The Future of the A'dam

[Suttree]

But if you still the suldam, I don't think she'd be able to control the damane.

 

If you stilled the Suldam, it'd just be like when SUain put the bracelet on. Nothing would happen. The Damane would be just like when the bracelet is on the peg on the wall.

 

Btw Not sure why it hasn't been brought up but a sul'dam can not be stilled unless they have "stepped over" the line and actually channeled themselves. Until they do that there is nothing to sever.

 

I still say that's incorrect giving the multiple descriptions in the book. (yes, yes I know Word of God) but if multiple channelers describe severing as the same weave as a shield, but sharper, and Avi shields Suldam, then obviously there's something to be severed. I'll never understand the logic behind that and I'm sad I'll never be able to ask a question about it

 

But characters dont describe it as the same. That is your personnel interpretation of what they are saying. IIRC there is never a link mentioned between the two weaves. Not to mention even if it was true there are a host of other reasons why it could be different given how the power comes from another source through the adam.

[Vardar]

But if you still the suldam, I don't think she'd be able to control the damane.

 

If you stilled the Suldam, it'd just be like when SUain put the bracelet on. Nothing would happen. The Damane would be just like when the bracelet is on the peg on the wall.

 

Btw Not sure why it hasn't been brought up but a sul'dam can not be stilled unless they have "stepped over" the line and actually channeled themselves. Until they do that there is nothing to sever.

 

I still say that's incorrect giving the multiple descriptions in the book. (yes, yes I know Word of God) but if multiple channelers describe severing as the same weave as a shield, but sharper, and Avi shields Suldam, then obviously there's something to be severed. I'll never understand the logic behind that and I'm sad I'll never be able to ask a question about it

 

But characters dont describe it as the same. That is your personnel interpretation of what they are saying. IIRC there is never a link mentioned between the two weaves. Not to mention even if it was true there are a host of other reasons why it could be different given how the power is use through the adam.

 

Nope, I have a quote this time sir:

 

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 55

 

She knew it was possible to cut a woman off from the True Source even if she had already embraced Saidar, but severing a weave already established had to be much harder than damming the flow before it began. She set the patterns of the weaving, readied them, making the threads of spirit much stronger, this time, thicker and heavier, a denser weave with a cutting edge like a knife.

 

Her direct comparrasion to a shield used to still. I'll look up the Ny one next if you'd like.

[Vardar]

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 54:

 

The intricate weave parted, and Moghedien missed a step. A tinge remained in Nynaeve’s mind, like a fresh memory of wanting to obey, to grovel and please, what had happened at their first meeting all over again; it heated her rage. The knife-sharp shield that Egwene had used to still Amico Nagoyin sprang into being, more weapon than shield, lashed at Moghedien-and was blocked, woven Spirit straining against woven Spirit, just short of severing Moghedien from the Source forever…

And all went into those two things; she could not spare enough to light a candle. Moghedien’s axe of Spirit waxed and waned in sharpness, but that would not matter if the woman managed to drive it home; Nynaeve could not see any real difference in outcome between being stilled by the woman and merely being shielded and at her mercy.

Twice on a page. And in this one we can see that Moggy uses the same weave to shield as to still. She modifies it on the fly, while pushing the shield on Ny. So, if you can shield, you can still. (I know, Word of God, just pointing out facts from the book).

[Suttree]

Nice one, I stand corrected on the comparison between the two.

[Vardar]

Nice one, I stand corrected on the comparison between the two.

 

Thanks, I just happened to find the quote last week in my reread, and then couldn't find the damn thread we had been debating in. I'm horrible at remembering thread names, you seem to be good at that. No idea how you do it.

[Morsker]

Btw Not sure why it hasn't been brought up but a sul'dam can not be stilled unless they have "stepped over" the line and actually channeled themselves. Until they do that there is nothing to sever.

 

See, this is one of at least three ways sul'dam can't channel and get away with it. They face the 75% risk of death if they don't learn to control it, they "sense" differently to other women who can channel, and there's a safe and effective punishment that will never harm a sul'dam "innocent" of channeling: stilling. I don't see why the Empire feels threatened by this "revelation" at all.

[Suttree]

Btw Not sure why it hasn't been brought up but a sul'dam can not be stilled unless they have "stepped over" the line and actually channeled themselves. Until they do that there is nothing to sever.

 

See, this is one of at least three ways sul'dam can't channel and get away with it. They face the 75% risk of death if they don't learn to control it, they "sense" differently to other women who can channel, and there's a safe and effective punishment that will never harm a sul'dam "innocent" of channeling: stilling. I don't see why the Empire feels threatened by this "revelation" at all.

 

I don't understand what you mean. Su'ldam are "learners" not "sparkers" and the vast majority never channel themselves even if they believe they can sense the weaves. Therefore the vast majority can not be stilled.

 

Edit: Or are you saying that is the punishment if they do decide to channel? Either way the "revelation" is huge when you consider damane are less than human. It is a gigantic cultural shift for a country in which "everyone has a place" and is expected to stay there.

[Morsker]

I don't understand what you mean. Su'ldam are "learners" not "sparkers" and the vast majority never channel themselves even if they believe they can sense the weaves. Therefore the vast majority can not be stilled.

 

Edit: Or are you saying that is the punishment if they do decide to channel? Either way the "revelation" is huge when you consider damane are less than human. It is a gigantic cultural shift for a country in which "everyone has a place" and is expected to stay there.

Yeah, I meant it's easy to punish them if they do channel, and propagandize them into not wanting to channel, so I don't see why it would change. They could even blame sul'dams' potential to channel on something marath'damane did to this continent, or create a religion where the Empress invented the a'dam and gave Commandments for its use based on omens, or give the sul'dam small amounts of forkroot so they can't channel.

 

Seanchen accept propaganda easily, and enslaving channelers is so convenient for them economically and militarily that there's plenty of bias to follow the path of least resistance and go along with the propaganda.

[avernite]

Here's the thing - if the a'dam is doomed then either the Seanchan empire is doomed or they will have to change to allow channelers to live like everybody else. It's in book 4 where it is explained that the power of the Seanchan empire rests on their ability to control channelers. Egeanin is freaked out when she realizes that the holder of the leash is a woman who can learn and that the empire can crumble from this knowledge.

 

Well..

 

Sure, the Seanchan empire in its current form is doomed if the A'dam is. But with instantaneous communications, railroads and maybe rifles an Empire can certainly be maintained, so long as the channelers still are not fully against the Empire.

[Morden]

But if you still the suldam, I don't think she'd be able to control the damane.

 

If you stilled the Suldam, it'd just be like when SUain put the bracelet on. Nothing would happen. The Damane would be just like when the bracelet is on the peg on the wall.

 

Btw Not sure why it hasn't been brought up but a sul'dam can not be stilled unless they have "stepped over" the line and actually channeled themselves. Until they do that there is nothing to sever.

 

I think you are very wrong there. The A'dam is a link forged by using Saidar. If you sever a Sul'dam the link would still work but she would not be able to control a Demane's weaves.

 

All a Sul'dam does is remote accessing of the OP. Like someone using a PC over the internet to connect to another PC and using that to do stuff.. Cut off the connection to the internet and she cannot do that any longer.

 

The key to this was Suian and Leanne with Moghedian. it showed that they were blocked from the source so could feel her but not control. almost like a firewall was between them.

[XoMeltdownoX]

But if you still the suldam, I don't think she'd be able to control the damane.

 

If you stilled the Suldam, it'd just be like when SUain put the bracelet on. Nothing would happen. The Damane would be just like when the bracelet is on the peg on the wall.

 

Btw Not sure why it hasn't been brought up but a sul'dam can not be stilled unless they have "stepped over" the line and actually channeled themselves. Until they do that there is nothing to sever.

 

I think you are very wrong there. The A'dam is a link forged by using Saidar. If you sever a Sul'dam the link would still work but she would not be able to control a Demane's weaves.

 

All a Sul'dam does is remote accessing of the OP. Like someone using a PC over the internet to connect to another PC and using that to do stuff.. Cut off the connection to the internet and she cannot do that any longer.

 

The key to this was Suian and Leanne with Moghedian. it showed that they were blocked from the source so could feel her but not control. almost like a firewall was between them.

No Sut is correct. As I post from my iPhone I can't easily give you the quotes. I am sure someone will shortly.

[Suttree]

But if you still the suldam, I don't think she'd be able to control the damane.

 

If you stilled the Suldam, it'd just be like when SUain put the bracelet on. Nothing would happen. The Damane would be just like when the bracelet is on the peg on the wall.

 

Btw Not sure why it hasn't been brought up but a sul'dam can not be stilled unless they have "stepped over" the line and actually channeled themselves. Until they do that there is nothing to sever.

 

I think you are very wrong there.

 

Per RJ

 

Interview: Sep 3rd, 2005

DragonCon Report - Emma (Verbatim)

Question

 

Since sul'dam have abilities normally associated with channelers only, do they also slow?

Robert Jordan

 

No, not unless they actually begin to channel. Slowing is a function of actually channeling. If you have the ability to learn, and you never learn to channel, you are not going to slow, you will age at a normal fashion. Sul'dam are women who can learn and as they develop the affinity, as they have been doing this for a little while, they begin to slide toward the ability to channel, but they never step over. I believe I have someone say that one of these women felt almost as if she should be able to channel, but not quite. They are getting closer and closer to the brink but they will never step over without conscious effort.

 

 

Knife of Dreams tour San Jose, CA 28 October 2005 - Frenzy reporting

 

Frenzy: Can a person who hasn't actively channeled yet be severed or stilled?

RJ: (paraphrased) "No, you have to have something to take away something, so a person has to have an active connection to the Source to be able to have it cut."

[Morden]

hmm that is interesting then, seems like a massive oversight in some ways, because by that logic Suian and Leanne should have been able to use Moghedian to channel, as it wouldnt be them doing it.

 

afterall they wouldnt be channeling only using her to controlling the flows. So why didnt it work like that?

[Morden]

actually thinking about it, I wonder if an A'dam would work on someone new to being a sul'dam, Infact I think that it would quite likely take a few years until they begin to see the flows themselves, but I suppose that is a whole different discussion. i.e Can you see the flows without being vulnerable to severing because if you can see them, then theres something to sever even if you arent choosing to use it. the door is there to be opened, so surely it can be blocked?

[Suttree]

actually thinking about it, I wonder if an A'dam would work on someone new to being a sul'dam, Infact I think that it would quite likely take a few years until they begin to see the flows themselves, but I suppose that is a whole different discussion. i.e Can you see the flows without being vulnerable to severing because if you can see them, then theres something to sever even if you arent choosing to use it. the door is there to be opened, so surely it can be blocked?

 

Yeah per RJ only sul'dam that have worked with the A'dam for a very long time can be held. They have to be right on the edge of stepping over...

 

As for Siuan and Leane it seems pretty obvious that they couldn't because there connection has been cut. The reason they could sense something however is because the potential was still there for their already active link to the OP to be reconnected. In the matter of someone being burned out such as Setalle Anan, she could not feel anything because there is nothing left to fix. The potential is gone.

[fuzz1717]

As for Siuan and Leane it seems pretty obvious that they couldn't because there connection has been cut. The reason they could sense something however is because the potential was still there for their already active link to the OP to be reconnected. In the matter of someone being burned out such as Setalle Anan, she could not feel anything because there is nothing left to fix. The potential is gone.

 

That raises an interesting question. Can Setalle be Healed by Damer Flinn or Nyn? Or has the ability truly been burned out of her?

WH Ch 29 seems to provide an answer to this, as Setalle and Joline attempt to link using the a'dam. In the end, Setalle and Joline walk about two steps and Joline collapses. This is contrary to LoC (prologue) where Siuan and Leane attempt to use the A'dam on Moghedien. THey say they can feel the emotions of Moghedien, but can't touch the source through her.

 

However, we never really get a POV from Setalle saying that she could or could not feel Joline's emotions, and Siuan and Leane never tried to move with Moghedien. There are some differences between the two circumstances, but I am personally in the boat that Setalle will be Healed (or at least can potentially be). Maybe its just because I like Setalle, but imo I think that, in the words of Nyn, Anything short of Death can be Healed.

[Byzantine279]

It is a worse wound, Fuzz, but it has not yet been answered if it is beyond healing.

[Guest alisondale]

I've never posted before so pardon me if this is the wrong thread to bring this up and maybe my point is obvious, but I just finished rereading Avienda's second trip through the glass pillars. As I read it, in the future she sees the Aiel start a war with the Seanchan in large part bc wise one damane are still captive. I'm not 100% sure where her visions come from I don't think they are set in stone but are what will be if the DO is defeated and Avienda hadn't taken that second trip. This would mean many of the things she sees are likely to happen but unlike Min's viewings if this is a possible future tied to Avienda's decisions or beliefs, she may be able to change it. I don't have the direct quote but during one of the flash forwards they mention that the old empress (ie Tuon) seemed reasonable and might have made a deal or changed her mind but her successor is not so reasonable. Which I read to mean that Tuon could eventually be convinced to give up the A'dam. With this knowledge I think that Avi is the most likely candidate to make a difference in the future of the A'dam. If she hadn't gone back through the pillars the Seanchan will still be using the A’dam after the Last Battle but that is a future I think she will try desperately to avoid.

[Vardar]

As for Siuan and Leane it seems pretty obvious that they couldn't because there connection has been cut. The reason they could sense something however is because the potential was still there for their already active link to the OP to be reconnected. In the matter of someone being burned out such as Setalle Anan, she could not feel anything because there is nothing left to fix. The potential is gone.

 

That raises an interesting question. Can Setalle be Healed by Damer Flinn or Nyn? Or has the ability truly been burned out of her?

WH Ch 29 seems to provide an answer to this, as Setalle and Joline attempt to link using the a'dam. In the end, Setalle and Joline walk about two steps and Joline collapses. This is contrary to LoC (prologue) where Siuan and Leane attempt to use the A'dam on Moghedien. THey say they can feel the emotions of Moghedien, but can't touch the source through her.

 

However, we never really get a POV from Setalle saying that she could or could not feel Joline's emotions, and Siuan and Leane never tried to move with Moghedien. There are some differences between the two circumstances, but I am personally in the boat that Setalle will be Healed (or at least can potentially be). Maybe its just because I like Setalle, but imo I think that, in the words of Nyn, Anything short of Death can be Healed.

 

I personally don't think this'll ever be answered, which is sad because I wish to know.