Few random questions

[KefkaPalazzo]

1. What was going on with Verin at the cleansing? Particularly, her own POV where she ran into Graendal. She thinks (like the Verin we all know and love) that a captured Forsaken would be an excellent subject for study. The problem is, she uses the word "Forsaken" in her own head, in exactly the way Darkfriends don't. Why? I mean, if RJ wanted to hide that she was Black the whole time, why risk it at all with an encounter with one of them? We knew Elza was Black, so why switch Verin and Elza's places at the cleansing? She refers to them as Chosen in her conversation with Egwene, so why not in her own head?

 

2. As far as the Forsaken in general, why bother with disguises? Everyone who knows them is either a forsaken himself, or pushing up grass, since the daisies they WERE pushing up have long since died. The only ones we know of using a constant disguise were the pale, blonde Graendal living in Arad Domon, where ark skin and hair are common, and Mesaana, possibly putting on the ageless look in the Tower. The others we've seen don't. Sammeal, Be'lal, Semirhage (except for a brief stint as Tuon), Asmodean, and Rahvin all walked around without a disguise other than a new name, rather poorly chosen. (the English-sounding "Brend" in the obviously Greek Illian? Really?) So why is it constantly used as a defense for any theory that Character X is actually Forsaken X when they look nothing alike?

 

I confess, I'm actually thinking about the Taimdin theory here. We know what Taim looks like. We know what Moridin looks like. They look nothing alike. IMO, if he looks like anybody, he looks like Demandred. (this is part of what spurred on the Taimandred theory, LTT thought he recognized him) So, if Taim is, in fact, Moridin, he MUST be using a disguise. In TGS when Rand meets Moridin in TAR, he recognizes Moridin as "that guy's face that pops into my head whenever I channel", and not "that guy who I've placed in charge of hundreds, if not thousands of walking weapons of mass destruction". The problem here is why.

 

When Taim was introduced, NOBODY could have suspected he was not who he said he was, regardless of which face he was wearing. Not LTT, since he doesn't know the reincarnated Forsaken by sight, not even us, since we didn't know Moridin existed until book 7 (Although he might have existed in book 6, but we were only able to figure that out rather recently). So what difference would it make whether or not a disguise was used?

 

And honestly, if it was a disguise, it wasn't a very good one, since Bashere, who has been chasing him for god knows how long, didn't recognize him as Taim. I do think that there is something very wrong with Taim, but I don't think he's anyone in disguise. I personally subscribe to the "New Forsaken" theory.

[Barid Bel Medar]

1. What was going on with Verin at the cleansing? Particularly, her own POV where she ran into Graendal. She thinks (like the Verin we all know and love) that a captured Forsaken would be an excellent subject for study. The problem is, she uses the word "Forsaken" in her own head, in exactly the way Darkfriends don't. Why? I mean, if RJ wanted to hide that she was Black the whole time, why risk it at all with an encounter with one of them? We knew Elza was Black, so why switch Verin and Elza's places at the cleansing? She refers to them as Chosen in her conversation with Egwene, so why not in her own head?

 

2. As far as the Forsaken in general, why bother with disguises? Everyone who knows them is either a forsaken himself, or pushing up grass, since the daisies they WERE pushing up have long since died. The only ones we know of using a constant disguise were the pale, blonde Graendal living in Arad Domon, where ark skin and hair are common, and Mesaana, possibly putting on the ageless look in the Tower. The others we've seen don't. Sammeal, Be'lal, Semirhage (except for a brief stint as Tuon), Asmodean, and Rahvin all walked around without a disguise other than a new name, rather poorly chosen. (the English-sounding "Brend" in the obviously Greek Illian? Really?) So why is it constantly used as a defense for any theory that Character X is actually Forsaken X when they look nothing alike?

 

I confess, I'm actually thinking about the Taimdin theory here. We know what Taim looks like. We know what Moridin looks like. They look nothing alike. IMO, if he looks like anybody, he looks like Demandred. (this is part of what spurred on the Taimandred theory, LTT thought he recognized him) So, if Taim is, in fact, Moridin, he MUST be using a disguise. In TGS when Rand meets Moridin in TAR, he recognizes Moridin as "that guy's face that pops into my head whenever I channel", and not "that guy who I've placed in charge of hundreds, if not thousands of walking weapons of mass destruction". The problem here is why.

 

When Taim was introduced, NOBODY could have suspected he was not who he said he was, regardless of which face he was wearing. Not LTT, since he doesn't know the reincarnated Forsaken by sight, not even us, since we didn't know Moridin existed until book 7 (Although he might have existed in book 6, but we were only able to figure that out rather recently). So what difference would it make whether or not a disguise was used?

 

And honestly, if it was a disguise, it wasn't a very good one, since Bashere, who has been chasing him for god knows how long, didn't recognize him as Taim. I do think that there is something very wrong with Taim, but I don't think he's anyone in disguise. I personally subscribe to the "New Forsaken" theory.

 

1. It was no problem, Graendal doesnt use Darkfriends, she wouldnt recognize Verin.

 

2. Not sure your point here. The Forsaken use diguises for various reasons. They sometimes impersonate people of power. Eg. Graendal disguised as the old woman. No-one would suspect her. The main reason that people speculate the Forsaken are people in disguise is that impersonating someone of power, like Taim or a king of a nation makes manipulation much easier. Instead of just turning up out of the blue as some random person, they dispose of someone and take their place. It makes perfect sense.

 

3. Again, i dont see the point you wish to make. Moriidn wouldnt be in a disguise for the reader. Its supposed to be a story as lifelike as possible, it is silly to say "well the reader wouldnt know, or it was obvious to the reader, so it cant be". The characters do things regarding the world of the Wheel. Now I am not a supporter of the Taim: Moridin theory, but it would make sense, much like point two. To avoid suspicion, would it not be better to pose as a famous False Dragon who has taught himself how to channel, so he has a perfectly good reason for infiltrating Rand's people, than turn up as a random man who knows how to channel and rises to the head of the BT. Rand says himself, look for people who learn to fast, might be Forsaken. Of course, if the Forsaken has a plausable backstory, such as being Taim, well, it makes his job much easier.

 

 

Hopefully this helps

[yoniy0]

As to Verin, you're right; she did refer to them as Chosen when she revealed herself to Egwene. Most likely, RJ was deflecting suspicion, but it's believable at the very least, since she isn't Black through and through.

 

And as to disguises, Moridin could've assumed a time would come when Rand will come to know his present face, in which he might still wish to maintain his Taim persona. I'm not saying that I believe that, only that you can't dismiss the theory merely because disguises aren't common among the Forsaken.

[Val Mickey]

That's why Taimidin is only a theory. Plus, if Moridin is masquerading as Taim, he's playing another game, one he doesn't want Rand and co. or even the other Chosen to figure out. I personally don't like that theory either.

[Sid]

Verin isn't actually a Darkfriend. I'm sure she doesn't think of them as 'Chosen' and doesn't refer to them as such except with other members of the BA or Darkfriends. With Egwene in TGS, she does say 'Chosen' and 'Great Lord' to her, but that could have just been to drive the point home that she was affiliated with the Black Ajah and not kidding around (her time was short).

 

I do seriously hope that Egwene shares some of the information with Rand when they meet again. You know, the stuff that's crucial to fighting the Last Battle in a way that nobody expects.

[Luckers]

1. Several of the Black Ajah have referred to the Chosen as Forsaken in thought, whilst using the word Chosen in speach. Liandrin I believe specifically thinks about it at one point. They are required to call the Forsaken the Chosen, but in their heads lingers the name they grew up with.