Forced Forsaken?

[Gaidzag]

I'm sorry if this has been touched upon before, but I searched the forums and couldn't find it anywhere.

 

What if some of the main Forsaken from the AoL were actually turned to the Shadow instead of volunteering. I know that for some it's already clear from their own or others' POV that they went willingly, but I wonder if maybe one or two didn't get converted the myrddraal way. Any opinions?

[Demiandre]

Semirhage hint at it. She discovered the wau of turning someone with 13 Myyrdraal, but she prefered to torture them and break them before they swore to the DO. So yes, some have been forced to the Shadow. But none of the currently living. We know their reason for joining the DO.

[BunBun]

For some reason I'm suspicious of Graendal. It seems like her personality may have reversed, which is meant to happen to people who are turned by force. Check out LOC chapter 6. Sammael talks about how she was an ascetic and dedicated to healing minds. He talks about meeting her to take her pledges to the GLoD and seeing no trace of that kind of personality. He even says that it was "... as if she had deliberately become the opposite of everything she had been before." She may have been turned by force before meeting Sammael.

 

Of course she also may just be acting out all the desires she used to repress. So I could be wrong about this.

[Demiandre]

Someone turned won't be the opposite of what he is. It just make the balance between good and evil shift toward evil. An ascetic turned will just be an evil ascetic person. I would say Mesaana has been turned. She wanted to be a teacher, couldn't, and now teach classes for the Shadow. It could be "dedication" to her passion, or a reverse in natural good/evil tendency.

 

And an ascetic who don't agree anymore with what her beliefs entail could very well change her mind and become an hedonist. The same with Mesaana, for that matter...

[BunBun]

Just to clarify, when I said that Graendal's personality had reversed, I meant that her good/evil orientation had reversed and her negative personality traits were brought out. So before she was devoted to self-denial and service, the opposite of selfishness, afterward her selfish side was brought out and she was devoted to self gratification at the expense of others. Her healing had involved getting power over people's minds to heal them, now she likes to get power over people's minds to destroy them. These things could be opposite sides of the same coin.

 

I still think my theory is kinda loopy.

[Kaznen]

No I've thought Greandal was turned for a long time, for the reasons you said.

 

RJ said that a turned AS is like the reflections of a dark mirror and they could come back to the Light, they just don't want to.

 

And Messana didn't want to be a teacher, she already was one, she wanted to be a researcher. But the people at the Hall of Servants who decides these things denied her promotion but said she could still teach. (it's in the BWB)

[Demiandre]

Oh. I thought it was the other way around. For Mesaana I mean... but then, it didn't match with a comment from Graendal I remembered "you could be a scholar" or something like that.

 

BunBun, as selfishness is a personality trait the DO favors, it seems weird to accept Graendal before she became selfish. Sammael, who claimed to know her the moqt, said that she was so to say "normal" and then became what she is...

[Gaidzag]

 

BunBun, as selfishness is a personality trait the DO favors, it seems weird to accept Graendal before she became selfish. Sammael, who claimed to know her the moqt, said that she was so to say "normal" and then became what she is...

 

See, that's the kind of thing that got me wondering about this topic in the first place.

 

I think Be'lal was turned to the dark side instead of voluntarily going because he was sick of Lews getting the credit for being a better general--Demandred was a general who also turned, but Mister Second Best had a deep seated hatred of LT already in place. Be'lal was good friends with LT. We have reports that he was envious, but I think that was how the turning manifested itself.

[Duskfire]

I dont think any of them were turned against their will because its not something that I could see the other Forsaken trusting. Back in that day craploads of other Chosen died and the thirteen we know survived because of how good they were at manipulation and politics and whatnot. If one of them had been turned, that would have been a valid excuse to plot against them, because no matter what, you could never truly trust that person (as far as Chosen can trust anyhow.) Not to mention, if they were, it seems like a detail that RJ would have put in to add more of a grey side to the characters.

[GYLD]

Being turned by the 13 trick would be all the more reason for another Forsaken to trust them. I'm a little unsure how being turned to the dark side works, but there's no reason to believe after being turned that they can then knowingly betray the Shadow, as far as I know. Compare that to the Forsaken we know who turned to the Shadow for their own selfish reasons, and who pretty much value self preservation above all else to the point where we at least know one of them will serve the Light if they think it will save their own skin. Compared to someone full on indoctrinated, well, I'd put my trust in the person who doesn't really have a choice in the matter.

[Lynchgrinch]

This is actualy a realy interesting thread...i'd never thought about this before and now that you mention it with evedence i'm kinda thinking the 13X13 might have been used on Graendal.

 

we're bound to see 13X13 at some point in the books, why not a Graendal PoV? or maby another Forsaken remembring the scene in which Graendal is turned? It's pretty good food for thought anyway

[Kaznen]

Here is his Question of the Week answer to forced turning of Forsaken:

 

 

Week 15 Question: When a channeler is forcibly turned to the Dark, is his/her former personality lost to eternity? Are they in a permanent state of mindless Compulsion? Furthermore, can a channeler forcibly turned to the Dark return to the Light unaided?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: They are not in a mindless state of Compulsion. Their former personality is twisted, the darker elements that everyone has to some degree elevated while what might be called the good elements are largely suppressed. I don't mean things like courage, which is useful even to villains, but they are unlikely to be very charitable, for example, and forget any altruistic impulses. Call it being turned into a mirror image of yourself in many ways. It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided. For one reason, by virtue of the twisting he or she had undergone, it is very unlikely that he or she would have any desire to do so.

 

here's the link:

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/03/tor-questions-of-week.html