especially after Verin's little speech on selfishness). Now we know that Meidani was only told about Alviarin and none of the others, yet oddly we don't see any sign of her during the Seanchan attack on the WT. That's not to say she could have been escaping on her own, but it seems kind of strange. Katerine we do see during the attack, yet with the timeframe, Meidani may have only been able to warn Alviarin and then the battle began. Alviarin could have then warned the others, or been caught leaving by Mesanna, who forced it out of her and then warned the others herself after the battle, but before Egwene had a chance to take out the tower BA.

 

Now I know that Meidani wasn't on Verin's list, but she fits the profile for someone the BA would make into a recruit. Her dinner's with Elaida provide a way for the BA to keep an eye on the Elaida since Alviarin's fall from grace and with the absence of Galina and Duhara. We know that the BA recruits the ambitious and greedy, but also those who are too weak to say no (Sheriam comes to mind). Meidani at the time was completely rattled by the fact that she was being controlled by both Elaida and the BA hunters, and if someone came to her and offered her a way out via the Dark one, it would make sense to me that she might take it. So what I'm saying is, she may have been a new recruit and not on Verin's list because of it.

 

I realize though that this theory presents a few problems. One is that she would have had to join up AFTER being interrogated by the BA hunters, as we know she wasn't a DF at the time, which would also excuse her from having to swear and reswear the oaths (we don't actually know who in the WT was required to swear in front of the entire hall, we only have Egwene's word that every sister had sworn again on the oath rod). The other is that she would have had to have the oath removed to obey the BA hunters by the BA (reading back I realize this might not be the case because of her restrictions on telling Egwene about the hunters) or they were using her within her limitations. The later would explain why the BA didn't kill the hunters.

 

Although these issue make this theory a bit of a stretch, I felt that the BA in the tower were far too informed of Egwene's plans even though it is possible they were forewarned by rebel BA. Egwene seems confused by it at the end of the book and to me it seems like an RJ idea of giving us very little information on the issue in order to hide the fact that there's a traitor we'd never suspect. The whole thing stinks of some kind of mole that we would dismiss because of Verin's book and whether or not it's Meidani, I believe there to be one among Egwene's trusted people. I could be WAY off base as well and I wouldn't be surprised, but I like the idea of RJ and BS toying with us by hiding something in plain sight. Let me know what you think!

[NetSlider]

what about Suian's keeper (her name for some reason escapes me right now). did verin even knew that she still lived? maybe she didn't add her b/c of that. and it would follow to have BA keeper.

[Suttree]

what about Suian's keeper (her name for some reason escapes me right now). did verin even knew that she still lived? maybe she didn't add her b/c of that. and it would follow to have BA keeper.

 

Leane!?!? First I don't see Verin leaving someone off a list because she wasn't sure if she was alive or not. Second she is in the White Tower now and would have been tested on the oath rod. This before you get into how instrumental she has been in helping Siuan and Egwene reunite the Tower.

[NetSlider]

what about Suian's keeper (her name for some reason escapes me right now). did verin even knew that she still lived? maybe she didn't add her b/c of that. and it would follow to have BA keeper.

 

Leane!?!? First I don't see Verin leaving someone off a list because she wasn't sure if she was alive or not. Second she is in the White Tower now and would have been tested on the oath rod. This before you get into how instrumental she has been in helping Siuan and Egwene reunite the Tower.

 

Ok, you got me! I was just throwing first name out there I mean if we are talking about someone close to Egwene... never mind, i was a looser moment.

[BrandonXRoss]

I don't have a copy of the book on hand to look at, but wasn't Meidani one of the 'ferrets' that the rebel Aes Sedai sent back to the WT? Wasn't she also captured by Pevarra and the others who were looking for BA and forced to swear that she wasn't BA on the oath rod?

Also, I don't think Egwene shared her BA purging plans with Meidani. I think she inadvertantly left her in the WT when she was taken back by the Rebel Aes Sedai during the Seanchan attack. I could just be getting my characters mixed up, but I'm almost certain that Meidani was attending Elidah by the command of Pavarra and the other BA hunters in the WT.

 

Personally, I think Mesaana is the most likely to have warned the other BA. Sure, she didn't really care about the BA, but she might have warned them in an attempt to get on Shadar Haran's good side. Her motive isn't very strong since the action would be only indirectly selfish, but she would have the most capability. Can't she hide her ability to channel, and disguise herself? A supplicant, or tower servant may well overhear something without being noticed.

 

It might also be possible that one of the WT BA might have been linked to another BA or a DF warder in the Rebel Camp specifically for the purpose of being an alarm system...

[bushleague16]

I don't have a copy of the book on hand to look at, but wasn't Meidani one of the 'ferrets' that the rebel Aes Sedai sent back to the WT? Wasn't she also captured by Pevarra and the others who were looking for BA and forced to swear that she wasn't BA on the oath rod?

Also, I don't think Egwene shared her BA purging plans with Meidani. I think she inadvertantly left her in the WT when she was taken back by the Rebel Aes Sedai during the Seanchan attack. I could just be getting my characters mixed up, but I'm almost certain that Meidani was attending Elidah by the command of Pavarra and the other BA hunters in the WT.

 

Personally, I think Mesaana is the most likely to have warned the other BA. Sure, she didn't really care about the BA, but she might have warned them in an attempt to get on Shadar Haran's good side. Her motive isn't very strong since the action would be only indirectly selfish, but she would have the most capability. Can't she hide her ability to channel, and disguise herself? A supplicant, or tower servant may well overhear something without being noticed.

 

It might also be possible that one of the WT BA might have been linked to another BA or a DF warder in the Rebel Camp specifically for the purpose of being an alarm system...

 

Meidani was one of the ferrets, and yes she was forced to attend Elaida because of the BA hunters. However, I'm suggesting that AFTER she was forced to reswear on the oath rod she could have been recruited by the BA. So sometime between KoD and TGS she became BA, allowing her to fly under Verin's radar and still have told the truth when she admitted she was not a DF. It's possible, I'm just wondering if it's plausable.

[Sharaman]

I don't have a copy of the book on hand to look at, but wasn't Meidani one of the 'ferrets' that the rebel Aes Sedai sent back to the WT? Wasn't she also captured by Pevarra and the others who were looking for BA and forced to swear that she wasn't BA on the oath rod?

Also, I don't think Egwene shared her BA purging plans with Meidani. I think she inadvertantly left her in the WT when she was taken back by the Rebel Aes Sedai during the Seanchan attack. I could just be getting my characters mixed up, but I'm almost certain that Meidani was attending Elidah by the command of Pavarra and the other BA hunters in the WT.

 

Personally, I think Mesaana is the most likely to have warned the other BA. Sure, she didn't really care about the BA, but she might have warned them in an attempt to get on Shadar Haran's good side. Her motive isn't very strong since the action would be only indirectly selfish, but she would have the most capability. Can't she hide her ability to channel, and disguise herself? A supplicant, or tower servant may well overhear something without being noticed.

 

It might also be possible that one of the WT BA might have been linked to another BA or a DF warder in the Rebel Camp specifically for the purpose of being an alarm system...

 

Meidani was one of the ferrets, and yes she was forced to attend Elaida because of the BA hunters. However, I'm suggesting that AFTER she was forced to reswear on the oath rod she could have been recruited by the BA. So sometime between KoD and TGS she became BA, allowing her to fly under Verin's radar and still have told the truth when she admitted she was not a DF. It's possible, I'm just wondering if it's plausable.

 

She could only have become BA with the explicit permission of the BA-hunters - she'd need their permission to forswear the 4 oaths including the oath of obedience to the hunters before she could swear the BA oaths. Assuming she's not lying to Egwene, (very dangerous since Eg could independently confirm with Seaine) she's released from the 4th oath only in the very last stages of Eg's captivity. After that, the oath rod is either with the BA hunters or Eg herself. So, it's very difficult to believe.

[Val Mickey]

Good catch, Sharaman.

[Random Man]

what about Suian's keeper (her name for some reason escapes me right now). did verin even knew that she still lived? maybe she didn't add her b/c of that. and it would follow to have BA keeper.

 

Leane!?!? First I don't see Verin leaving someone off a list because she wasn't sure if she was alive or not. Second she is in the White Tower now and would have been tested on the oath rod. This before you get into how instrumental she has been in helping Siuan and Egwene reunite the Tower.

 

Ok, you got me! I was just throwing first name out there I mean if we are talking about someone close to Egwene... never mind, i was a looser moment.

Leane actually made me wonder because she was moved out of the prison cells and placed with the already-purged rebels. Did she get overlooked during the re-swearing? I suppose the point is moot since her stilling would have removed her oaths to the DO as well.

[Grig]

She could only have become BA with the explicit permission of the BA-hunters - she'd need their permission to forswear the 4 oaths including the oath of obedience to the hunters before she could swear the BA oaths

 

Why? There's no cap on the number of oaths, and no reason to believe the oaths to the Shadow cannot be taken while under the Three (or Four) oaths. Said darkfriend would be useless as a Dreadlord, but for the purposes suggested by the OP still have some use. As for needing "permission", did the Hunters forbid her from forswearing oaths? I cannot recall offhand. But even if they did, it's easy to believe they did not order her to not swear Black oaths -- characters in WoT are great at ignoring obvious flaws.

 

This theory hinges on whether the BA hunters and their pawns were forced to forswear all oaths and re-swear the Three Oaths. The oath of obedience doesn't enter into it, as it's not relevant unless they've given conflicting orders (it's not like they need to positively give permission for everything she does, she just needs to work around their orders).

[Sharaman]

She could only have become BA with the explicit permission of the BA-hunters - she'd need their permission to forswear the 4 oaths including the oath of obedience to the hunters before she could swear the BA oaths

 

Why? There's no cap on the number of oaths, and no reason to believe the oaths to the Shadow cannot be taken while under the Three (or Four) oaths. Said darkfriend would be useless as a Dreadlord, but for the purposes suggested by the OP still have some use. As for needing "permission", did the Hunters forbid her from forswearing oaths? I cannot recall offhand. But even if they did, it's easy to believe they did not order her to not swear Black oaths -- characters in WoT are great at ignoring obvious flaws.

 

This theory hinges on whether the BA hunters and their pawns were forced to forswear all oaths and re-swear the Three Oaths. The oath of obedience doesn't enter into it, as it's not relevant unless they've given conflicting orders (it's not like they need to positively give permission for everything she does, she just needs to work around their orders).

The BA do forswear the three normal AS oaths - we know that from several references. Galina in ACoS when she's being tortured by the Shaido, Verin in TGS, Talene in WH. In Meidani's case, she would come under immediate (probably fatal) conflict if she was asked a simple question like "What did you do today?" by one of the BA Hunters.

[Grig]

 

The BA do forswear the three normal AS oaths - we know that from several references. Galina in ACoS when she's being tortured by the Shaido, Verin in TGS, Talene in WH.

 

Yes, that is the normal process. You miss my point. It's not necessary for any reason we know of, although for obvious reasons it's preferred.

 

In Meidani's case, she would come under immediate (probably fatal) conflict if she was asked a simple question like "What did you do today?" by one of the BA Hunters.

 

Why do people think so little of Aes Sedai? She could say she ate a sandwich. She could say she was surveilling Elaida. She would need to be asked very specific questions to cause "immediate (probably fatal) conflict", and those questions are unlikely to come since the BA hunters are lulled into a false sense of security by the obedience oath and assume she isn't Black because they tested her once. They make her promise not to betray them, but if someone already knows of the BA Hunters (say, Alviarin) they could put Meidani to good use while at no time attempting to get her to betray the Hunters and cause said "immediate (probably fatal) conflict".

 

I'm not saying I buy the theory (I never was too interested in AS intrigues), but it's not implausible for any of the reasons people seem to think it is.

[Sharaman]

Yukiri: "So Meidani, did you do anything that I would consider wicked today?"

Meidani: "Yes" (dies), "No" (dies). More likely "urrk" (dies).

 

We only know specifics of one of the three BA oaths - the other two unknown oaths could cause instant conflict with the normal AS oaths.

So, there may be a very specific reason why the BA oaths may not be sworn without forswearing/violating the normal AS oaths.

(Quite apart from the fourth oath of obedience.)

Also, Meidani can't tell anyone about the existence of the BA hunters, or the fourth oath.

In those circumstances, would it be normal for the BA to recruit her; not ask her to forswear the normal oaths (she can't, without permission), etc.?

[Grig]

Yukiri: "So Meidani, did you do anything that I would consider wicked today?"

Meidani: "Yes, I had seconds at supper. That's going straight to my thighs."

 

Fixed that for you. The whole crux of the theory is that BA hunters assume they have their underlings under their thumbs based on the strength of an Oath, when the whole of the series emphasizes that AS are masters at skirting around Oaths. It's not particularly strong as theories go, but it's not at all implausible based on knowledge available to the reader.

[username13]

The BA in the tower were actually warned when Egwene updated her Twitter: "Just cut off some BA heads biatches!! LOLWTFPWNT!!"

[Sharaman]

Yukiri: "So Meidani, did you do anything that I would consider wicked today?"

Meidani: "Yes, I had seconds at supper. That's going straight to my thighs."

 

Fixed that for you. The whole crux of the theory is that BA hunters assume they have their underlings under their thumbs based on the strength of an Oath, when the whole of the series emphasizes that AS are masters at skirting around Oaths. It's not particularly strong as theories go, but it's not at all implausible based on knowledge available to the reader.

 

They're all AS. Phrasing a question that can't be got around is easy enough.

Read my question again - why would Yukiri think Meidani having a second helping was wicked? Weight watching isn't an universal concept in the Tower, there's lots of plump women.

Also another version: "So, Meidani, tell me all the wicked things you did today?"

What about the other problem ? She can't tell anybody about the oaths and the BA hunters.

So when the recruiters come around and they ask her to forswear the 4 oaths and take the new ones, what does she do except babble "I cannot" and "I cannot tell you why I cannot"?