Could Rand really have done it?

[Byzantine279]

I wonder if Rand really could have destroyed the wheel, we know he had more than enough power, but that is not what i am questioning.

 

He is ta'veren and thus is bound to the wheel very tightly, every time he does something out of line he is rapidly and forcefully pulled back into line.

We know this has happened to him several times in the past, including when he tried to escape his fate as the dragon reborn until the pattern finally forced it be revealed with the battle in the sky at Falme.

 

It is conceivable then that every action he ever takes is under the pattern's direct watch, so the question becomes could he really have done it? Would the pattern, at the last possible second with no other way out, simply have written him out of it before he could destroy the wheel? Is it possible that his revelation in VoG was the pattern's last ditch response to stopping Rand short of killing him? (even with that much power if he had "happened" to slip and fall into the magma pool he still would have died.)

 

We know that people in Randland have freewill to some extent, but I don't think the pattern would ever let someone destroy it, and for any human being that is exactly what it would have to be doing for it to happen. The pattern would literally have to write in its own destruction, and for some reason i don't think it is going to destroy itself.

 

And then this question extends to the DO himself. We know that to seal him Lew Therin had to touch him with weaves. Would the dark one have to "touch" the pattern to destroy it. And if so, then wouldn't the DO be binding himself by the pattern's will (its own version of the taint, i suppose) and end up defeating himself in victory?

[FarShainMael]

Interesting points.

 

One thought that occurs is this: is Rand still ta'veren? AIUI, this is not a permanent state.

 

Think about the last really powerful ta'veren, Artur Hawkwing. He was manipulated by Ishy, and the Pattern seemingly did nothing to stop it; perhaps it had given up on him. Did the Pattern lose its grip on Rand when he channelled the TP?

 

As to the DO: if the Pattern could maintain itself against the DO of its own nature, would it need ta'veren?

 

Or are ta'veren the Pattern incarnate?

[MikeRiley]

The pattern probably wanted Seanchan consolidated. Ishamael's actions might be in favor of the Dark but they're still tied to the pattern, whatever he wants.

 

I think every character has free will, but like the Rhuidean rings show the Wise Ones, there are key events in each person's life that will happen no matter what. This doesn't make them invincible the way Elayne thinks she will be. The pattern basically provides the blueprint that will be followed if things go as planned. When they don't, it weaves a work-around. Anything and everything could happen between those points that would cause the next one to not happen (the person dies).

 

Could Rand even have done it, without the pattern there? I know he was holding a massive amount of the power but the world is still a pretty big place.

[Byzantine279]

Well, if the amount of balefire to destroy the palace made the pattern shudder, the amount he could have made in that state would literally have cut the world in half, and if he fired it at tar valon, well, he would be burning back thousands of threads for hours. That is probably far more than the pattern could have taken from how the effect of balefire was explained.

[MikeRiley]

During the War of Power whole cities were burned from the pattern on both sides and the world still survived. We're talking one case of it now, no matter how strong it is I don't think it's the same. I don't think the amount of power he held would have been sufficient enough to compare.

[Byzantine279]

Perhaps, but remember how much the pattern shuddered just from him burning a couple hundred people out, with much much weaker balefire.

 

The war of the power didnt have the CK as weapons, their power is incomprehensible. I suspect that rand could have created a burst of balefire large enough to burn the world in half, and that alone would likely be enough... and even if he couldn't quite destroy it, the dark one himself would have finished the job, after all with Rand dead no one can stop him (as far as we are aware).

 

rememebr how in his battle with asmodean without even trying to they created and destroyed mountains, tore much of the city apart... and that was only the small fraction of the attacks that were deflected, and they were not meant to do that, imagine what they could have done if they had been trying.

 

The spine of the world was created in the breaking, we can only assume whoever made it had a sa'angreal with them, and its power wouldn't have been as strong as the ck, so imagine what the ck could do alone...

 

Anyway, that isn't the main point i was trying to make, my point is: How much control does the wheel really have?

 

 

I think it might be something along the lines of the DO and Creator are playing a game. Every time one of them makes a move the Wheel, who is the ref, doesn't like it gets to change the move to be whatever it feels like. That means its rather impossible for the DO to win if he really does want to destroy the wheel, since the wheel could simply have every last one of his minions suddenly have heart attacks for no apparent reason (and don't say it doesnt work that way, who knows what it would do to save itself).

[Random Man]

I'm pretty sure that since the DO exists outside the Pattern, he isn't influenced by the Pattern apart from being imprisoned by it. In fact, the nature of his influence (impossible things happening, bubbles of evil, etc) suggest that his influence remains an outside force and doesn't actually become a part of the Pattern, and the Pattern is forced to cope with it as best it can. For this reason, only the DO has the power to break the Wheel and destroy the Pattern (although I can't help but wonder why he's constrained by time -- unless he is Time itself as I've seen suggested).

 

I think you're right about Rand, though. As a part of the Pattern, he can't step outside of it and cannot destroy it. Something would have stopped him, whether it be something he did willingly, or an albatross flying overhead suddenly has a heart attack and hits him, knocking the Choden Kal out of his hand, or a freak windstorm spits up sand in his face so he can't see to weave.

 

Loial explained to Rand in tEoTW about how sometimes the individual makes the choices within limits allowed by the Pattern, but sometimes the Pattern does the choosing. In Verin's case with Mat, unless she made up the whole story, she was literally forced by the Pattern to go to him, even when she made every attempt she could think of to get to where she wanted to go.

[Byzantine279]

Perhaps.

 

But then the question becomes what does the DO need to succeed? we know just having the hole opened is no enough, or he would have won in the AOL. And if it requires actions from his followers, are they not constrained by the pattern themselves?

[Duskfire]

I'm pretty sure that since the DO exists outside the Pattern, he isn't influenced by the Pattern apart from being imprisoned by it. In fact, the nature of his influence (impossible things happening, bubbles of evil, etc) suggest that his influence remains an outside force and doesn't actually become a part of the Pattern, and the Pattern is forced to cope with it as best it can. For this reason, only the DO has the power to break the Wheel and destroy the Pattern (although I can't help but wonder why he's constrained by time -- unless he is Time itself as I've seen suggested).

 

I think you're right about Rand, though. As a part of the Pattern, he can't step outside of it and cannot destroy it. Something would have stopped him, whether it be something he did willingly, or an albatross flying overhead suddenly has a heart attack and hits him, knocking the Choden Kal out of his hand, or a freak windstorm spits up sand in his face so he can't see to weave.

 

Loial explained to Rand in tEoTW about how sometimes the individual makes the choices within limits allowed by the Pattern, but sometimes the Pattern does the choosing. In Verin's case with Mat, unless she made up the whole story, she was literally forced by the Pattern to go to him, even when she made every attempt she could think of to get to where she wanted to go.

 

I dont know if the Dark One is as outside the Pattern as he seems to be. After all, if he was truly outside the Pattern, then in theory any orders he gives to the Forsaken would not be be woven into by the Pattern, yet we have seen just that happen with Mins auras and Egwenes dreams that involve the Forsaken. Not to mention all the Foretellings and whatnot. For instance, Rands blood is meant to free people from the Shadow, yet how does the Pattern know that since it involves a being that is in theory outsode of it? Personally, I think the DO is just as constrained by the Pattern as eveyrone else, perhaps to a lesser extent. And thats one of the reasons he craves to break free it.

 

Its possible to change your fate; no one is fated to turn evil, so Demandred and whatnot joining the Shadow would have done just that. I think it was like this as well; Rand had the power to destroy the world, and the only thing that could have stopped him was himself. My way of thinking is that the Pattern doesn't have intelligence, it cant make decisions on the fly. It can tweak certain situations to provide luck for the ta`veren, but on the whole it is just a mechanism that spins the same thread over and over again. A giant supercomputer. What Rand was about to do couldn't be tweaked; and part of the whole point of it was the free will aspect of it.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Perhaps.

 

But then the question becomes what does the DO need to succeed? we know just having the hole opened is no enough, or he would have won in the AOL. And if it requires actions from his followers, are they not constrained by the pattern themselves?

 

 

The pattern doesnt work like that. It is not an active thing.

 

It spins out Taveren and such to help correct it. It is not a sentient being. It cant sense trouble and say, oh, better wipe this person out. If things go bad, Taveren are spun out to correct stuff, but thats about the extent ofthe patterns direct involvement.

 

It cannot just stop people from doing things, its not a god. Taveren are pulled by their effects on the pattern, they also pull people around them. Normal people however, have relatively free wills.

 

else there would be no story, the pattern would jsut strike down darkfriends and strike down Lanfear as she opened the bore.

 

I dont know if the Dark One is as outside the Pattern as he seems to be. After all, if he was truly outside the Pattern, then in theory any orders he gives to the Forsaken would not be be woven into by the Pattern, yet we have seen just that happen with Mins auras and Egwenes dreams that involve the Forsaken. Not to mention all the Foretellings and whatnot. For instance, Rands blood is meant to free people from the Shadow, yet how does the Pattern know that since it involves a being that is in theory outsode of it? Personally, I think the DO is just as constrained by the Pattern as eveyrone else, perhaps to a lesser extent. And thats one of the reasons he craves to break free it.

 

This, to be honest, is invalid. The DO is sealed outside the pattern at the beginning of time. He can however, effect the pattern, we have seen it. He is poewwerful enough to destroy the pattern (if free) he can easily manipulate it, and give the Forsaken their orders. Look at all the Ghosts and bubbles of evil, its the DO touching the world.

 

Think of it as a person locked outside a window. If there is a hole made in that window, they can reach in and move stuff around on the other side.

 

As for why the DO is constrained by time. First of all, who said time was the same as the pattern? the DO exists outside the pattern, but that doesnt mean he exists beyond time istelf, or else, theoretically, he would not exist at all.

 

Also, this is only regarding the Forsaken reincarnation. They are human and a part of the pattern, while the DO can manipulate the pattern, his is contained by the seals and he is not fully free, thus he has constrained power over the pattern, else he would have destroyed it utterly already.

 

Again, look at it as someone on the other side of a window. With the hole, they can reach in and move things around on the other side, but some items are too far from the persons reach to grab, such as the chair at the opposite end of the room to the window.

 

IF however, the DO breaks the prison, (The window) he will get inside the pattern (the room) and be able to freely mess with things.

[Duskfire]

This, to be honest, is invalid. The DO is sealed outside the pattern at the beginning of time. He can however, effect the pattern, we have seen it. He is poewwerful enough to destroy the pattern (if free) he can easily manipulate it, and give the Forsaken their orders. Look at all the Ghosts and bubbles of evil, its the DO touching the world.

 

Think of it as a person locked outside a window. If there is a hole made in that window, they can reach in and move stuff around on the other side.

 

As for why the DO is constrained by time. First of all, who said time was the same as the pattern? the DO exists outside the pattern, but that doesnt mean he exists beyond time istelf, or else, theoretically, he would not exist at all.

 

Also, this is only regarding the Forsaken reincarnation. They are human and a part of the pattern, while the DO can manipulate the pattern, his is contained by the seals and he is not fully free, thus he has constrained power over the pattern, else he would have destroyed it utterly already.

 

Again, look at it as someone on the other side of a window. With the hole, they can reach in and move things around on the other side, but some items are too far from the persons reach to grab, such as the chair at the opposite end of the room to the window.

 

IF however, the DO breaks the prison, (The window) he will get inside the pattern (the room) and be able to freely mess with things.

 

Yeah but my point is if the DO is as outside the Pattern as everyone thinks, how is the Pattern able to work his influence into its weavings? How is the Pattern able to predict the DO can do this or that? If the DO doesn't have a thread at all, then anything he does to the Wheel is an outside influence and thus shouldn't be able to be predicted or woven in any way, and yet the Pattern does exactly that. Thus, the Pattern must have some sort of hold, even a vague one, on the DO.

[Barid Bel Medar]

This, to be honest, is invalid. The DO is sealed outside the pattern at the beginning of time. He can however, effect the pattern, we have seen it. He is poewwerful enough to destroy the pattern (if free) he can easily manipulate it, and give the Forsaken their orders. Look at all the Ghosts and bubbles of evil, its the DO touching the world.

 

Think of it as a person locked outside a window. If there is a hole made in that window, they can reach in and move stuff around on the other side.

 

As for why the DO is constrained by time. First of all, who said time was the same as the pattern? the DO exists outside the pattern, but that doesnt mean he exists beyond time istelf, or else, theoretically, he would not exist at all.

 

Also, this is only regarding the Forsaken reincarnation. They are human and a part of the pattern, while the DO can manipulate the pattern, his is contained by the seals and he is not fully free, thus he has constrained power over the pattern, else he would have destroyed it utterly already.

 

Again, look at it as someone on the other side of a window. With the hole, they can reach in and move things around on the other side, but some items are too far from the persons reach to grab, such as the chair at the opposite end of the room to the window.

 

IF however, the DO breaks the prison, (The window) he will get inside the pattern (the room) and be able to freely mess with things.

 

Yeah but my point is if the DO is as outside the Pattern as everyone thinks, how is the Pattern able to work his influence into its weavings? How is the Pattern able to predict the DO can do this or that? If the DO doesn't have a thread at all, then anything he does to the Wheel is an outside influence and thus shouldn't be able to be predicted or woven in any way, and yet the Pattern does exactly that. Thus, the Pattern must have some sort of hold, even a vague one, on the DO.

 

I am not sure what EXACTLY you are refering to, but the pattern "predicts" the DO movements because the DO touches the pattern.

 

If I can go back to the person in the window analogy.

 

If they are just looking in, then you cant predict what the person is going to do. But you have the dark one constantly trying to stick his hand in. So the pattern "sees" the Do's movement and effects on the pattern and acts accordingly.

 

Remember that the DO is constantly putting his hand through that window. He is always trying to touch the pattern. If he was just sitting back not bothering to get inside the pattern, then the pattern would have no effect at all.

 

 

Not sure if this answers the question, if not, perhaps provide an example?

 

Edit: Also, you could see the DO as an invading disease. The pattern is the body, it erects defences against the invasion.

[yoniy0]

The Pattern doesn't do anything. It IS existence itself. It's the Wheel that does the weaving.

And, perhaps, the DO is capable of weaving a few threads into it as well, or at least corrupting threads as they're being woven (when he isn't completely Sealed away, that is).

 

As to the original question, I don't think Rand distinguishes between the world and the Pattern. He claims to be able to destroy the entire world with the CK, and I tend to believe him. Whether the Pattern could sustain that and go on, I don't think we're meant to know. Either way, what's the difference for any of the people we care about?

[Byzantine279]

Ok, then replace "pattern" with "wheel". Perhaps yon, but we really do not the extent of his influence, or if he can weave into it the destruction of the wheel (as we know the wheel does defend itself, at the very least using Ta'veren.

[Duskfire]

I am not sure what EXACTLY you are refering to, but the pattern "predicts" the DO movements because the DO touches the pattern.

 

If I can go back to the person in the window analogy.

 

If they are just looking in, then you cant predict what the person is going to do. But you have the dark one constantly trying to stick his hand in. So the pattern "sees" the Do's movement and effects on the pattern and acts accordingly.

 

Remember that the DO is constantly putting his hand through that window. He is always trying to touch the pattern. If he was just sitting back not bothering to get inside the pattern, then the pattern would have no effect at all.

 

 

Not sure if this answers the question, if not, perhaps provide an example?

 

Edit: Also, you could see the DO as an invading disease. The pattern is the body, it erects defences against the invasion.

 

What your saying is true, however when you take everything into account, the Wheel is basically putting things into position to defy the Dark One before the DO actually does anything. To use your window analogue, I (the wheel) are moving the toys around to a location that the DO can't touch even before the DO reaches in. So how can the Pattern react against something that hasnt even acted yet, if it has no thread?

[Ozzie_aiel]

I don't think its possible for Rand to break the Wheel.

 

Destroying the Pattern, yes, but for a thread to destroy the spinning wheel itself is incomprehensible.

 

Imagine a spinning wheel, now, burn a lot of the threads out, it messes up the thing that was in it, can make it callapse on itself, but the spinning wheel is still working.

 

The DO, of the other hand, is outside the pattern, outside the wheel, so if he becomes powerful enough, can simply kick it til it breaks

[Barid Bel Medar]

I am not sure what EXACTLY you are refering to, but the pattern "predicts" the DO movements because the DO touches the pattern.

 

If I can go back to the person in the window analogy.

 

If they are just looking in, then you cant predict what the person is going to do. But you have the dark one constantly trying to stick his hand in. So the pattern "sees" the Do's movement and effects on the pattern and acts accordingly.

 

Remember that the DO is constantly putting his hand through that window. He is always trying to touch the pattern. If he was just sitting back not bothering to get inside the pattern, then the pattern would have no effect at all.

 

 

Not sure if this answers the question, if not, perhaps provide an example?

 

Edit: Also, you could see the DO as an invading disease. The pattern is the body, it erects defences against the invasion.

 

What your saying is true, however when you take everything into account, the Wheel is basically putting things into position to defy the Dark One before the DO actually does anything. To use your window analogue, I (the wheel) are moving the toys around to a location that the DO can't touch even before the DO reaches in. So how can the Pattern react against something that hasnt even acted yet, if it has no thread?

 

 

A vaild question.

This is how i see it.

 

Instead of the wheel and pattern being abble to read the DO's "thread", it reads the Do's "absence" of a thread. Like putting a black marker in a stack of white markers. The black (the absence of a thread in the pattern) is easy to make out, because it is so different.

 

AS I said in previous posts, the DO is always sticking his hand in that window. If he just left it alone, then the pattern would not be able to "see" him. But since he is always sticking his hand in, the pattern can anticipate the "absence" that is the DO's touch.

 

I hope that made a bit of sense.

[Dream]

What your saying is true, however when you take everything into account, the Wheel is basically putting things into position to defy the Dark One before the DO actually does anything. To use your window analogue, I (the wheel) are moving the toys around to a location that the DO can't touch even before the DO reaches in. So how can the Pattern react against something that hasnt even acted yet, if it has no thread?

 

At the moment of creation the Creator trapped the Dark One outside of the Pattern. So the Dark One is not part of the Pattern. But the Pattern clearly is able resist the Dark One's touch. We can conclude that at the moment of creation the Creator designed the Wheel such that it would be able to protect itself against foreign intrusion (the Dark One). So it is actually the Creator, and not the Wheel, that has these checks in place to combat the Dark One. The Wheel is simply the instrument the Creator is using against the Dark One.

 

Confounding the issue further is the fact that the Dark One is trapped outside of the Pattern until someone from within pokes a hole through it. Therefore, it is (IMO) also the design of the Creator that the Dark One is able to partially access the Pattern at certain times. I assume just to tease the Dark One. What an ass.

 

As to whether Rand could have destroyed the Pattern/Wheel: No, he couldn't. I further suggest that he did try and the Wheel did intervene, if in a more subtle and premeditated way. Love is what stopped him, and the Wheel's given him plenty of that. I mean, how do three completely different strangers suddenly fall in love with him and decide to share him?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Not sure if my explainations are exactly correct, but it is correct that the DO is not inside the pattern. Flat out, no way.

 

 

Netherlands tour 7 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting

 

RJ: Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are apart from that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

 

So while i might not have got the exact mechanics right, the DO is outside the pattern. The Wheel of Time is a different matter, but unaffected by the pattern.